What’s behind inequality?

Bullseye said:

One of the interesting points in the EPI study was their point that employees power had declined, which is only partially true. While low/no skilled employee wages have stayed relatively constant wages for people with rare/in-demand skills, training and expertise has blossomed indicating significant employee power when the employee has something to bargain with.

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I am not buying it this argument that it is the low skill/no skilled only who get ****ed...... a friend of mine who is an excellent worker and a great kitchen manager and extremely skilled with creating and preparing food cant get paid in Olympia...the guy has a stellar almost 20 year work record but he cant get paid a living wage with medical here. He LOVES his work in the kitchen. He is now installing cable for Comcast, and hating it.

That's ****ed up.

Hawkeye10 said:

I am not buying it, a friend of mine who is an excellent worker and a great kitchen manager and extremely skilled with creating and preparing food cant get paid in Olympia...the guy has a stellar almost 20 year work record but he cant get paid a living wage with medical here. He LOVES his work in the kitchen. He is now installing cable for Comcast, and hating it.

That's ****ed up.

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In OLYMPIA? Well yeah. I didn't say anything about finding an employer that will pay what you want, WHERE you want. Are you a restaurant hiring manager? Are you capable of assessing your friends qualifications in comparison to others competing for a job.

The point is that qualifications gives you a bargaining position, not necessarily a job.

Bullseye said:

In OLYMPIA? Well yeah. I didn't say anything about finding an employer that will pay what you want, WHERE you want. Are you a restaurant hiring manager? Are you capable of assessing your friends qualifications in comparison to others competing for a job.

The point is that qualifications gives you a bargaining position, not necessarily a job.

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It is paying what he needs to survive, something that is not an insult, for a job that is challenging that not many people can do well and which has immediate economic impact.

Yes, I am an expert in food service.

Mycroft said:

Thanks for the outdated info and point of view, but I'll take the free market over increased government control.

Wage is nothing but a price for labor. In econ 101, price is the point where supply and demand intersect. If left alone by outside forces such as "policymakers" (government), that intersection will reflect the real world conditions. Apply government control and everything goes to hell.

Keep your grubby government fingers out of my economy!

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So in your world slavery should be legal? After all it was the free market that allowed it in the first place and government that banned it.

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PeteEU said:

So in your world slavery should be legal? After all it was the free market that allowed it in the first place and government that banned it.

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Slavery is completely at odds with the free market.

A free market depends upon the ability of two or more people to freely engage...or not engage...in agreeable transactions.

So no...in my world slavery would not be legal.

Mycroft said:

Slavery is completely at odds with the free market.

A free market depends upon the ability of two or more people to freely engage...or not engage...in agreeable transactions.

So no...in my world slavery would not be legal.

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Then you live in a fantasy world since the real world every time we get closer and closer to what could be considered a free market, the more abuses by "people in power" aka the rich with guns. And the more chaos.

Slavery will happen in a free market because there is nothing to protect the weak in any negotiation....no rules or laws since there is no government to make these basic rules and enforce them.

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Mycroft said:

Slavery is completely at odds with the free market.

A free market depends upon the ability of two or more people to freely engage...or not engage...in agreeable transactions.

So no...in my world slavery would not be legal.

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It is the buying and selling of goods, in this case the goods would just happen to be people. In the past it occurred at auctions and open markets. It stopped when government regulations ended the practice

Mycroft said:

Slavery is completely at odds with the free market.

A free market depends upon the ability of two or more people to freely engage...or not engage...in agreeable transactions.

So no...in my world slavery would not be legal.

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Here is the issue, which happens to be a common conclusion when studying economics, but it means paying attention to what the definition of slavery is.

You are generally correct that slavery when defined as "practice or system of owning another person" is at odds with a free market *when* a government model supports the idea of liberty. Key qualifier.

