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Unfair upper-income taxation

The trouble ALWAYS present with the leftwing argument on taxes, is that they never reduce spending. In fact they have the gall to ask how tax cuts will be paid for. Let me clear this up, IT'S THE PEOPLE'S MONEY! Tax cuts don't need to be paid for, spending needs to be paid for; reduce your spending when you have less revenue.

most of the "wealth vandals" (if i cannot be rich I want the government to punish those who are) think most of the money belongs to the government so they figure tax cuts are the same as handouts
 
The purpose of an economic system is not the myopic accumulation of capital per se. It is (or should be) the well-being of ALL the people within the nation who share the benefits of their hard-earned work. And it should be a national objective to assure - not equal shares of the abundance - but equitable shares. Which is what taxation was intended to do, but amply fails at doing presently.

And what Americans know (but fail to acknowledge) is that the primary purpose of taxation today is to assure that the accent is solely upon accumulation of Wealth (and Net Worth, which is Wealth minus Debt). Meaning, in a pie-chart rendition, this:
Net_worth_and_financial_wealth.gif


How did it all go so wrong, so wrong, so wrong?


We started to get taxation wrong with JFK who had his Dem-congress reduce taxation (it was LBJ who signed it into law). Reckless Ronnie finished the job. The history of upper-income taxation reduction from above 90% to around 30% is plain enough for anybody to see - Here. Which substantiates the two general movements downward in upper-income taxation since the 1960s.

Note in the above infographic that it was Reckless Ronnie who hacked upper-income taxation down to the ridiculous level at which it finds itself today. That historical fact is evident in the infographic linked above. (When a Milt Romney can pay 14% on income of $13.6M and brag about it, one knows that something is very, very wrong. See here.)

What do both of those degradations in upper-income taxation mean to us as a nation today? That a very small class of plutocrats are very privileged in their taxation and spend-like-crazy to assure that Congress does not change the situation!

Zucman and Saez (UCal, Economics) show well enough the awful consequences of unfair taxation here:
20141108_FNC156.png



This above characterizes the world we live in today. Notably, the top 0.1% of the population obtain the same amount of Wealth generated by the other 90% of us.

And people may think that is fair and honest? When its an income-taxation rip-off that was planned and executed by the Replicants. You THINK you are fooling somebody?

Not anybody with the factual evidence, they're not foole for even one nanosecond ...

NB: There is a reason why 14% of the American population are incarcerated below the Poverty Threshold (of $23K income per family). It is because not enough is being done to prevent them from "falling through the cracks". Meaning having the educational perquisites that would permit them a better job. Which Bernie had suggested and Hillary offered were she elected PotUS. But, no, the election was manipulated to make Donald Dork the winner!

What is "fair"? Seems to me that if "fair" becomes our standard for taxation, then it should be our standard for spending and I am therefore owed a lot of back welfare checks, earned income tax credits, food stamps, and at least a couple boxes of post-it notes.
 
most of the "wealth vandals" (if i cannot be rich I want the government to punish those who are) think most of the money belongs to the government so they figure tax cuts are the same as handouts

Handouts to the wealthy.
 
The trouble ALWAYS present with the leftwing argument on taxes, is that they never reduce spending. In fact they have the gall to ask how tax cuts will be paid for. Let me clear this up, IT'S THE PEOPLE'S MONEY! Tax cuts don't need to be paid for, spending needs to be paid for; reduce your spending when you have less revenue.

sure, tax cuts don't need to be paid for (well, to a point; there's the Byrd rule if you want to do it via reconciliation.) however, one can't honestly claim to be a deficit hawk if he or she supports significant tax cuts during a shortfall, especially during wartime. in that case, one would be a tax cut hawk who also likes to claim that he or she is concerned about the deficit. it's kind of like the war hawks who would bitch about proposed wartime tax rates. also, spending doesn't need to be paid for either, apparently, as is evidenced by the actions of both parties.
 
Let's reinstitute "real" taxation at 92% (as it was before 1963) and see how many fat-cats jump ship with their billions. Shall we? ....


