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The "Living Wage"

i said NATIONWIDE min wage....

i didnt say a local area like a san diego or a seattle couldnt do more

but leave it up to the locality

wash dc is raising theirs to $ 15 and the restaurant and small biz industry is going nutz

prices are already sky high....how much do you want to pay for a corn beef sandwich?

labor is 40% of total cost for these type of places....

but i agree that 7.25 needs to be looked at....and a bump to 9-10 bucks is probably merited

Adjusted for inflation and price increases on virtually everything, the lowest minimum wage in the country should still be like $12-15 an hour. Where I live, it should be damn near $18, and I live in a a town w/ around 35k people. I can assure that I don't make $18 and hour, although I'm not so far away from there that it's unattainable, it'll just be like 10 more years worth of raises lmfao

If you can't afford to pay your employees properly, maybe you shouldn't be running a business. You wouldn't want to not get paid adequately would you?
 
Scenario; Two men, both electrical engineers, live next door same size lot. ManA, married, no children, 1000sq foot home, 1BR 1B. ManB, married, two children, 5 and 6, 2000 sq foot home, 3BR, 2B. Both work at the same corp, both hired same day. Obviously ManA's cost of living is much lower than ManB's. Should the "living wage" for ManA be less ??

No, you should get the same wage for the same work. I have no problem with adjustments made for years on the job, though.

That said, whether or not one person's "living wage" should be able to support a family of four should be dependent upon how much labor our economy needs. It used to be the normal case where the man earned enough to support a family. It wasn't until real wages stopped keeping up with the economy that spouses entered the workforce in any numbers.

Did the economy need the extra labor? Or did people need the extra income? I would argue the latter. Since we have been under the NAIRU framework, unemployment (and by extension wages) have been used to fight inflation, and businesses have been very happy with that status quo. Workers have become far more productive; it makes no sense that we should need a larger (and lower paid) labor force. If incomes had kept up with the rest of the economy, we would be in much better shape overall.
 
No, you should get the same wage for the same work. Ioverall.

So if one of those workers graduated with 4.0 from MIT and the other graduated with a 2.5 from a PA state college they should get the same?



Isn't the reason you go to a prestigous school and study your butt of so that you become more valuable to a company?
 
So if one of those workers graduated with 4.0 from MIT and the other graduated with a 2.5 from a PA state college they should get the same?

Isn't the reason you go to a prestigous school and study your butt of so that you become more valuable to a company?

Going to a prestigious school and studying hard are two different things. Ask Lori Laughlin about that.

If they perform the same at their job, what difference should their college transcript make?
 
Going to a prestigious school and studying hard are two different things. Ask Lori Laughlin about that.

If they perform the same at their job, what difference should their college transcript make?

So what's the point of going to MIT then?
 
So what's the point of going to MIT then?

It probably helps you get a job in the first place. It helps you get into graduate schools. It carries weight. But once in a job, you should be judged on your performance.

Not sure what this has to do with a living wage, though.
 
Scenario; Two men, both electrical engineers, live next door same size lot. ManA, married, no children, 1000sq foot home, 1BR 1B. ManB, married, two children, 5 and 6, 2000 sq foot home, 3BR, 2B. Both work at the same corp, both hired same day. Obviously ManA's cost of living is much lower than ManB's. Should the "living wage" for ManA be less ??

Yes..

Pope Leo XIII said:
If a workman's wages be sufficient to enable him comfortably to support himself, his wife, and his children, he will find it easy, if he be a sensible man, to practice thrift, and he will not fail, by cutting down expenses, to put by some little savings and thus secure a modest source of income. Nature itself would urge him to this.
 
If incomes had kept up with the rest of the economy, we would be in much better shape overall.

incomes are skyrocketing in China, it not a secret how its done. Too bad liberals here invited in 30 million illegals and are about to invite in another 30 million. Do you think that will help American wages? Too bad liberals shipped our jobs to China with their taxes regulations unions deficits and idiotic trade deals!
 
If you can't afford to pay your employees properly, maybe you shouldn't be running a business. You wouldn't want to not get paid adequately would you?

properly? Thanks to Republican capitalism you have to pay workers the most possible or the good workers are free to leave to work for those who will pay the most possible. But, Democrats stacked the deck against workers by inviting in 30 million illegals and if they win in 2020 will tear down the immoral wall and invite in another 30 million! It will be very bad for wages, but we don't want to be racist do we?
 
