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Thread: Federal minimum wage rate.

  1. #231
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    Re: Federal minimum wage rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Supposn View Post
    James972, I'm usually in agreement when I begin reading or hearing libertarians; but as they continue on, I begin shaking my head in disagreement with them. They continue until I cannot differentiate between the positions of libertarians or anarchists.
    Liberty is one of many valid concepts that contradict each other when put in practice. The concepts themselves are not less valid, but the differences in practice must be resolved. The minimum wage rate is such a concept.
    "Concept" is the wrong word. Liberty is a value, unlike a minimum wage. People who support a minimum wage do so because they believe it is a means to another end.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Supposn View Post
    Due to the concept of wage differentials, a definite legal or an indefinite market-determined minimum wage rate affects all the nation's wage scales. If a nation has nothing in place that serves the function of our federal minimum wage rate, that nation I suppose is experiencing a greater extent of poverty than otherwise.
    The name of this policy, the minimum wage, is somewhat begging the question. A satire would ask for a 30 dollars an hour minimum wage so that everyone can claim their time is worth a lot while sitting at home and collecting their welfare checks because all employers deeply disagree with Congress on the value of their time. The relevant question, however, is what would happen if you had a considerably smaller hike in today's market.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Supposn View Post
    The federal minimum wage rate does not reduce competition, but it does contribute to reducing the extent of poverty in the USA.
    Disagreement over this point is a very big part of the problem.

    If you set a minimum wage and the critiques are right, two unfortunate problems emerge. First of all, hours worked might be reduced among the less skilled and poorest of people. On net balance, though some may earn money at a higher rate, they may end up poorer. Second of all, working fewer hours or having to spend more time unemployed also means less experienced workers will have a harder time climbing up the ladder. If either of them is true, not only are you engaged in infringing upon individual liberties, you are also hurting poor people. Combine this with social programs and you also get the problem that you might contribute to trapping people in a state of dependency.

    None of this sounds good. Of course, it's possible that none of the above happens for entire hosts of reasons. One might be that you need a very large minimum wage hike to see it happen on any significant scale. Another might be that businesses react by cutting other things. Another still might be that there is something to JohnfrmCleavelan's claim about boosting demand in some windows of prices for a minimum wage. If none of it is true, then the issue boils down to:

    Is it the government's place to engage in such activity? Or, perhaps, a more nuanced question would be how far can it go (which includes doing nothing and thus subsumes the previous question).

    Now, you have a tension between competing goals: you have individual liberties, the desire to provide a good ladder for poor people to climb out of poverty, and the desire to limit the hardships of our poorest citizens. I think every sane person would agree all three goals are laudable, though people on the right would say the latter two, especially the last one, is primarily a personal responsibility of private citizens and not the duty of the government. That's a point I heard Dennis Prager make, for example, that you have a deep moral responsibility as a person to extend a helping hand to the less fortunate. He also said that no conservative would argue there is no place for any government intervention (e.g., paying for people without insurance who walk into an emergency room), but that the whole point is you shouldn't want to foist on others your job to take care of yourself, of your family and of your community. Ben Shapiro also made that same point. It's the expansive state substituting itself on mass for individual actions that is troubling them, not the helping per se. Both of them also argue that this makes for less moral people -- character development can then be appended to the list I made above of goals existing in tension.
    Last edited by TheEconomist; 09-14-19 at 10:00 PM.

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    Re: Federal minimum wage rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Supposn View Post
    James972, disregarding the hyperbole, due to suggesting that the entire world's individual persons and corporations, all have equal influence upon USA's economy,
    there are 200 million corporations worldwide wide competing[ with varying degrees of influence] to survive by pleasing or loving us. Republican capitalism is like heaven on earth. Liberal govt is the only thing that can interfere with this saintly process by which corporations must compete to raise our stand of living at the fasted possible rate. Instead of flapping your gums why not admit you have nothing to contribute to raising the worlds standard of living yet presume to be critical of those actually in the arena trying to help their fellow man.

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    Re: Federal minimum wage rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Supposn View Post

    The constitution of the United States does not as you imply, limit government as a, and certainly not as the “primary evil in human history”.
    You have to lie to maintain your image as a real American don't you? Do you want to face your maker and tell him the lie under which you operated for so long?? Think it through man. In fact Constitution limits govt to a few enumerated powers and reserves the rest for the states and the people. You are embarrassingly ignorant.

    Here is Madison himself:

    "The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specific objectives. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."


    James Madison in Federalist paper NO. 45: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce."

