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Is Venezuela's economic problem due to inflation, or is it due to it not being productive?

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Villiage Idiot
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Venezuela inflation soars to 4,000% in 'death spiral' - Nov. 22, 2017

The article makes it sound like inflation is the issue, stating that people have to check the value of their money before heading to the grocery store to see if they have enough to purchase anything...
...then it says "if there is even anything on the shelves to buy".

Seems to me that lack of production is their real issue, inflation doesn't even matter if there is nothing to buy.
 
It is due to a lot of things. Inflation is a symptom, not a cause.

It is also not a lack of production per say or rather ability to produce. They actually do produce quite a lot, but farmers sell their goods in Colombia for foreign currency instead. Same actually goes for gas and oil in some cases. The ability of the government to control this behaviour is relatively limited. Add to that outside and internal influences and sabotage and of course corruption, and you have a massive problem that is hard to deal with as long as the partisan politics continue. And because the Venezuelan currency is not worth much, then any imports (which are also needed) are very expensive.

Its a mess, but lets be clear.. Venezuela was a mess before Chavez as well.
 
Venezuela inflation soars to 4,000% in 'death spiral' - Nov. 22, 2017

The article makes it sound like inflation is the issue, stating that people have to check the value of their money before heading to the grocery store to see if they have enough to purchase anything...
...then it says "if there is even anything on the shelves to buy".

Seems to me that lack of production is their real issue, inflation doesn't even matter if there is nothing to buy.

They should have never taken on public debt in a foreign currency.

And, yeah, they have a clear production issue because no one wants to trade for currency that loses value so quickly.
 
It is due to a lot of things. Inflation is a symptom, not a cause.

It is also not a lack of production per say or rather ability to produce. They actually do produce quite a lot, but farmers sell their goods in Colombia for foreign currency instead. Same actually goes for gas and oil in some cases. The ability of the government to control this behaviour is relatively limited. Add to that outside and internal influences and sabotage and of course corruption, and you have a massive problem that is hard to deal with as long as the partisan politics continue. And because the Venezuelan currency is not worth much, then any imports (which are also needed) are very expensive.

Its a mess, but lets be clear.. Venezuela was a mess before Chavez as well.

Let's be clearer, Venezuela was a paradise before Chavez compared to today. Venezuela has 'devolved' into its horrific state for the same reasons that many other "socialist" third world regimes of one-party states (e.g. Zimbabwe), an ignorant, crude and dogmatic ideology run amok - in this case "Bolivarian Socialism".
 
Let's be clearer, Venezuela was a paradise before Chavez compared to today. Venezuela has 'devolved' into its horrific state for the same reasons that many other "socialist" third world regimes of one-party states (e.g. Zimbabwe), an ignorant, crude and dogmatic ideology run amok - in this case "Bolivarian Socialism".

A paradise for the 1% sure.. for the poor masses, hell no. Why do you think that Chavez and Madouro kept winning elections? Fraud? no.. because the masses voted for them, because relative to before Chavez (at least the first decade), they had it a lot better than before.
 
Venezuela inflation soars to 4,000% in 'death spiral' - Nov. 22, 2017

The article makes it sound like inflation is the issue, stating that people have to check the value of their money before heading to the grocery store to see if they have enough to purchase anything...
...then it says "if there is even anything on the shelves to buy".

Seems to me that lack of production is their real issue, inflation doesn't even matter if there is nothing to buy.

If you organize as a corrupt command economy the worms crawl out of the woodwork all over the place given time. And it’s had time now.
 
Let's be clearer, Venezuela was a paradise before Chavez compared to today. Venezuela has 'devolved' into its horrific state for the same reasons that many other "socialist" third world regimes of one-party states (e.g. Zimbabwe), an ignorant, crude and dogmatic ideology run amok - in this case "Bolivarian Socialism".

As we say, it’s “California on steroids”.
 
A paradise for the 1% sure.. for the poor masses, hell no. Why do you think that Chavez and Madouro kept winning elections? Fraud? no.. because the masses voted for them, because relative to before Chavez (at least the first decade), they had it a lot better than before.

Yep. If one uses up one’s assets and takes out loans to pay for votes, the voters feel fine.
 
Yep. If one uses up one’s assets and takes out loans to pay for votes, the voters feel fine.

That is what all politicians do.. so come back with something relevant next time.
 
Seems to me that lack of production is their real issue, inflation doesn't even matter if there is nothing to buy.
It is also not a lack of production per say or rather ability to produce.
And, yeah, they have a clear production issue because no one wants to trade for currency that loses value so quickly.

