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Who wins and loses in Trump's tax plan?

Lafayette

Lafayette

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From the Guardian: Who wins and loses in Trump's tax plan?

Excerpt:
The rich

The Trump clan (and his 1% cohort) will be ... the biggest winners if either the House or Senate plan becomes law. And one of their biggest wins will go to their families in the form of elimination of the estate tax.

The estate tax only affects people who leave a fortune of $5.49m or above to their heirs. Parents can leave $11m to their children without paying the tax. The House bill doubles that exemption until 2024 and then eliminates it entirely at a cost of $151bn to the taxpayer over the next decade.

The cut would save the Trump family $1.15bn when he dies, according to the Center for American Progress Action Fund.

Gone also would be the alternative minimum tax (AMT), introduced in 1969 to prevent the rich from escaping paying their fair share of tax via tax loopholes.

AMT mainly affects those earning over $500,000, according to Tax Policy Center. In 2005 the rule was responsible for $31m of the $38m Trump paid in federal taxes, according to leaked documents.

Lowering taxes on pass through businesses will also help the rich. Pass through businesses are businesses taxed at the rate of the business owner. The current proposals would cut the top rate these companies pay to 25%, far below the 39.6% highest rate of personal income tax.

According to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities some 80% of the benefit of these cuts would go to those earning $1m or more – giving them an average increase of $50,000 in 2018. A similar plan in Kansas led to a budget crisis after the state’s tax revenues plummeted and promises of increased economic activity failed to materialize.

Trump controls some 500 pass-through entities and he would save about $16m a year from the cuts, according to the New York Times.

Corporations
Trump’s plan would cut the corporate tax rate from 35% to 20%, the lowest point since 1939. The idea is that lower taxes will allow business leaders to increase capital investment and create more jobs.

But the fact is that most US corporations pay far less than 35% tax already, many of the most profitable pay nothing and lower taxes have not been shown to create jobs. There is also little evidence that the current system is harming business given that both stock markets and corporate profits are at record highs while employment is at lows unseen since the turn of the millennium.
Click to expand...


My Point: There is no need whatsoever to lower upper-income taxation. This "tax deal" is just a Replicant KMA for Donald Dork. And given the Replicant ambivalence in the House & Senate towards Mr PotUS, it is impossible to conceive why it is being done.

Except this is what Replicants habitually do in knee-jerk fashion ... ?!?
 
Lafayette said:
From the Guardian: Who wins and loses in Trump's tax plan?

Excerpt:


My Point: There is no need whatsoever to lower upper-income taxation. This "tax deal" is just a Replicant KMA for Donald Dork. And given the Replicant ambivalence in the House & Senate towards Mr PotUS, it is impossible to conceive why it is being done.

Except this is what Replicants habitually do in knee-jerk fashion ... ?!?
Click to expand...

You would be taken far more seriously if you could find a way to not call the POTUS Donald Dork. Bet you aced debate at Harvard, yes?
 
Lafayette said:
From the Guardian: Who wins and loses in Trump's tax plan?

Excerpt:


My Point: There is no need whatsoever to lower upper-income taxation. This "tax deal" is just a Replicant KMA for Donald Dork. And given the Replicant ambivalence in the House & Senate towards Mr PotUS, it is impossible to conceive why it is being done.

Except this is what Replicants habitually do in knee-jerk fashion ... ?!?
Click to expand...

The best example of what estate taxes does can be seen in the lack of family farms and small partnerships. The owners die, and the family can’t pay the estate taxes, so a corporate farm come in, makes an offer and they sell it. What do they farm? Subsidies. Mostly by agreeing not to grow certain crops, because they are already at their market quota.

You say Trump would save $1.5 bilion. Fine. If he had to pay it, where would that 1.5 billion come from?
 
chuckiechan said:
The best example of what estate taxes does can be seen in the lack of family farms and small partnerships. The owners die, and the family can’t pay the estate taxes, so a corporate farm come in, makes an offer and they sell it. What do they farm? Subsidies. Mostly by agreeing not to grow certain crops, because they are already at their market quota.

You say Trump would save $1.5 bilion. Fine. If he had to pay it, where would that 1.5 billion come from?
Click to expand...

Except if that were the actual concern here, the Republicans would write language protecting family farms and businesses.
 
chuckiechan said:
The best example of what estate taxes does can be seen in the lack of family farms and small partnerships. The owners die, and the family can’t pay the estate taxes, so a corporate farm come in, makes an offer and they sell it. What do they farm? Subsidies. Mostly by agreeing not to grow certain crops, because they are already at their market quota.