However, you are entirely wrong when slavery is defined as "a restriction of freedom or participation in a social or economic model" for any reason. Especially when a government model supports the idea of ownership of another person *or* supports the idea of economic, social, and/or government aristocracy (some combination of those three) dividing the economic reality for some at odds with others. Or worse, positions some of society as enslaved to a system of which they have little to no word in.

But all of this is almost a moot point. We have neither a completely market driven model ("free market") nor planned market model ("socialism.") So all we are really talking about is theory on how slavery became so in the first place and what government model it happened to be under at the time.

(In a way Pete was right, at the time it was a free market only not for everyone and the government at the time did not look at nor treat everyone as equal.)

In economic terms we have a mixed model for a very good reason, the extremes of either one tend to see realized both social and economic slavery if not legalized ownership of another person no matter if by another person or by the state. It does not even matter if explicit stated as legal or not from whatever model of governance and law we are talking about.

What is realized is no matter which extreme we go towards, the further we go the more we see some level of slavery. We can argue all day about being a slave to someone else or something else.

Hawkeye10 said:

I am not buying it this argument that it is the low skill/no skilled only who get ****ed...... a friend of mine who is an excellent worker and a great kitchen manager and extremely skilled with creating and preparing food cant get paid in Olympia...the guy has a stellar almost 20 year work record but he cant get paid a living wage with medical here. He LOVES his work in the kitchen. He is now installing cable for Comcast, and hating it.

That's ****ed up.

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20 years work experience, that could mean 1 year experience 20 times, which could mean that the job requires very few skills, which means competition for those jobs is fierce, because almost anybody can be trained on the job in a few weeks, and the USA is full of lazy people.
If you aren't getting the pay you think you deserve, start looking for your next job.

UtahBill said:

20 years work experience, that could mean 1 year experience 20 times, which could mean that the job requires very few skills, which means competition for those jobs is fierce, because almost anybody can be trained on the job in a few weeks, and the USA is full of lazy people.
If you aren't getting the pay you think you deserve, start looking for your next job.

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I am a food service expert who has already told you that running a kitchen well takes great talent, few can do it.

Start listening if you desire my attention, I dont have that many years left, I dont waste my time anymore.

Hawkeye10 said:

I am a food service expert who has already told you that running a kitchen well takes great talent, few can do it.

Start listening if you desire my attention, I don't have that many years left, I dont waste my time anymore.

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I am 72....and in good health, but does that matter? I am sure that your talents are well appreciated by many, but in my experience glories fade rapidly.

Lafayette said:

From the EPI here: What’s behind inequality and wage suppression in the labor market?

Excerpt:

WHICH we've known for a long, long time - since Reckless Ronnie tore-down upper-income taxation - that Income Disparity would skyrocket. As it has done these past 30-years with less than Amazing Grace ...

When did the last upswing of the red-line happen Look closely at that red-line above and note that the upswing took place in the 1980 timeframe. And who was elected PotUS in 1980?

One guess, and only one guess ...

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1980 was when the world begin to significantly globalize So it stands to reason That the best American businessman We're gonna make a fortune Selling to the whole world rather than just to Americans.Thank God for them Since they are making us Internationally competitive Despite Liberal Taxes regulations and unions that are working against our international competitive position and our jobs at home.Ultimately inequality comes from God Since he made some of us like Einstein In some of us like Lafayette

ttwtt78640 said:

Your continuous harping on US upper income taxation rates fails to explain how raising income taxes on "the rich" would increase the pay of other (average?) workers. Income taxes on average (or lower) wage workers are not what is keeping their wages low. if you taxed the Walmart CEO more that would not cause pay raises for the other Walmart workers. In fact, if you paid the Walmart CEO nothing at all (taxed that rich person at 100%) and redistributed all of that "windfall" among Walmart's other workers then each Walmart worker could be paid $1/year more - whoopee!

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This is true enough. Lafayette misses the point about what exactly causes the income disparity. and more importantly the decrease in income to most workers. This is something that has changed fundamentally in the economy, and besides globalization, I have another explanation.





Remember, finance and the like don't produce real wealth. This is rent-seeking. It just diverts wealth to those who own the property. How has this been manifested?