Correct. Venezuela designed its own collapse. It used to be a relatively wealthy country, due to its oil revenues from Citgo. However the government did not use that money to invest in the development of its domestic industries, public infrastructure or education; but rather used the money to subsidize imported foreign goods and services.

Then in 2003 after the Venezuela oil workers strike**, the government decided to pin its currency to the US dollar (and then maintained that rate for years) to ensure that the currency's value did not denigrate further. That was problematic, because in order for anyone in country to import those foreign goods and services, everyone had to go through the government to exchange bolivars to foreign currencies at a fixed rate. It slowed down the economy, but worked fine enough to keep 'em afloat.

**** really hit the fan in 2014 when oil cratered and the ground fell out from under the Venezuelan government. Instead of letting the currency float, it tried (and is still trying) to maintain those currency controls, by limiting the amount of foreign currencies that can be bought, which is driving up the value of those currencies even further, and utterly destroying value of the bolivar to the point that one can afford to import goods into Venezuela anymore.

Thus we get to our current situation where (1) no domestic industries have been developed to produce goods and services, and (2) the government has maintained an iron grip on its currency, which has annihilated the ability for Venezuelans to import any goods and services.
 
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A paradise for the 1% sure.. for the poor masses, hell no. Why do you think that Chavez and Madouro kept winning elections? Fraud? no.. because the masses voted for them, because relative to before Chavez (at least the first decade), they had it a lot better than before.

The "poor masses" suffered just prior to Chavez an inflation rate was around 35 percent (1998).
The "poor masses" are now "blessed" with 800 percent inflation rates (2016).

The "poor masses" suffered, just prior to Chavez, a 42 percent poverty rate.
The "poor masses" are now "blessed" with an 82 percent poverty rate.

The "poor masses" suffered, just prior to Chavez, a homicide rate of 20 per 100,000.
The "poor masses" are now "blessed" with a homicide rate of 90 per 100,000.

There is NO DOUBT that compared to the last decade of the 1990s, this is hell twice over.
 
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Unless a miracle happens, Venezuela will default on loan payments due in December.

The only thing of value (collateral) left in Venezuela is Petróleos de Venezuela S.A. (PDVSA/Citgo).

Yesterday, the Maduro regime arrested the PDVSA CEO and five VPs.
 
I have been a Venezuela watcher for many years. Initially I wrote satirical posts on another board, cataloging the unique lunacies of Chavez and those adoring American fellow-travelers. A few years ago I stopped doing so because there was nothing left to find amusing; it evolved into one endless tragedy of repression, brutality, want, and the destruction of its society. It also seemed hopeless as no matter how many assembly seats were won by the opposition the military and Maduro courts made them irrelevant.

The pit of misery is bottomless. It now borders on a replay of "Red Harvest", the intentional famine and genocide against the Ukraine by Stalin.

Behind the numbers lies a staggering tale of corruption and malfeasance. The regime of Hugo Chávez and its successor borrowed breathtaking sums even while raking in record revenue from oil exports. Almost all this windfall of more than $1 trillion was squandered or stolen. When petroleum prices fell, Mr. Maduro had to choose between coupon payments and food supplies. He chose Wall Street, thereby exacerbating a humanitarian catastrophe: A majority of the country’s 30 million people say they have lost weight due to a lack of food, and some 500,000 people fled the country in the past two years.

The regime’s reluctance to default reflects a healthy fear of the possible consequences. Venezuela has substantial assets abroad, including the oil company Citgo and the refineries it operates in the United States. If these, along with Venezuela’s tankers, are seized, the government could lose its last economic lifeline.

Of course, Mr. Maduro could service Venezuela’s debts and feed his people if he were willing to seek help from the International Monetary Fund, as well as humanitarian aid, and take elementary steps to stabilize the economy. But the only foreign help he seeks is that of Cuba’s hard-line intelligence apparatus, which pushes him toward totalitarianism, and Russia, which in its zeal to back any anti-American cause has bailed him out several times — and announced another deal to refinance its loans last week.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...81fd63f174d_story.html?utm_term=.21325c3d54ea
 
Same thing that we run into in this country but at a larger scale. Corrupt leaders.
 
The "poor masses" suffered just prior to Chavez an inflation rate was around 35 percent (1998).
The "poor masses" are now "blessed" with 800 percent inflation rates (2016).

The "poor masses" suffered, just prior to Chavez, a 42 percent poverty rate.
The "poor masses" are now "blessed" with an 82 percent poverty rate.