You say Trump would save $1.5 bilion. Fine. If he had to pay it, where would that 1.5 billion come from?
Click to expand...

How many family farms are affected by the estate tax? What portion is that of total family farms?
 
brothern said:
Except if that were the actual concern here, the Republicans would write language protecting family farms and businesses.
Click to expand...
Farms and businesses? Who is left?

And how long do you want to spend in court arguing for and against every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a business. That’s why the tax code is so FUBAR now. It’s not called “The Book of Favors” for nothing.

Back to Trump. Let’s say the family had to come up with $1.5 billion how would they do it?
 
Lafayette said:
My Point: There is no need whatsoever to lower upper-income taxation. This "tax deal" is just a Replicant KMA for Donald Dork. And given the Replicant ambivalence in the House & Senate towards Mr PotUS, it is impossible to conceive why it is being done.

Except this is what Replicants habitually do in knee-jerk fashion ... ?!?
Click to expand...
Why not just be honest and say why you really oppose this tax plan? Let me help: you want our tax code to be used as a means of wealth transfer. Lowering the tax on those with wealth means you are limited on what you can steal from them to use for your own purposes.
 
Lafayette said:
From the Guardian: Who wins and loses in Trump's tax plan?

Excerpt:


My Point: There is no need whatsoever to lower upper-income taxation. This "tax deal" is just a Replicant KMA for Donald Dork. And given the Replicant ambivalence in the House & Senate towards Mr PotUS, it is impossible to conceive why it is being done.

Except this is what Replicants habitually do in knee-jerk fashion ... ?!?
Click to expand...

Nothing complicated about the "tax deal." The .01% win and everybody else loses. What the .01% don't pay in taxes will have to be made up from the rest of the taxpayers because the bills/debts/deficits continue to require some service.
/
 
chuckiechan said:
Farms and businesses? Who is left? And how long do you want to spend in court arguing for and against every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a business. That’s why the tax code is so FUBAR now. It’s not called “The Book of Favors” for nothing.
Click to expand...
Family farms and family businesses, and it would leave most wealthy individuals nonexempt from the tax. It's not a gray area.

Likewise I support the over-arching goal of eliminating deductions/exemptions and therefore allowing a reduction of personal and corporate income tax rates.

However what I don't support is attacking the principles of the United States as a democratic republic. We fought against and ended the aristocratic state 200+ years ago, which the estate tax is one of the core protections that keeps our democratic state a democracy.

chuckiechan said:
Back to Trump. Let’s say the family had to come up with $1.5 billion how would they do it?
Click to expand...

The family does not have to come up with $1.5 billion. That's not how the estate tax works. The tax is only levied on estates of individuals who have died and those estates are going to be inherited by the next generation (... spouses are exempt).

Meaning the Trump family doesn't get Donald's wealth deposited into their bank accounts and then have to "come up with" $1.5 billion dollars.

Donald's assets stay with Donald's estate even after his death, are assessed for their total value and taxed, and then passed to his children or benefactors.
 
chuckiechan said:
All transfers of wealth due to death, that haven’t been specially structured to avoid it.
Click to expand...

I thought we were talking about the federal estate tax? The one that Republicans are looking to get rid of. The repeal of the federal estate tax will have very little impact on family farms. It is being presented as if it will, and that is dishonest.
 
brothern said:
Family farms and family businesses, and it would leave most wealthy individuals nonexempt from the tax. It's not a gray area.

Likewise I support the over-arching goal of eliminating deductions/exemptions and therefore allowing a reduction of personal and corporate income tax rates.

However what I don't support is attacking the principles of the United States as a democratic republic. We fought against and ended the aristocratic state 200+ years ago, which the estate tax is one of the core protections that keeps our democratic state a democracy.



The family does not have to come up with $1.5 billion. That's not how the estate tax works. The tax is only levied on estates of individuals who have died and those estates are going to be inherited by the next generation (... spouses are exempt).

Meaning the Trump family doesn't get Donald's wealth deposited into their bank accounts and then have to "come up with" $1.5 billion dollars.

Donald's assets stay with Donald's estate even after his death, are assessed for their total value and taxed, and then passed to his children or benefactors.
Click to expand...

Ref: last sentence.
Would you expand on that? (After the spouses death) It sounds as if the heirs inherit the estate $1.5 billion light. If the estate pays the taxes prior to the transfer, who decides what is sold and to whom? The executor?
 
chuckiechan said:
Ref: last sentence.
Would you expand on that? (After the spouses death) It sounds as if the heirs inherit the estate $1.5 billion light. If the estate pays the taxes prior to the transfer, who decides what is sold and to whom? The executor?
Click to expand...

