• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The problem of Capitalism

Do you agree that the main problem of Capitalism is of moral nature?


  • Total voters
    36
  • Poll closed .
Quadrini is interesting, gonna take some time, so I come back to that later. [/QUOTE]

If anyone wants to read his theoretical argument. Macroeconomic models often use a representative household, which is essentially the same as saying you can capture what is going on just by looking at the average household. A more formal proof treatment of this idea can be found in Krusell and Smith. They did a version of a typical simple DSGE model, but with infinitely many types of households and they don't find much difference with the representative household version. There is a reason for this. To get a whole distribution of people, you need them to face unique shocks and you need to not allow them to insure themselves perfectly against it. If you do only that, the only real motivation for wealth accumulation is self-insurance (i.e., they use savings as a buffer in case of unemployment). As such, everybody tends to bundle up in the middle of the wealth distribution.

To get more realistic effects and make the heterogeneity of households meaningful, you need to push people up or push people down. Welfare policies can radically cut the savings of poorer people in the model and opportunities to get higher returns that hinge on accumulating enough capital like entrepreneurship gives some people a reason to save more. Quadrini is an early example of the later. Moreover, as a small note, if I recall, he doesn't study the business cycle. He studies the cross-section of wealth, so he focuses on the steady-state distribution: people move up and down in the distribution, but the shape of the distribution remains the same one quarter after the next.

By that I mean low income. It's almost like pyramid scam. Also if you think chances to climb up and get better job, it's really hard for most folks and some other people just get those positions as birthright.

One issue with this picture is twofold. (1) I just showed you data indicating that depending on what kind of choices you make you effectively can move up the wealth ladder in the United States. (2) While I do not have the data, I do know Jordan Peterson, a UofT psychologist, often pointed out academic performances, as well as income, are highly correlated with IQ in places like Canada and the US. This indicates to me that there is some significant component of performance that influences life outcomes. And it is no wonder. If you own a business and you're too dumb to see someone can become extremely productive, some of your competitors might and there are only so many of those mistakes you can make before it starts being a drag on your bottom line.

You can't evaluate everything by using money as measurement, because there is some what you can't make for sale (social values mostly).

Actually, you can put a price tag on everything in a way that takes into account the behavior of people. The value you ascribe to anything is whatever you are disposed to forgo in order to acquire it. Your choices, because they involve sacrifices, implicitly put a price tag on everything. Moreover, the only way you're going to be able to aggregate different degrees of success in reaching the very many goals about which you care, including "social values," is by assigning them different weights and summing them up, or something tantamount to this. And that's what cost-benefit analysis does. That it expresses things in dollars or doughnuts is irrelevant.
 
Green Peace

Environmentalists group tend to put an infinite value on environmental protection. It does not take into account any of the preferences that people have. An example would be the issue of plastic bottles containing water. The convenience is that you can easily get cold water anywhere and carry it with you and that is in part why people do not just buy more permanent containers to carry around water they got from their tap. In their eyes, this is just another "bad habit" and it needs to be sacrificed. The translation is that they decide for you and everyone else what is valuable and what isn't, what is acceptable comfort and what is a wasteful luxury.

The reality is that there is a trade-off involved here between causing potential pollution problems and giving up on the convenience of readily available cold water. You can make a case that the environmental issue is poorly priced by the market. You can make that argument in the language of externalities, the tragedy of the commons or ill-defined property rights as you please. But you have to make this argument if you don't want to either put an infinite value on the environment or a null value on individual preferences.

And that's my problem with them. They were not trained to think about trade-offs and they very much talk in very authoritarian ways. It is the talk of "everything would be better off if I was a little dictator."

I also have a problem with radical environmentalists who are often caught making comments that are tantamount to treating human life as parasitic. Nice things like "Growth is the cancer of the Planet" (David Suzuki). To me, this is to be lumped in the same boat as Nazi propaganda. It is equally disgusting.
 
For you capitalism is something godly beautiful, but thing is that you count only what's relevant to our era what we are living. And even from our time we can find really ugly examples from china and still count it as capitalism. Like vaccine scandal.

China just switched to capitalism and instantly eliminated 40% of the entire planets poverty and saved another 60 million from slowly starving to death under libsocialism. Thats ugly??? or the greatest miracle in all of human history?? Your Marxist handlers would be pleased at the way you you ignore reason,
 
Question should be how middle class is doing in USA? Getting better over time? And quantity, % of working population can be counted as middle class?

