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The "Not in the Labor Pool", how do they live?

H

Hawkeye10

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The government does not call them unemployed because according to their rules those who are not looking for work dont qualify, even if the reason is that they have given up because of lack of opportunity. We know however that there are tons of people who have dropped out of the official economy, especially the lowly educated and especially men over 50. How do they sustain themselves? Food stamps I suspect helps a little but only a little.

Are they:
1) living off friends and family who are employed?

2) are they working off the books, illegally?

3) are they suffering poverty?

4) Are they sustained by charity operations such as food banks?

5) a combination of the above?

And why dont we know? Surely the full power of the government is enough power to go find the answer, it is almost like we dont want to know, so no one asked the question. Journalists and scientists could also find out I am sure, and yet they dont. People who cant or wont work official jobs have become like the mentally ill, invisible, the disappeared, almost no one wants to talk or think about them.


So let us think and talk about them, what do you think is going on?

I think it is a combination, but I think there is less mooching off of others and charity than we figure because I figure that black market labor is a much bigger part of the economy than we know, because the government has no interest in advertising this, which is why they dont want to have command of the facts here.



A link to help with the thinking:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/28/16050276/real-unemployment-rate
 
So far, there's nothing in the Constitution that Forces People to Work or as Slave to anyone's Business ... So Far.

You can't Count someone as Staving if they choose to Fast.
 
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Hawkeye10 said:
The government does not call them unemployed because according to their rules those who are not looking for work dont qualify, even if the reason is that they have given up because of lack of opportunity. We know however that there are tons of people who have dropped out of the official economy, especially the lowly educated and especially men over 50. How do they sustain themselves? Food stamps I suspect helps a little but only a little.

Are they:
1) living off friends and family who are employed?

2) are they working off the books, illegally?

3) are they suffering poverty?

4) Are they sustained by charity operations such as food banks?

5) a combination of the above?

And why dont we know? Surely the full power of the government is enough power to go find the answer, it is almost like we dont want to know, so no one asked the question. Journalists and scientists could also find out I am sure, and yet they dont. People who cant or wont work official jobs have become like the mentally ill, invisible, the disappeared, almost no one wants to talk or think about them.


So let us think and talk about them, what do you think is going on?

I think it is a combination, but I think there is less mooching off of others and charity than we figure because I figure that black market labor is a much bigger part of the economy than we know, because the government has no interest in advertising this, which is why they dont want to have command of the facts here.



A link to help with the thinking:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/28/16050276/real-unemployment-rate
Click to expand...

Retired.
Spouse who makes enough that they don't have to work.
Self-employed.
 
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Purely anecdotal, but I know one guy who is not in the "labor pool" and he fits a number of your categories. He is constantly moving and staying with friends or in his car. He works odd jobs that pays cash. He gets food from the food banks when he can. It's how he wants it.
 
Cigar said:
So far, there's nothing in the Constitution that Forces People to Work or as Slave to anyone's Business ... So Far.

You can Count someone as Staving if they choose to Fast.
Click to expand...

Wages are not going up much which no one can figure out the why about but there are tons of jobs open and tons of people who are not working. I am going to take the Dr Phil attitude here and conclude that whatever the "Not Working" are doing they prefer over working the jobs that are on offer......so what do you figure they are doing that is better than working a legal job?
 
Hawkeye10 said:
We know however that there are tons of people who have dropped out of the official economy, especially the lowly educated and especially men over 50. How do they sustain themselves?
Click to expand...
Most of those not in the labor force are retired, students, or home makers / caring for family.

How do the rest live? Quite poorly.

Typically, they are cycling in and out of work. AFAIK there isn't a high percentage of people who are, say, in their 40s who have permanently dropped out of the workforce.

Some live with family, rarely with friends. Unfortunately, this often destabilizes both groups, and often results in someone ending up homeless. It can also expose the less fortunate to all sorts of abuse.