Just how much more do you want to give the FatCats on a free-ride from real taxation ... ?

Fun Fact: The Government of the United States of America actually has the Most Progressive Tax Code in the Developed World.


So you are right that it is unfair. It is unfairly balanced on the backs of the rich. If we want to make it more fair, we need to tax the middle class more. They are the ones actually currently getting a relatively free ride. :)
 


Yes, that source is where I live. Here in the European Union that has both a National Health System and Post-secondary Education - both of which are free, gratis and for nothing.

:lol: yes. In Magical Europe, doctors work for free, drugs are produced without costs, and teachers aren't paid. :)
 
So you are right that it is unfair. It is unfairly balanced on the backs of the rich. If we want to make it more fair, we need to tax the middle class more. They are the ones actually currently getting a relatively free ride. :)

Oh wow! You are one helluva funny guy.

The research data nonetheless proves you wrong and shows the ultimate result of "Highly Progressive Taxation" in America:
20141108_FNC156.png


I suffer fools badly ...

*The NBER is the National Bureau of Economic Research, btw.
 
What is "fair"? Seems to me that if "fair" becomes our standard for taxation, then it should be our standard for spending and I am therefore owed a lot of back welfare checks, earned income tax credits, food stamps, and at least a couple boxes of post-it notes.

If I've read this lamentation around here once, I've read it hundred times.

People like you think that presently low upper-income taxation is good and food-stamps are bad. The rich get richer and the poor go hungry.

When that explodes in your face - as it did in Watts Riots of 1965 - again in America, we'll see how smug you are.

Watts Riot photo:
300px-Wattsriots-burningbuildings-loc.jpg


People like you refuse to understand that the lack of a post-secondary education locks one into permanently underpaid employment (with a country minimum-wage rate of $7.25 and hour) - which in turn leads to human-desperation and societal-rioting.

When that happens and it's YOUR RESIDENCE going up in flames - do post a photo here, will you ... ?
 
Yes, because the US pumped tons of money into Europe after the war, and the same into Japan. Why? To fight the USSR.

The tons of money that Uncle Sam "pumped" into Europe were to a large extent for US government forces (airports, barracks, etc.) The last remnants of which will be leaving, since all that remained were expedient stopovers of US Air Force aircraft on their way to and from the Middle-east. As a result of the Afghan and Iraqi wars, recuperation of wounded soldiers were hospitalized here far sooner than had there been the need to get them back to the US.

A far larger part of financial-assistance in the 1950s went into the economic reconstruction of Europe as a bulwark against further Communist Expansion. Which worked, and for which Europeans have been very greatfull. As a Yank, I don't know how many times people I have lived with here in Europe have made that fact known to me.

Since then, and especially with Donald Dork, the political attitude towards Uncle Sam has taken a very different tone in Europe. ("Wait-'n-see" until Donald Dork is gone.)

American tourists are back, however, which is the good news ...
 
Oh wow! You are one helluva funny guy.

The research data nonetheless proves you wrong and shows the ultimate result of "Highly Progressive Taxation" in America:
20141108_FNC156.png

.
You appear to have "net worth" confused with "taxation". And I cited the data for you - it's the part you carefully deleted from your reply ;)
 


Yes, that source is where I live. Here in the European Union that has both a National Health System and Post-secondary Education - both of which are free, gratis and for nothing.

Meaning, easy entry and lo-cost promote the ability of our youth here to obtain the skills necessary for a well-paying job. It also helps them to analyze events lucidly and understand what is happening in both the EU and the rest of the world.

The ability to obtain a post-secondary degree without the barrier of a high-cost has produced this:
5.jpg


What the above shows is that after a disastrous war, Europe was able to catch-up in terms of skills-levels that has allowed the development of a market-economy of the same level as the victor; that is, the US.

And as regards Healthcare, which is also very lo-cost in Europe, money is not diverted from hi-cost Medical Care into the pockets of its purveyors as is the case in privatized medicine in the US, which is a rip-off (given the more than double the cost of EU healthcare).



Cuckoo logic, and asinine. We are better off in Europe for the above basic reasons, even though Americans are "financially richer" on average.