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    Re: Federal minimum wage rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Supposn View Post
    James972, ... The constitution of the United States does not as you imply, limit government as a, and certainly not as the “primary evil in human history”. It does divide our federal government into three major branches, With the intention of preventing tyrannical factions from capturing and retaining complete power of all three branches. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by James972 View Post
    You have to lie to maintain your image as a real American don't you? Do you want to face your maker and tell him the lie under which you operated for so long?? Think it through man. In fact Constitution limits govt to a few enumerated powers and reserves the rest for the states and the people. You are embarrassingly ignorant. ...
    James972, the “powers” referred to within the tenth amendment of the United States Constitution are governing powers; the “United States” refers the U.S. federal government of the United States; the “states” it refers to are the U.S. state governments. The legal authority of each of those governments' powers, (including some state powers subordinate to federal powers), are derived from their governments' individual constitutions. My hope this this information unravels any confusion you have in regard to the U.S. Constitution's tenth amendment.

    Education, exposure to facts, and seeking truth are remedies to ignorance. Ignorance is curable. Lack of logic and unwillingness to seek the truth are among the symptoms indicating the condition of stupidity. Some people will remain stupid throughout their lifetimes.

    Respectfully, Supposn

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    Re: Federal minimum wage rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Supposn View Post
    . My hope this this information unravels any confusion you have in regard to the U.S. Constitution's tenth amendment.
    any reason to think I was confused about 10th????

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    Re: Federal minimum wage rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Supposn View Post
    The constitution of the United States does not as you imply, limit government as a, and certainly not as the “primary evil in human history”.
    This sentence seems to have been partly edited midway through. I'm going to assume you meant something along the lines of:

    The constitution of the United States does not, as you imply, limit the powers of the government. It certainly does not do so because it is considered to be the “primary evil in human history”.
    The US Constitution is absolutely intended to limit the power of the government. When you define what the government can and cannot do, you concede that there are limits to what it can legitimately do. In fact, the US Constitution is especially constraining on the capacity of the US government and of State governments. For example, all powers not explicitly granted to the federal government are left to the State, or to the people. Likewise, most rights appended to it are expressed as what the government cannot do. The government cannot establish a state religion, nor act in ways that would prevent you from expressing your views publicly or from petitioning the government. It cannot forbid you from bearing arms. It cannot design expedient trials based on mob rule.

    You may also contrast this with the French equivalent. In the United States, the law may not infringe upon your right to speech. In France, your right to speech may not infringe upon the law, per the Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen (1789). Therein lies the whole difference between the French and the American Revolutions: the French Revolution was led by people who sought the power to change society; the American Revolution was led by people who greatly feared that same power.

    Although I dislike the expression James used, it would be fair to say that the Founding Fathers judged the government to be a necessary evil. If the government was run by angels, there would not be a need for its powers to remain in check; and if the government ruled over angels, there would not be a need for a government. That was the kind of view they espoused.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Supposn View Post
    You have greater confidence in the decisions of those controlling corporations, I'm among those preferring we heed what President Eisenhower was familiar with, the “military-industrial complex”.
    I tend not to trust businessmen whom I have not met myself. What I tend to trust is the capacity in the vast majority of cases of markets to force them to attend to the desires of the many, even when the decisions are in practice made by a few. But to all rules there exist exceptions and the difficulty lies in making sure that if we grant authority to the government because we fear wealthy groups may be unduly influencing our lives, we do not merely substitute one group of tyrants for another.

    In other words, I prefer we heed the words of Locke. It is foolish to call on a lion able to eat us all so that he may fend off the foxes in our midst and free us from their bites.

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    Re: Federal minimum wage rate.

    TheEconomist, I never doubted there are limits to United State's governments' powers. I stated the Constitution of the United States does not state or imply government is the “primary evil in human history”. That seems to be James972 preference or opinion, rather than the U.S. Supreme Court's interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

    Respectfully, Supposn

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    Re: Federal minimum wage rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post

    The US Constitution is absolutely intended to limit the power of the government.
    Yes the Bill of Rights is is not there to prevent Girl Scouts from limiting your free speech, but rather so govt wont limit your free speech. Seems very very obvious but teaching the Bill of Rights and enumerated powers to a liberal is like teaching calculus to a gold fish. Sad!

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    Re: Federal minimum wage rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm Supposn View Post
    I stated the Constitution of the United States does not state or imply government is the “primary evil in human history”.
    if govt was not the primary evil in human history what caused all the murder war genocide in human history, the Girl Scouts?


    here is one of the founders talking of his love for govt:

    "We still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping at the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretenses for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without a tribute."

    -- Thomas Paine

    Thomas Jefferson:
    The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.

    ( notice that liberty and govt are presented as opposites) Any surprise that our liberal sped for Stalin and HItler and now love Sanders who honeymooned in USSr!!
    Last edited by James972; 09-19-19 at 09:08 PM.

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    Re: Federal minimum wage rate.

    James972, I suppose we both consider purchasing power of the nation's gross domestic product per capita as an indicator of the nation's current economic condition.

    I believe a nation's economic policy should promote their highest sustainable living standards; the purchasing power of the nation's median wage indicates both the current conditions of the middle income earners' and it somewhat reflects the nation's aggregsate living standards.

    If the purchasing power of the federal minimum wage rate is too poor, USA cannot have a better median wage rate and a better economy. We all do better when we all do better.

    Respectfully, Supposn

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