Food stamps help, but not much. Payouts are low, and people need money for things other than food. Same with private charities, they are very limited in their ability to help.

They tend to avoid TANF, because the requirements are onerous, and take up time and resources that are better used looking for work.

I believe some also live off their savings, and start Social Security as early as possible (63 iirc).


And why dont we know?
Click to expand...
Some of us do know.

Kathryn Edin wrote an illuminating and depressing book on this subject, with an eye towards discussing the effects of the Clinton welfare reforms. If you want to know how the poorest of the poor survive, this should be your first stop.
https://www.amazon.com/2-00-Day-Living-Nothing-America/dp/054481195X

Think tanks like Brookings talks about it all the time:
https://www.brookings.edu/topic/poverty/

Census Bureau also does research on poverty
https://www.census.gov/topics/income-poverty/poverty.html

There's even research on how poverty saps one's cognitive functions, and makes you focus on short-term goals (often in very resourceful ways) at the expense of choices that are better in the long term:
Poverty Impedes Cognitive Function | Science
and
This Is Your Stressed-Out Brain On Scarcity : Shots - Health News : NPR
 
Visbek said:
Most of those not in the labor force are retired, students, or home makers / caring for family.

How do the rest live? Quite poorly.

Typically, they are cycling in and out of work.
-------------------
snip
Click to expand...

When I had my restaurant I saw a lot of guys who worked just enough to be qualified for unemployment sometimes, the rest of the time they were working illegally or were strung out on drugs. Yes we do know something about poverty but according to the poverty experts people living in poverty should be lining up for the jobs we have open now, and they are not, maybe because they cant pass a drug test IDK but I do know that where I live fast food jobs are going begging, even in Seattle with the implementation of the $15 min wage. If the promise of $15/hr for McD's work is not enough to entice people back into the labor market then we need to get a better understanding of what is going on, because we obviously dont get it.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The government does not call them unemployed because according to their rules those who are not looking for work dont qualify, even if the reason is that they have given up because of lack of opportunity. We know however that there are tons of people who have dropped out of the official economy, especially the lowly educated and especially men over 50. How do they sustain themselves? Food stamps I suspect helps a little but only a little.

Are they:
1) living off friends and family who are employed?

2) are they working off the books, illegally?

3) are they suffering poverty?

4) Are they sustained by charity operations such as food banks?

5) a combination of the above?

And why dont we know? Surely the full power of the government is enough power to go find the answer, it is almost like we dont want to know, so no one asked the question. Journalists and scientists could also find out I am sure, and yet they dont. People who cant or wont work official jobs have become like the mentally ill, invisible, the disappeared, almost no one wants to talk or think about them.


So let us think and talk about them, what do you think is going on?

I think it is a combination, but I think there is less mooching off of others and charity than we figure because I figure that black market labor is a much bigger part of the economy than we know, because the government has no interest in advertising this, which is why they dont want to have command of the facts here.



A link to help with the thinking:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/28/16050276/real-unemployment-rate
Click to expand...

My brother is 28, and he is one of the not in the labor pool people. He lives on our ancestral property, in a house our grandfather built by hand. He makes money by scrapping, buying and selling in the areas surprisingly developed barter system, and doing the odd tattoo. He's not on any government assistance, he does have the VA for medical care, and he seems pretty content. He probably makes more money scrapping than he would at a minimum wage job.

Plenty of people can get by without a traditional job, it's actually not all that hard.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The government does not call them unemployed because according to their rules those who are not looking for work dont qualify, even if the reason is that they have given up because of lack of opportunity. We know however that there are tons of people who have dropped out of the official economy, especially the lowly educated and especially men over 50. How do they sustain themselves? Food stamps I suspect helps a little but only a little.

Are they:
1) living off friends and family who are employed?

2) are they working off the books, illegally?

3) are they suffering poverty?

4) Are they sustained by charity operations such as food banks?

5) a combination of the above?