Last year I started a new job to challenge myself. It took a while for me to catch on, but hey, it was worth learning a new skill. It wasn't for the money, but putting that money in the account and seeing it grow was nice.
But here is the difference. What I saved is the same amount others have to live on. They work just as hard, have the same skills, and are probably better at the job than I could ever hope to be. Some of my coworkers have such great work ethic, are neat and clean and punctual, do everything right. Yet they hardly ever have any money left over to put in the bank, have just enough to pay the bills.
Living wage, it all depends.
 
Living wage, it all depends.

yes, only the free market knows what wages and other prices should be. Soviet govt guessing leads to more and more inefficiency and eventually 120 million starving to death.
 
If you can't afford to pay your employees properly, maybe you shouldn't be running a business. You wouldn't want to not get paid adequately would you?

This poses the problem of having to determine and impose the standard of what is proper compensation for work. Moreover, when you hike the minimum wage, you're changing the relative price of some factor involved in the production of goods and services without making anyone more productive.

Let me just try to get what you have in mind, so talking becomes possible. You seem to assume the lower pay less skilled workers receive is the product of a negotiation process that favors employers. You suggest using price control to tip the scale back in favor of (some) employees. Is that roughly what you have in mind?

While it is unclear to me to what extent we can in the abstract determine exactly what is the labor of someone worth, I would assume an employer wouldn't hire you or would eventually learn not to hire people who cannot help them turn a profit, so there's at least an upper bound on what they will pay you, regardless of whether or not there is a minimum wage: it's what you can add to their bottom line, essentially. Now, suppose we do step in and considerably hike the minimum wage or some 16, 17 or even 18 dollars an hour. As you noted, it's possible some investment projects will become unprofitable. You brush it aside saying that maybe these projects shouldn't be pursued in the first place. However, you have to note that it doesn't expand the space of profitable projects to legislate a new price for low skill labor. It shrinks that space: some projects which would have been put into effect will not materialize and some existing projects might also become unprofitable and be terminated. This can take place wholesale, but also incrementally: businesses may cut opening hours, reduce full-time or part-time positions, or turn some full-time positions into part-time positions. The other aspect of this is the relative price change. Now, to the extent that it is possible to do it, employers might try to substitute low skill labor with higher skill labor or machines.

This might seem like an oddity but think about teenagers looking for a job. If I want to hire someone who never had a job, there needs to be something to help me cope with the costs of providing training. It is also the case that the teenager might cost me some business by not interacting properly with clients, or by making mistakes that force me to pay for replacing certain things. Other types of mistakes might also force me to pay for more frequent maintenance of the equipment we use. It's not a college educated lawyer that you will hinder by enforcing a 15$ minimum wage and, although it might serve some people, it also prices some teenagers out of a good learning experience.


None of these scenarios are mere fantasies and people can probably react in many more ways I have not anticipated above. Of course, you may still object that a small paycheck is just too small, even if you sometimes would implicitly end up doing it on behalf of people who would take it anyway. You might also think that something is missing in the above story and that, in fact, more people will find working hours after a larger minimum wage hike. I would really like to see results point to this, or arguments that could make sense of this possibility. However, my impression is that you won't have your free lunch and it will have unintended consequences. It's unlikely that making low skill labor costly will hurt wealthy citizens or people with degrees in engineering or law. If it does hurt people, it's going to be the people who do not have as much education or experience.

Another possibility that is seldom discussed is that you might be partly right. Maybe it's something like a thresholding effect: you have a window in which you can jerk the price of low skill labor up and get exactly what you have in mind at no cost. My intuition is that your best chance is that it's a window: at some point, the stories above will just become true for so many cases that you'll start seeing adverse effects. Much of what some people have in mind from ECON 101 is a very simplistic model; a more realistic version would have distributions of skills, background, firm types, etc. In that case, maybe you can get a window where the redistributive intuition works as intended. It's very hard to say without actually writing things down seriously into a model, however.
 
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This poses the problem of having to determine and impose the standard of what is proper compensation for work. Moreover, when you hike the minimum wage, you're changing the relative price of some factor involved in the production of goods and services without making anyone more productive.

Let me just try to get what you have in mind, so talking becomes possible. You seem to assume the lower pay less skilled workers receive is the product of a negotiation process that favors employers. You suggest using price control to tip the scale back in favor of (some) employees. Is that roughly what you have in mind?