> It sounds as if the heirs inherit the estate $1.5 billion light.
That is correct.

> If the estate pays the taxes prior to the transfer, who decides what is sold and to whom? The executor?
Correct as well. (Assuming the selling of assets is even necessary.)

Additional points -

* The money that the heirs receive is not taxable income. (That'd be double taxation.)
* If the assets are to be transferred to the surviving spouse (or charity), it's not taxable.
* Only wealth above $5.5 million is taxed. Ex, if someone had $6 million in assets at their death, only $0.5m of their estate is taxable.
* Actually, there are already exemptions built in today's law that exempts family farms and closely-held businesses (i.e., family businesses).
 
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MrPeanut said:
How many family farms are affected by the estate tax? What portion is that of total family farms?
Click to expand...

I think it’s also important to remember that, with careful estate planning, which the wealthy can easily afford, most, if not all inheritance tax can be avoided anyway. It’s done through annuities, trusts, life insurance and, I’m sure, many other vehicles of which I’m not aware.

Family farms are something else again. A farm that’s been in a family for, quite literally, many generations suddenly finds the farmland valued at highest and best use estimates generating an inheritance tax bill so enormous that the property itself must be sold to pay Uncle Sam. Not like ANOTHER farmer buys it... it’s bought up by the food conglomerates. Is that a good thing in and of itself? I’m not at all sure.

The double taxation that inheritance tax represents is, in my opinion, simply a gvmt confiscation of wealth.
 
DaveFagan said:
Nothing complicated about the "tax deal." The .01% win and everybody else loses. What the .01% don't pay in taxes will have to be made up from the rest of the taxpayers because the bills/debts/deficits continue to require some service.
Click to expand...

Worse yet, that money goes into an account and, for the most part, DOES NOT fund hi-tech novelties that enrich our lives. For the most part, the rich are quite content to let it sit and obtain any interest-rate on it (as long as the rate is greater than that of inflation). So, the money sits in the bank and become part of the supply available as a "loan" to all and sundry who might want it.

Does that "help the economy" as much as taxing-it at a much higher level (I'm all for 90% above earned income of 1 megabuck a year) and using the money to sustain a National Healthcare System that is like a great many other countries with good sense. Like this shown here:
ftotHealthExp_pC_USD_long-485x550.png


Or free Tertiary-Education that is free, gratis and for nothing allowing ALL our children to access a good job at good pay. From the National Center for Education Statistics:
Between 2000 and 2016, educational attainment rates among 25- to 29-year-olds increased. During this time, the percentage who had received at least a high school diploma or its equivalent increased from 88 to 92 percent, the percentage with an associate's or higher degree increased from 38 to 46 percent, the percentage with a bachelor's or higher degree increased from 29 to 36 percent, and the percentage with a master's or higher degree increased from 5 to 9 percent.
Click to expand...

That "38-to-46" percent is just not high-enough to guaranty our people with a better job in this Information Age that is now upon us. It must be closer to the same percentages for a high-school degree.
 What can be wrong with those two policies if they were guaranteed by the US government?
Must we really be spending 54% of our Discretionary Budget on the DoD - when we could be spending the money on Free Tertiary Education for our children thus bettering their lives ... ?
 
Fletch said:
Why not just be honest and say why you really oppose this tax plan? Let me help: you want our tax code to be used as a means of wealth transfer. Lowering the tax on those with wealth means you are limited on what you can steal from them to use for your own purposes.
Click to expand...

Who created that wealth? You and me and 156 million other workers in America. By our hard-work and by our Demand from goods&services!

I just want to see more of the "profit" coming back to those who worked to generate it.

Of course, that thought could not possibly exist in your realm of thinking ...
 
chuckiechan said:
The owners die, and the family can’t pay the estate taxes, so a corporate farm come in, makes an offer and they sell it. What do they farm? Subsidies. Mostly by agreeing not to grow certain crops, because they are already at their market quota.
Click to expand...

As long as Americans are fed, why should anybody care about farm subsidies or no-planting agreements.

Farming is one of the most-difficult fields of production to manage. Because farmers know what they are seeding, but never know what they are reaping. Believe me, I know that central fact because I happen to live in farm-country here in France.

And because of lower-cost grains from the US, the French farmers cannot get "decent" prices for theirs. Decent meaning, break even including a modest income. So, my tax dollars go to supporting them because the French want the countryside attended to and kept attractive. Which it is, and only one reason why France's biggest money-earner is tourism.

Farming is exceedingly difficult to compare across countries ...
 
MaggieD said:
You would be taken far more seriously if you could find a way to not call the POTUS Donald Dork. Bet you aced debate at Harvard, yes?
Click to expand...