The "poor masses" suffered, just prior to Chavez, a homicide rate of 20 per 100,000.
The "poor masses" are now "blessed" with a homicide rate of 90 per 100,000.

There is NO DOUBT that compared to the last decade of the 1990s, this is hell twice over.

Whoever said they were blessed now? Stop putting words in my mouth. You simply do not understand that the people of the country, who elected Chavez, were suffering politically and economically before Chavez. After Chavez they got a feeling of owning the government, a government that had for generations gone out of its way (in their eyes) to prevent the masses from going anywhere politically or economically.

This is and always has been about a class divide pure and simple. You had the 1% who were successful, wealthy and basically ran the country at all levels. Then you had the 99% who felt they had no influence, and the existing power structure did not have their interests at heart.. which frankly was true.

That is why Chavez could win again and again.
 
Venezuela's predicament is due to a number of factors, but mostly to general mismanagement of the economy. The country racked up a lot of debt during the Chavez years in order to subsidize Venezuelan living standards. It nationalized industry and drove out entrepreneurs. (South Florida was once again a major recipient of wealthy Latins.) It decimated food production, thanks to price controls and land confiscation. It failed to properly modernize and reinvest in its state-owned oil company, which was systematically looted through corruption. Matters weren't helped when the oil price dropped, which affected Venezuela's foreign exchange reserves. Because it was afraid of having its valuable oil assets confiscated if it defaulted on its debts, it continued to service them even at the expense of supplying basic commodities to its citizens. It created a tiered exchange rate regime, which dried up commerce. (For example, foreign airlines stopped servicing the country, because Venezuela set the conversion rate from Bolivars to foreign currency so low that flying people in an out of the country became unprofitable.) What can I say? Venezuela is just and economic basket case.

The inflation is a result of the point I've tried to make over the years regarding fiat currency: Its value is based solely on confidence. Once the country defaulted on a portion of its debts, that confidence was shattered, and now the currency is in a death spiral. (So where are the MMTers now? Isn't this where they tell us Venezuela, as a sovereign state, can just print itself back to prosperity?)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...6e0451a96fd_story.html?utm_term=.61233305cacb

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2017-07-13/venezuelas-loss-is-miamis-gain

Venezuela: How a rich country collapsed - Jul. 26, 2017
 
Venezuela inflation soars to 4,000% in 'death spiral' - Nov. 22, 2017

The article makes it sound like inflation is the issue, stating that people have to check the value of their money before heading to the grocery store to see if they have enough to purchase anything...
...then it says "if there is even anything on the shelves to buy".

Seems to me that lack of production is their real issue, inflation doesn't even matter if there is nothing to buy.

It's due to it being a totalitarian regime...
 
Venezuela's predicament is due to a number of factors, but mostly to general mismanagement of the economy.

Somone pointed out, rightly so, that the export dollars earned weren't used to develop the internal economy. My understanding is that the nation is not self-sufficient. It relies on imports. This means that a decrease in the value of the Bolivar sends prices in the country soring. Now if prices were only to increase on non-necessities, things people didn't need to survive, the impact would have been much less. The government should have used its surplus to foster development in industries that supply the necessities of the nation. It's my understanding that Venezuela was importing food (for reasons you cite below). That' is disastrous when your currency plummets for what I hope are obvious reasons.

The country racked up a lot of debt during the Chavez years in order to subsidize Venezuelan living standards. It nationalized industry and drove out entrepreneurs. (South Florida was once again a major recipient of wealthy Latins.) It decimated food production, thanks to price controls and land confiscation. It failed to properly modernize and reinvest in its state-owned oil company, which was systematically looted through corruption.

Agreed...

Remember this. We'll come back to it.

Matters weren't helped when the oil price dropped, which affected Venezuela's foreign exchange reserves. Because it was afraid of having its valuable oil assets confiscated if it defaulted on its debts, it continued to service them even at the expense of supplying basic commodities to its citizens. It created a tiered exchange rate regime, which dried up commerce. (For example, foreign airlines stopped servicing the country, because Venezuela set the conversion rate from Bolivars to foreign currency so low that flying people in an out of the country became unprofitable.) What can I say? Venezuela is just an economic basket case.

"Didn't help when the price dropped"? That's an understatement. I'd say it was like pulling the bottom card out on a house of cards.

The inflation is a result of the point I've tried to make over the years regarding fiat currency: Its value is based solely on confidence. Once the country defaulted on a portion of its debts, that confidence was shattered, and now the currency is in a death spiral. (So where are the MMTers now? Isn't this where they tell us Venezuela, as a sovereign state, can just print itself back to prosperity?