While it is unclear to me to what extent we can in the abstract determine exactly what is the labor of someone worth, I would assume an employer wouldn't hire you or would eventually learn not to hire people who cannot help them turn a profit, so there's at least an upper bound on what they will pay you, regardless of whether or not there is a minimum wage: it's what you can add to their bottom line, essentially. Now, suppose we do step in and considerably hike the minimum wage or some 16, 17 or even 18 dollars an hour. As you noted, it's possible some investment projects will become unprofitable. You brush it aside saying that maybe these projects shouldn't be pursued in the first place. However, you have to note that it doesn't expand the space of profitable projects to legislate a new price for low skill labor. It shrinks that space: some projects which would have been put into effect will not materialize and some existing projects might also become unprofitable and be terminated. This can take place wholesale, but also incrementally: businesses may cut opening hours, reduce full-time or part-time positions, or turn some full-time positions into part-time positions. The other aspect of this is the relative price change. Now, to the extent that it is possible to do it, employers might try to substitute low skill labor with higher skill labor or machines.

This might seem like an oddity but think about teenagers looking for a job. If I want to hire someone who never had a job, there needs to be something to help me cope with the costs of providing training. It is also the case that the teenager might cost me some business by not interacting properly with clients, or by making mistakes that force me to pay for replacing certain things. Other types of mistakes might also force me to pay for more frequent maintenance of the equipment we use. It's not a college educated lawyer that you will hinder by enforcing a 15$ minimum wage and, although it might serve some people, it also prices some teenagers out of a good learning experience.


None of these scenarios are mere fantasies and people can probably react in many more ways I have not anticipated above. Of course, you may still object that a small paycheck is just too small, even if you sometimes would implicitly end up doing it on behalf of people who would take it anyway. You might also think that something is missing in the above story and that, in fact, more people will find working hours after a larger minimum wage hike. I would really like to see results point to this, or arguments that could make sense of this possibility. However, my impression is that you won't have your free lunch and it will have unintended consequences. It's unlikely that making low skill labor costly will hurt wealthy citizens or people with degrees in engineering or law. If it does hurt people, it's going to be the people who do not have as much education or experience.

Another possibility that is seldom discussed is that you might be partly right. Maybe it's something like a thresholding effect: you have a window in which you can jerk the price of low skill labor up and get exactly what you have in mind at no cost. My intuition is that your best chance is that it's a window: at some point, the stories above will just become true for so many cases that you'll start seeing adverse effects. Much of what some people have in mind from ECON 101 is a very simplistic model; a more realistic version would have distributions of skills, background, firm types, etc. In that case, maybe you can get a window where the redistributive intuition works as intended. It's very hard to say without actually writing things down seriously into a model, however.

Insanity, a liberal is a liberal because of a low IQ and you expect him to follow all of that? A liberal knows, "welfare is good" and nothing more. What you might have said is," a minimum wage is very very bad because it makes it illegal to hire a someone not worth the minimum wage. Try to cut your responses to 5% of the words you currently use if you are talking to a liberal.
 
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No, you should get the same wage for the same work. I have no problem with adjustments made for years on the job, though.

That said, whether or not one person's "living wage" should be able to support a family of four should be dependent upon how much labor our economy needs. It used to be the normal case where the man earned enough to support a family. It wasn't until real wages stopped keeping up with the economy that spouses entered the workforce in any numbers.

Did the economy need the extra labor? Or did people need the extra income? I would argue the latter. Since we have been under the NAIRU framework, unemployment (and by extension wages) have been used to fight inflation, and businesses have been very happy with that status quo. Workers have become far more productive; it makes no sense that we should need a larger (and lower paid) labor force. If incomes had kept up with the rest of the economy, we would be in much better shape overall.

That assumes the cost of living increase did not include a quality/quantity increase. The size of a 'typical' US home has grown considerably (by over 1000 sf), TV service is no longer free and telephone/data service is far more expensive. The man (working in a skilled job) can still earn enough to live in a smaller (or mobile/manufactured) house without cable/satellite TV with a single land-line phone.
 
That assumes the cost of living increase did not include a quality/quantity increase. The size of a 'typical' US home has grown considerably (by over 1000 sf), TV service is no longer free and telephone/data service is far more expensive. The man (working in a skilled job) can still earn enough to live in a smaller (or mobile/manufactured) house without cable/satellite TV with a single land-line phone.

Interesting, we were able to built subway systems, now we can barely afford to maintain them. 5 reasons:

1) environmental/ planning/ safety issues etc eat up a lot of our money now
2) govt interferes with efficiency of capitalism and wastes a lot of our money
3) we live many years longer without working
4) we have very expensive health care/education now
5) few new inventions now like electricity, oil, light bulbs, cars, farm equipment, washing machines, etc that quickly make everyone richer
 
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