He was born a dork, and will die a dork.

Read a rendition of his life. Telltale: His father was so upset with him as a teenager that DD was sent to finish high-school at a military academy. Some of his classmates got so upset with his shenanigans that they physically tried to shove him out a second-story window.

Understandable. They guy is suffering from acute narcissism.

Just google "Trump narcissism" and see what comes up ...
 
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Lafayette said:
Who created that wealth? You and me and 156 million other workers in America. By our hard-work and by our Demand from goods&services!

I just want to see more of the "profit" coming back to those who worked to generate it.

Of course, that thought could not possibly exist in your realm of thinking ...
Click to expand...

Your right it doesn't. Because I did nothing to create the wealth of the brilliant doctor, inventor, creator or industrialist, but I benefit from their achievements already. I have no need or right to rob them of what is rightfully theirs.

Of course, that thought could not possibly exist in your realm of thinking...
 
MaggieD said:
I think it’s also important to remember that, with careful estate planning, which the wealthy can easily afford, most, if not all inheritance tax can be avoided anyway. It’s done through annuities, trusts, life insurance and, I’m sure, many other vehicles of which I’m not aware.

Family farms are something else again. A farm that’s been in a family for, quite literally, many generations suddenly finds the farmland valued at highest and best use estimates generating an inheritance tax bill so enormous that the property itself must be sold to pay Uncle Sam. Not like ANOTHER farmer buys it... it’s bought up by the food conglomerates. Is that a good thing in and of itself? I’m not at all sure.

The double taxation that inheritance tax represents is, in my opinion, simply a gvmt confiscation of wealth.
Click to expand...

My argument has more to do with the presentation of the federal estate tax as some sort of hammer on small farms across the country. In reality it affects about half of one percent of all farm estates.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/federal-tax-issues/federal-estate-taxes.aspx

I won't even argue with you on the double taxation thing, because my real argument about that has more to do with my support for slowing the ever growing concentration of wealth at the top of the spectrum.
 
Lafayette said:
He was born a dork, and will die a dork.

Read a rendition of his life. Telltale: His father was so upset with him as a teenager that DD was sent to finish high-school at a military academy. Some of his classmates got so upset with his shenanigans that they physically tried to shove him out a second-story window.

Understandable. They guy is suffering from acute narcissism.

Just google "Trump narcissism" and see what comes up ...
Click to expand...

Almost every high level politician, wealthy or powerful person IN THE WORLD has narcissism. Period. So that personality description means very little, my friend. Their cocks are bigger. Their power is more important to them than almost everything else in their lives. So stop repeating what everyone knows, that Trump is a narcissist. So are half the members of the U.S. Congress.

And what he did as a teenager? Really?? What happened in some stupid frat house? Really?? Again.

People on this board who name-call are behaving like little children. Reminds me of junior high. If it were a perfect or even a BETTER Debate Politics forum, we could have intelligent debate and discussion, respect our differences and challenge our MINDS instead of reaching back into grade school and acting like kids.
 
MrPeanut said:
My argument has more to do with the presentation of the federal estate tax as some sort of hammer on small farms across the country. In reality it affects about half of one percent of all farm estates.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/federal-tax-issues/federal-estate-taxes.aspx

I won't even argue with you on the double taxation thing, because my real argument about that has more to do with my support for slowing the ever growing concentration of wealth at the top of the spectrum.
Click to expand...

As usual, Mr. Peanut, you are a reasonable man.
 
Lafayette said:
Who created that wealth? You and me and 156 million other workers in America. By our hard-work and by our Demand from goods&services!

I just want to see more of the "profit" coming back to those who worked to generate it.

Of course, that thought could not possibly exist in your realm of thinking ...
Click to expand...

Did Elon Musk create Tesla company’s wealth or did the workers?
 
MrPeanut said:
My argument has more to do with the presentation of the federal estate tax as some sort of hammer on small farms across the country. In reality it affects about half of one percent of all farm estates.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/federal-tax-issues/federal-estate-taxes.aspx

I won't even argue with you on the double taxation thing, because my real argument about that has more to do with my support for slowing the ever growing concentration of wealth at the top of the spectrum.
Click to expand...

Given the tax creativity encouraged by our hellishly complicated tax code, I wonder how much the federalies actually get from the estate tax.
 
MaggieD said:
You would be taken far more seriously if you could find a way to not call the POTUS Donald Dork. Bet you aced debate at Harvard, yes?
Click to expand...
I lose! Middle class in the new 25% tax bracket with 2 kids in college. Yippee!!!!

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