We now have a libsocialist country so of course things are heading downhill. Liberal taxes, unions, deficits, regulations, and trade deals are helping to destroy the middle class.
 
Money is tool too and you can use it for good and bad. Same thing with capitalism,

The beauty of capitalism is if you don't use it for good (to please workers and customers) you go bankrupt. Capitalism is next to godliness.
 
The beauty of capitalism is if you don't use it for good (to please workers and customers) you go bankrupt. Capitalism is next to godliness.

Because you count bankrupt as self correction mechanism when it comes to morality, you don't see that capitalism can still be harmful in hands of careless people, who will sacrifice a lot to hoard more money. Capitalism isn't like science, but you seem to think it like it is. Also you can make bankrupts as long as it's not taking all your money, so it's just hit or miss for those.
 
China just switched to capitalism and instantly eliminated 40% of the entire planets poverty and saved another 60 million from slowly starving to death under libsocialism. Thats ugly??? or the greatest miracle in all of human history?? Your Marxist handlers would be pleased at the way you you ignore reason,

I'm not denying how much capitalism did in China, but for you capitalism is something nice without any possible down sides. When you can sell people too (there isn't any limit what you can sell, right?), you should think hard if it's ok. At point when you think it's not ok to sell people, you're applying something what's not built-in capitalism (by that I mean laissez-faire) - also it's possible that your picture about capitalism is something that differs from laissez-faire - because what you have there in US or China or EU, it's not that.
 
I'm not denying how much capitalism did in China, but for you capitalism is something nice without any possible down sides. When you can sell people too (there isn't any limit what you can sell, right?), you should think hard if it's ok. At point when you think it's not ok to sell people, you're applying something what's not built-in capitalism (by that I mean laissez-faire) - also it's possible that your picture about capitalism is something that differs from laissez-faire - because what you have there in US or China or EU, it's not that.

Very rare people would seriously make the case that you should be able to sell yourself and, once sold, it would only seem natural that others be able to sell you in their turn. That is an extremely odd example to pick, not in the least because it requires resolving major conceptual tensions. If your sense of what makes capitalism at least potentially problematic is that slavery isn't necessarily at odds with its principles, you have quite the weak argument.

Part of the problem here is that we're not specific about the policies we have in mind, or even about what goals we should pursue in the first place. As long as arguments float in an intellectual vacuum, we might say just about anything we want.
 
obviously not. govt is far bigger than ever, and Sanders wants to make far far bigger still!! Do you understand??

Small government doesn't guarantee effectiveness.
 
Small government doesn't guarantee effectiveness.

It doesn't guarantee efficiency, which is precisely why I seldom make sweeping pronunciations. It depends on the program and how its management is organized. However, absent explicitly tackling the problem, it is reasonable to expect governmental agencies will be less efficient than businesses. It's a rule of thumb, so it can be wrong.

There was a controversy over security for babies in airplanes in the 1990s, in the US. A baby died during a plane crash, whereas the mother survived. The mother couldn't hold on to the baby, in spite of all efforts to the contrary, on impact. Some people thought airlines should be forced to sit these babies in a seat of their own. I don't know if something like this has been enforced at any point since. What I do know is that no one realized this would increase the cost of traveling and, therefore, see some families move to land-based transportations, all of which are actually less safe than planes. An economist calculated that over the course of 10 years, it would lower baby deaths in plane crash by one or two, but it would induce additional transportation costs of nearly 2 billion dollars and cause 9 or 10 more baby deaths through other means of transportation... That was an example given by Thomas Sowell in "The Vision of the Annoited." The comment he made about this is that it might be true that, sometimes, there might exist ways to do better than markets on their own, but it might also be the case that 9/10 of the alternative solutions make things much, much worse. As in this case, a regulation meant to increase safety can improve safety as very narrowly defined in one place while making us very much less safe overall.

There is no shortage of nonsense you get when you study government agencies, not because the people who work there are bad or legislators plotting to make the world bad, but because the incentive structures are entirely wrong.
 
Let us compare Capitalism and Socialism.

Capitalism is the evil and corrupt system where heartless business owners think that if something cost $4.00 to produce they should charge $4.50 to $5.00 to the exploited consumer.

Socialism is the glorious and just system where if something costs $4.00 to produce the most that can be charged for it is $3.00 to $3.50.
 