Generating millionaires is not what makes a country great (except in the eyes of Americans). Assuring that a market economy is fair and equitable - though not equal - is the most honest societal objective of any nation.

It's a shame Americans - fixated on absolute dollar-values ("the higher the better") - don't understand that simple but key concept ...

What you say is interesting. You talk about a market economy and then discount the only measure applicable to a market economy: Profitability.

In the EU, everything is obviously better, the people are smarter and the economy rewards the citizenry at a higher rate.

However, the population of the EU is almost 200 million people higher and the GDP of the EU is 1.5 Trillion lower as compared to the US. The obvious and only conclusion to be drawn from this is that people in the US are doing more with less. I guess this is only further proof of our laziness and stupidity.

Compared to the US, the EU's total population is about 56% greater and the total GDP is about 8% lower. That would work out to a pretty great discrepancy in a person to person GDP.

It's amazing how the better prepared, richer and more educated folks of the EU are producing at a rate so miserably low when compared to their American counterparts.

This is a real mystery that I cannot seem to figure out.

Perhaps you, with your superior education and more advanced, European preparedness for life could explain it for me. I'll wait here.

I have two cars in my attached garage in my house on a third of an acre of land and I'm what would be considered lower middle class around here. How does that compare to the lower middle class in Europe?

Just wondering how my ill prepared life might stack up.
 
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You appear to have "net worth" confused with "taxation". And I cited the data for you - it's the part you carefully deleted from your repl.

Nope - Net Worth is Wealth minus Debt.

Period - and so what?

If you want the same computation for Net Worth (which is even worse in terms of share), here* it is:
Net_worth_and_financial_wealth.gif


If you have statistical proof that from reputable sources that disputes the charts put up - then SHOW IT!

Till then, all you got is useless rhetorical blah, blah, blah ...

*From "Who Rules America - Power Politics and Social Change", GW Domhoff, UC Santa Cruz
 
If I've read this lamentation around here once, I've read it hundred times.

People like you think that presently low upper-income taxation is good and food-stamps are bad. The rich get richer and the poor go hungry.

When that explodes in your face - as it did in Watts Riots of 1965 - again in America, we'll see how smug you are.

Watts Riot photo:
300px-Wattsriots-burningbuildings-loc.jpg


People like you refuse to understand that the lack of a post-secondary education locks one into permanently underpaid employment (with a country minimum-wage rate of $7.25 and hour) - which in turn leads to human-desperation and societal-rioting.

When that happens and it's YOUR RESIDENCE going up in flames - do post a photo here, will you ... ?

yeah sure-when there are riots, the people most hurt are the neighbors and families of the rioters. wealthy conservative neighborhoods would be a lethal ground for urban rabble to riot in many cases
 
Why punish people for earning more money? It's a dumb system. With progressive income tax, we are literally building in systemic disincentives to earn more.

Besides labor should not be taxed at all. We should tax only consumption. After all, consumption is what ruins things, not labor.

Then when consumers do not buy due to lack of confidence, guess what jobs are lost.
I also support a progressive tax system.
The present Repub plan give the major cuts to Corps, when to spur the economy, provide the lower income- middle class more more, they purchase more.
 
ETHOS

In the EU, everything is obviously better, the people are smarter and the economy rewards the citizenry at a higher rate.

You're exaggerating. I'm not saying "everything is better".

I am saying two-attributes are better in the EU than in the US; that is, both attributes are key to "good-living". (And I don't mean "his 'n her" Ferraris!)

They are very lo-cost National Healthcare Service and Post-secondary Education. The former is requisite for a long and healthy life, the second central to a decent standard-of-living for all and not just some.

Neither of those two Very Important Public Services mentioned are beyond the reach of any people on earth who recognize and desire Good Lifestyles in varying degrees. "Success" is not a goal measured in just monetary terms. Well-being for all is the ultimate success of a nation.