Banks now completely dominate our economy.

If anyone wants to argue that this has been a good thing for the economy, please explain!

Mycroft said:

Thanks for the outdated info and point of view, but I'll take the free market over increased government control.

Wage is nothing but a price for labor. In econ 101, price is the point where supply and demand intersect. If left alone by outside forces such as "policymakers" (government), that intersection will reflect the real world conditions. Apply government control and everything goes to hell.

Keep your grubby government fingers out of my economy!

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Are your free market principles more important than the living conditions of your fellow citizens?

Captain Adverse said:

The question is, what do you suggest we do about it?

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Let the banks fail.

Bullseye said:

Why is "income disparity" a bad thing? Doesn't it mean people are getting paid what their talents, skills and knowledge are worth? Would you have a world-famous heart-transplant surgeon being paid at the same rate as a burger flipper? Or the newest hire at your company being paid the same as YOU? OH, and including capital gains is a massive distortion on your chart.

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It's not inherently a bad thing. It's a bad thing when median wages are falling.

phattonez said:

Are your free market principles more important than the living conditions of your fellow citizens?

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I am not responsible for the living conditions of my fellow citizens...they are.

phattonez said:

It's not inherently a bad thing. It's a bad thing when median wages are falling.

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Well they were in 2009 - nine years ago. Recent data has pointed to wage growth.

Bullseye said:

Well they were in 2009 - nine years ago. Recent data has pointed to wage growth.

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I've posted that data. Yes, we're off recession lows, but we're still way off from the 70s, and that wage growth is still outpaced by home price appreciation.

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

phattonez said:

It's not inherently a bad thing. It's a bad thing when median wages are falling.

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median wages are up last 2 quarters thanks to Trumps turnaround! What planet have you been on??

Lafayette said:

From the EPI here: What’s behind inequality and wage suppression in the labor market?

Excerpt:

WHICH we've known for a long, long time - since Reckless Ronnie tore-down upper-income taxation - that Income Disparity would skyrocket. As it has done these past 30-years with less than Amazing Grace ...

When did the last upswing of the red-line happen Look closely at that red-line above and note that the upswing took place in the 1980 timeframe. And who was elected PotUS in 1980?

One guess, and only one guess ...

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What’s behind inequality?

Power.

jet57 said:

What’s behind inequality?

.

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God, since he made us inequal or Darwin since he discovered inequality was a way to weed out the losers.

liberalism is based in pure ignorance hence they are against God and science.

James972 said:

God, since he made us inequal or Darwin since he discovered inequality was a way to weed out the losers.

liberalism is based in pure ignorance hence they are against God and science.

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stupidity marches on

jet57 said:

stupidity marches on

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of course if it was stupidity the liberal could tell us why. What does the liberal learn from his fear?

phattonez said:

It's not inherently a bad thing. It's a bad thing when median wages are falling.

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Median Income of the Poverty Threshold (2018) is for a family of four $25,100. What does that mean?

From here - Center for Poverty Research, UofCal, Davis:

The official poverty rate is 12.3 percent, based on the U.S. Census Bureau’s 2017 estimates. That year, an estimated 39.7 million Americans lived in poverty according to the official measure. According to supplemental poverty measure, the poverty rate was 13.9 percent.

While poverty rates according to the official and supplemental measures fluctuate from year to year, so do incomes relative to the Federal Poverty Level (FPL). According to the Census Bureau, 18.5 million people reported deep poverty, which means a household income below 50 percent of their 2017 poverty threshold. These individuals represented an estimated 5.7 percent of all Americans and 46.7 percent of those in poverty.

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Fourteen percent of the American population, estimated at a total of 326 million, means (do the maths) 60 million of our fellow citizens live their lives below the Poverty Threshold. (Whilst Donald Dork reduces upper-income taxation for his fellow millionaires who funded his campaign.)

Sixty million men, women and children! That's the population of the states of California and Florida ... !