Small government doesn't guarantee effectiveness.

Big government does guarantee inefficiency, corruption, waste and mismanagement. Six billion dollars were lost from the State Department while Hillary was there and nobody knows where it went or how it left. My guess is that men like George Soros and his people got a lot of it.
 
China just switched to capitalism and instantly eliminated 40% of the entire planets poverty and saved another 60 million from slowly starving to death under libsocialism. Thats ugly??? or the greatest miracle in all of human history?? Your Marxist handlers would be pleased at the way you you ignore reason,

China is no more capitalist than Venezuela. Both are left-leaning mixed-market economies, and China is much more left-wing than the Democrat party, which conservatives love to call socialist.
 
if a capitalist doesn't think about pleasing his workers and customers he will starve to death. Pleasing others is what family, business, and healthy civilization is all about. Now do you understand?

This is blatantly untrue.
 
Big government does guarantee inefficiency, corruption, waste and mismanagement. Six billion dollars were lost from the State Department while Hillary was there and nobody knows where it went or how it left. My guess is that men like George Soros and his people got a lot of it.

All politicians are waste and corrupted. Democrats, republican you name it. Hilary Clinton was a big fan of Muslim Brotherhood and funded them in Egypt and Tunisia. I think large sum of that money went there.
 
All politicians are waste and corrupted.

This is true!!! This is why intelligent people are conservatives who want to limit their power to be wasteful and corrupt.


Thomas Jefferson:
"Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence."

Please let us know if now you are a conservative too?
 
This is blatantly untrue.

of course if so the liberal would not have have been so afraid to say why it is untrue. What did you learn from your fear?
 
China is no more capitalist than Venezuela.

What planet are you on?? China has 100 million private capitalist businesses freely competing nationally and internationally, under socialism they had none!!

Here are 3 book on China with which to begin your education:

"Capitalism With Chinese Characteristics"

"How China Became Capitalist"

In his new book titled Markets over Mao: The rise of private businesses in China, Lardy argues that even though SOEs still enjoy monopoly positions in some key sectors in China, such as energy and telecommunications, their role in the overall econo


Do you see why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance?
 
Let us compare Capitalism and Socialism.

Capitalism is the evil and corrupt system where heartless business owners think that if something cost $4.00 to produce they should charge $4.50 to $5.00 to the exploited consumer.

Socialism is the glorious and just system where if something costs $4.00 to produce the most that can be charged for it is $3.00 to $3.50.

I like the following comparison:

Capitalism has a tendency, through competition, to amass great and corruptible wealth and power into a handful of giant mega-corporations with the power and money to buy off those whose job it is to police them.

Socialism from the start is one giant mega-corporation in charge of the police.
 
Small government doesn't guarantee effectiveness.

sure it does because the smaller govt is the more non monopolies will do things govt once did and the more effectiveness you will see. Now that you understand are you a conservative?
 
I like the following comparison:

Capitalism has a tendency, through competition, to amass great and corruptible wealth and power into a handful of giant mega-corporations with the power and money to buy off those whose job it is to police them.

Is there an example of this or just something your handlers told you to say??
 
What planet are you on?? China has 100 million private capitalist businesses freely competing nationally and internationally, under socialism they had none!!

Here are 3 book on China with which to begin your education:

"Capitalism With Chinese Characteristics"

"How China Became Capitalist"

In his new book titled Markets over Mao: The rise of private businesses in China, Lardy argues that even though SOEs still enjoy monopoly positions in some key sectors in China, such as energy and telecommunications, their role in the overall econo


Do you see why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance?

Congratulations on missing my point. China is a left-leaning mixed-market economy, as is Venezuela, so why do you call China capitalist and Venezuela socialist? They both have similar ratios of private and state-run businesses.
And how can you call China capitalist and then call Democrats socialists when China is more left wing and has way more state-owned industries??
 
400+ posts and you guys are still arguing as if there is an example of strict capitalism or strict socialism.
 
Is there an example of this or just something your handlers told you to say??

I'm using the complaint many level against Capitalism to expose the fundamental flaw of Socialism.
 
400+ posts and you guys are still arguing as if there is an example of strict capitalism or strict socialism.

??? Cuba /Florida, East/West Germany, North/South Korea, USA/USSR are good examples.
 
Back
Top Bottom