There is no comparison between the French and the Americans. Both are very, very different animals intellectually. Both could have (but do not yet have) the uniform distribution for all of the two key attributes mentioned above. It's not rocket-science. It is just a matter of willingness and "ethos"

But as long as America remains fixated on "winners" and the sole identifier is "Muney, muney, muney", then we (are off an a gaming-track to nowhere. We do not understand that for any such "game" to have some winners, it needs plenty of losers.

Money should be a means to an end, not an end in itself. It is in defining those end-points that a nation makes its well-being. Foremost amongst said end-points should be a market-economy that assures sufficient means for all to live secure and healthy lives.

Texas these past few days has shown how bad we, as a nation, are at selecting the right end-points. What is it that makes a sociopath out of a young man who should have had everything to live for but chose death - and he would take 26 people with him to underscore his disappointment.

What happened in Texas is just one more fault-line in a long, long list ...
 
If I've read this lamentation around here once, I've read it hundred times.

People like you think that presently low upper-income taxation is good and food-stamps are bad. The rich get richer and the poor go hungry.

When that explodes in your face - as it did in Watts Riots of 1965 - again in America, we'll see how smug you are.

Watts Riot photo:
300px-Wattsriots-burningbuildings-loc.jpg


People like you refuse to understand that the lack of a post-secondary education locks one into permanently underpaid employment (with a country minimum-wage rate of $7.25 and hour) - which in turn leads to human-desperation and societal-rioting.

When that happens and it's YOUR RESIDENCE going up in flames - do post a photo here, will you ... ?

I didn't say anything about tax rates being low or high. I asked what is fair. Since you have heard it 100's of times, I would think you would be able to answer the question. Apparently not.
 
cpwill said:
You appear to have "net worth" confused with "taxation". And I cited the data for you - it's the part you carefully deleted from your reply.
Nope - Net Worth is Wealth minus Debt.

That is correct. Now. Take a look at the chart you posted, from which you attempted to draw a lesson about who is taxed in America.

Oh wow! You are one helluva funny guy.

The research data nonetheless proves you wrong and shows the ultimate result of "Highly Progressive Taxation" in America:
20141108_FNC156.png

See that top right corner? Does it say "Relative burden of taxation"? Or does it say "Percentage of Total Net Household Wealth"?

:)


If you have statistical proof that from reputable sources...

:) I linked several sources for you in post 55. You carefully snipped them out of your reply.

Fun Fact: The Government of the United States of America actually has the Most Progressive Tax Code in the Developed World.

So you are right that it is unfair. It is unfairly balanced on the backs of the rich. If we want to make it more fair, we need to tax the middle class more. They are the ones actually currently getting a relatively free ride.

:)
 
People like you refuse to understand that the lack of a post-secondary education locks one into permanently underpaid employment (with a country minimum-wage rate of $7.25 and hour) - which in turn leads to human-desperation and societal-rioting.

Gosh. Don't tell my uncle that. He might wonder how come he managed to build a multi-million dollar construction company, and move from a trailer to a 4-story lake-house. You could give the guy a real crises of confidence.
 
A SAINT IN THE REPLICANT RELIGION

You appear to have "net worth" confused with "taxation". And I cited the data for you - it's the part you carefully deleted from your reply.

Yeah, right ... because Wealth is not Revenue minus Taxation?

Like Net Worth is not Wealth minus Debt?

I posted that UofCal infographic and you did not even bother to understand when the 0.1Percenter line curved upwards. In the 1980s.

And who was PotUS? Reckless Ronnie.

Who is now a Saint in the Replicant Religion? (Two guesses, the first one doesn't count ...)

PS1: And because We, the Stupids, elected Donald Dork he too will genuflect before Ronnie's statue by signing legislation that reduces yet-again upper-income taxation. (As if they didn't have enough.)
PS2: Thus kissing the arses of the BigMoneyMen who helped him get elected. How boringly predictable can a party become?
 
Yeah, right ... because Wealth is not Revenue minus Taxation?

Nope. That's post-tax income (similar to take-home pay). That doesn't become wealth because we have something called the cost of living, and secondly, people consume different amounts above that.

Your chart says net wealth. Not "income", and not "post-tax income". Apparently, even with a reminder, you didn't bother to read it.