And why dont we know? Surely the full power of the government is enough power to go find the answer, it is almost like we dont want to know, so no one asked the question. Journalists and scientists could also find out I am sure, and yet they dont. People who cant or wont work official jobs have become like the mentally ill, invisible, the disappeared, almost no one wants to talk or think about them.


So let us think and talk about them, what do you think is going on?

I think it is a combination, but I think there is less mooching off of others and charity than we figure because I figure that black market labor is a much bigger part of the economy than we know, because the government has no interest in advertising this, which is why they dont want to have command of the facts here.



A link to help with the thinking:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/28/16050276/real-unemployment-rate
Click to expand...

I suspect that those over fifty kept their Pennies together and are enjoying their twilight years.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Guys 50 and over like me ya, except "self employed" tends to be "illegally employed" from what I see.
Click to expand...
???

--

Yes, there are criminally employed within our society.

But more self-employed are criminals, than business owners or independent contractors? Really?

--

I like that you come up with interesting and outside-the-box ideas and topics, that often get me to think. But man, sometimes you go to some amazing reaches to support your theories or ideologies!
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Guys 50 and over like me ya, except "self employed" tends to be "illegally employed" from what I see.
Click to expand...

That depends on how old you are and how much you make. I retired at 57 - a number of months before the big crash, so I missed the turmoil personally in most respects, but just by a hair. I do remember reading an economist or somebody like that who claimed that if you were in your 50's and lost your job in 2009, you were basically retired whether you knew it or not. Seems about right.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The government does not call them unemployed because according to their rules those who are not looking for work dont qualify, even if the reason is that they have given up because of lack of opportunity. We know however that there are tons of people who have dropped out of the official economy, especially the lowly educated and especially men over 50. How do they sustain themselves? Food stamps I suspect helps a little but only a little.

Are they:
1) living off friends and family who are employed?

2) are they working off the books, illegally?

3) are they suffering poverty?

4) Are they sustained by charity operations such as food banks?

5) a combination of the above?

And why dont we know? Surely the full power of the government is enough power to go find the answer, it is almost like we dont want to know, so no one asked the question. Journalists and scientists could also find out I am sure, and yet they dont. People who cant or wont work official jobs have become like the mentally ill, invisible, the disappeared, almost no one wants to talk or think about them.


So let us think and talk about them, what do you think is going on?

I think it is a combination, but I think there is less mooching off of others and charity than we figure because I figure that black market labor is a much bigger part of the economy than we know, because the government has no interest in advertising this, which is why they dont want to have command of the facts here.



A link to help with the thinking:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/28/16050276/real-unemployment-rate
Click to expand...

My experience with chronically unemployed is none are really hurting for cash. Most have a "hustle" that keeps green flowing through their hands, oftentimes more than I make in a week. Problem is that most of that income, be it legal or illegal, comes at high risk or is fleeting.

A lot of the time, the money is borrowed (think of a bookie who is underwritten by someone with capital or even a drug dealer, who gets all his stash on front) and most of it is just passing through the guy's hands. At other times, it's money from a big score, but cash that soon gets blown on drugs, women, parties, etc. Rarely is it steady income. But, no one is starving. That is for sure.

Women, if they are young enough and pretty, have it a little different but usually not much different. A lot of them are living off someone with money. A few are selling themselves on the web, in clubs or on the streets. A lot more than people realize shoplift and sell the proceeds.
 
Cigar said:
So far, there's nothing in the Constitution that Forces People to Work or as Slave to anyone's Business ... So Far.

You can't Count someone as Staving if they choose to Fast.
Click to expand...

But should others pay for the fellow not starving, when he needs medical needs.
 
Chomsky said:
???

--

Yes, there are criminally employed within our society.

But more self-employed are criminals, than business owners or independent contractors? Really?

--

I like that you come up with interesting and outside-the-box ideas and topics, that often get me to think. But man, sometimes you go to some amazing reaches to support your theories or ideologies!
Click to expand...