Yeah, I'm going to disagree. The value of any token, be it a dollar a movie ticket, arcade token, or gift card is based solely on whether the organization that backs those tokens can deliver on its promise. Belief has nothing to do with it. Having said that, people are irrational and can create a self-fulfilling prophecy. If everyone believed that the movie tickets from the local theater were worthless and no one bought them, the movie theater would shut down, not because it couldn't deliver on its promises, but because people irrationally believed it couldn't. The same goes for any currency. If store shelves are stocked with things people need and want, but they believe that the currency used to buy them is "worthless", then people end up creating the situation they feared.

As far as MMT is concerned, everything that's happened is perfectly consistent with MMT.

You may be able to print currency, but as Hyman Minsky once said, anyone can create currency, the trick is getting people to accept it. If things of value the currency can be used to purchase decline, people will rightly reject it.

If the currency created by the Venezuelan government were being used to create things of value in Venezuela (a point made in another post in this thread), things that people need, like food, this would drive value back into the currency, but instead, the government is creating currency and using it to pay foreign debt and buy staples for the population. That's 100% inflationary and perfectly predicted by MMT. This is something you point out in the section I said we'd get back to. Instead of using the money for economic development and increasing internal self-sufficiency and efficiency, money was used to subsidize living standards. This isn't a failure of socialism per-say this is the failure of the government and the culture to understand how to manage their economy.
 

csbrown28, basically everything you said is what I was getting at with the OP.

When it comes down to it, regardless of the reason, they don't produce an ample quantity of the types of things that people use every day, nor an ample quantity (or maybe I should say "value" since oil prices have come down) of exports which they could have used in trade for the things that they don't produce, thus their store shelves are bare.

Inflation isn't the cause of bare shelves, inflation is the result of bare shelves, which is the result of a lack of production.
 
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csbrown28, basically everything you said is what I was getting at with the OP.

When it comes down to it, regardless of the reason, they don't produce an ample quantity of the types of things that people use every day, nor an ample quantity (or maybe I should say "value" since oil prices have come down) of exports which they could have used in trade for the things that they don't produce, thus their store shelves are bare.

Inflation isn't the cause of bare shelves, inflation is the result of bare shelves, which is the result of a lack of production.

Absolutely, and I was back'in you up :)
 
Venezuela inflation soars to 4,000% in 'death spiral' - Nov. 22, 2017

The article makes it sound like inflation is the issue, stating that people have to check the value of their money before heading to the grocery store to see if they have enough to purchase anything...
...then it says "if there is even anything on the shelves to buy".

Seems to me that lack of production is their real issue, inflation doesn't even matter if there is nothing to buy.

No, the failures of Socialism and Central planning is their '' real issue ".

Venezuela's inflation wasnt caused by a lack of production, ( how ****ing ridiculous) it was caused by their corrupt Socialist central planners, who started printing currency to make up for lost reveneues.

Its called " Seigniorage ", and spending a whole 3 minutes researching this issue is the least you could have done before posting this insipid thread.
 
No, the failures of Socialism and Central planning is their '' real issue ".

Venezuela's inflation wasnt caused by a lack of production, ( how ****ing ridiculous) it was caused by their corrupt Socialist central planners, who started printing currency to make up for lost reveneues.

Its called " Seigniorage ", and spending a whole 3 minutes researching this issue is the least you could have done before posting this insipid thread.

Printing money was a response to inflation, not the cause of inflation. The misery of the people of Venezuela is caused by bare shelves, which is caused by their lack of productivity.

Although I do agree that politically, piss poor government policies is the cause of the lack of productivity.

Think through inflation step by step, from the viewpoint of a store owner. If you have lot's of products on your shelves, then why would you increase prices? You increase prices when you have a lack of products. Same with a farmer, if you have excess crops you aren't going to raise prices. Same way with a factory, if you have warehouses full of goods, you aren't going to raise prices.

Inadequate supply of goods to meet demand at current prices is always the cause of inflation.
 
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No, the failures of Socialism and Central planning is their '' real issue ".

Venezuela's inflation wasnt caused by a lack of production, ( how ****ing ridiculous) it was caused by their corrupt Socialist central planners, who started printing currency to make up for lost revenues.

Its called " Seigniorage ", and spending a whole 3 minutes researching this issue is the least you could have done before posting this insipid thread.

It's true the crisis began as oil prices fell and oil revenue fell as a result. The only point I'm making is that if money is so-called "printed", most of it should be spent domestically in ways that increase domestic production on goods and services that would limit the need for foreign goods.
 
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