Like Net Worth is not Wealth minus Debt?

As I told you it was.

I posted that UofCal infographic and you did not even bother to understand when the 0.1Percenter line curved upwards. In the 1980s.

And who was PotUS? Reckless Ronnie.

Who is now a Saint in the Replicant Religion? (Two guesses, the first one doesn't count ...)

PS1: And because We, the Stupids, elected Donald Dork he too will genuflect before Ronnie's statue by signing legislation that reduces yet-again upper-income taxation. (As if they didn't have enough.)
PS2: Thus kissing the arses of the BigMoneyMen who helped him get elected. How boringly predictable can a party become?

:yawn: I guess I've seen more desperately obvious attempts to change the subject rather than admit one screwed up, but I'll admit, not many, and none that I can think of off-hand.
 
Taxes are not suppose to be fair. Taxes are there to pay for stuff that society has agreed to do together. It is all about burden, and that is why you have a tax system where the rich should pay relatively more in % than the poor or middle classes.

And that is why we have the system we have. The lower half (roughly) of US earners pay no federal income tax at all.
 
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If 3% growth can be sustained then many things become possible. And then what about 4%?

The Left Is Baffled Over Trump's Economic Revival
Stephen Moore, Investor's Biz Daily

". . . One reason that economist Larry Kudlow and I and others assured Donald Trump that 3 to 4 percent growth was achievable was that Trump could capitalize on the underperformance of the Obama years. Under Obama, business investment fell almost two-thirds below the long-term trend line -- thanks to higher taxes on investment. Now, partly in anticipation of the tax cut, business spending keeps climbing. . . ."
 
The purpose of an economic system is not the myopic accumulation of capital per se. It is (or should be) the well-being of ALL the people within the nation who share the benefits of their hard-earned work. And it should be a national objective to assure - not equal shares of the abundance - but equitable shares. Which is what taxation was intended to do, but amply fails at doing presently.

And what Americans know (but fail to acknowledge) is that the primary purpose of taxation today is to assure that the accent is solely upon accumulation of Wealth (and Net Worth, which is Wealth minus Debt). Meaning, in a pie-chart rendition, this:
Net_worth_and_financial_wealth.gif


How did it all go so wrong, so wrong, so wrong?


We started to get taxation wrong with JFK who had his Dem-congress reduce taxation (it was LBJ who signed it into law). Reckless Ronnie finished the job. The history of upper-income taxation reduction from above 90% to around 30% is plain enough for anybody to see - Here. Which substantiates the two general movements downward in upper-income taxation since the 1960s.

Note in the above infographic that it was Reckless Ronnie who hacked upper-income taxation down to the ridiculous level at which it finds itself today. That historical fact is evident in the infographic linked above. (When a Milt Romney can pay 14% on income of $13.6M and brag about it, one knows that something is very, very wrong. See here.)

What do both of those degradations in upper-income taxation mean to us as a nation today? That a very small class of plutocrats are very privileged in their taxation and spend-like-crazy to assure that Congress does not change the situation!

Zucman and Saez (UCal, Economics) show well enough the awful consequences of unfair taxation here:
20141108_FNC156.png



This above characterizes the world we live in today. Notably, the top 0.1% of the population obtain the same amount of Wealth generated by the other 90% of us.

And people may think that is fair and honest? When its an income-taxation rip-off that was planned and executed by the Replicants. You THINK you are fooling somebody?

Not anybody with the factual evidence, they're not foole for even one nanosecond ...

NB: There is a reason why 14% of the American population are incarcerated below the Poverty Threshold (of $23K income per family). It is because not enough is being done to prevent them from "falling through the cracks". Meaning having the educational perquisites that would permit them a better job. Which Bernie had suggested and Hillary offered were she elected PotUS. But, no, the election was manipulated to make Donald Dork the winner!

A tax system in which the lower half (roughly) is entirely exempt from taxation does not seem unfairly inequitable to me.
 
A tax system in which the lower half (roughly) is entirely exempt from taxation does not seem unfairly inequitable to me.

That depends on their income and cost of living, taxes being based on the ability to pay.
 
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