I think it's more the managers at Volkswagen and BMW we might want to keep the old eye on.
 
calamity said:
My experience with chronically unemployed is none are really hurting for cash. Most have a "hustle" that keeps green flowing through their hands, oftentimes more than I make in a week. Problem is that most of that income, be it legal or illegal, comes at high risk or is fleeting.

A lot of the time, the money is borrowed (think of a bookie who is underwritten by someone with capital or even a drug dealer, who gets all his stash on front) and most of it is just passing through the guy's hands. At other times, it's money from a big score, but cash that soon gets blown on drugs, women, parties, etc. Rarely is it steady income. But, no one is starving. That is for sure.

Women, if they are young enough and pretty, have it a little different but usually not much different. A lot of them are living off someone with money. A few are selling themselves on the web, in clubs or on the streets. A lot more than people realize shoplift and sell the proceeds.
Click to expand...

Well sure, as this country goes down the tubes everyone's lifestyle becomes more precarious, except for those at the top, either in wealth or skills needed to drive that wealth.

But I also sense that people are lowering their expectations in life, and driving that life with experiences rather than stuff.....they have no desire to be good consumers......look at how the retail trade is collapsing. Sure it has long been over built, restaurants especially so since the almost was a depression Great Recession, but something huge is going on in this country re the American dream and consumerism, and I am not seeing hardly anyone being interested in understanding it.
 
humbolt said:
That depends on how old you are and how much you make. I retired at 57 - a number of months before the big crash, so I missed the turmoil personally in most respects, but just by a hair. I do remember reading an economist or somebody like that who claimed that if you were in your 50's and lost your job in 2009, you were basically retired whether you knew it or not. Seems about right.
Click to expand...

Oh ya, that is right, but less so for women.
 
joG said:
But should others pay for the fellow not starving, when he needs medical needs.
Click to expand...

If you're retired, you should live off your retirement funds ... if you're disabled, use disability.

If you're unemployed but looking, unemployment.

If you just don't feel like working ... saylavee
 
If you are healthy and don't have any dependents then it is really easy to "get by" without a regular income. Just takes a little "hustle".
 
Hawkeye10 said:
When I had my restaurant I saw a lot of guys who worked just enough to be qualified for unemployment sometimes, the rest of the time they were working illegally or were strung out on drugs.
Click to expand...
That may be the case, but that's also a pretty specific area and industry. Seattle is dealing with a very tight labor market, especially for low-wage earners, who can't afford to live anywhere near those jobs. Anyone with a clean record and a pulse is almost certainly looking for better types of work, like retail.

Also, I don't know your time frame, but: People are noticing that with the recovered labor market, the opium epidemic and drug use is causing a big issue for employers:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/24/business/economy/drug-test-labor-hiring.html


I do know that where I live fast food jobs are going begging, even in Seattle with the implementation of the $15 min wage. If the promise of $15/hr for McD's work is not enough to entice people back into the labor market then we need to get a better understanding of what is going on, because we obviously dont get it.
Click to expand...
One problem in your case is that even $15/hour isn't enough to live on in Seattle.

E.g. the average rent in Seattle for a 1BR right now is $2000/month. For someone earning $15/hour, that's 3/4 of their income (before taxes!). A relatively cheap neighborhood like North College Park will still have an average rent of $1200/mo, which is still 46% of pre-tax income. And that's assuming you can get a full-time position, which is not always the case for low-wage workers; often they are stuck in part-time positions, which schedules that get scrambled on a weekly basis, making it difficult to get a second part-time job or handle other tasks (school, child care etc).

Ideally you should be spending about 1/3 of your income on housing, which would be around $780/mo. A Zillow search for apartments $500-800/mo yields, I **** you not, 4 results. 3 of them are studios that are less than 200 square feet. Even shared units (e.g. on roommates.com) are not particularly cheap. You could live in Kent or a nearby suburb, but now you have to tack on higher commuting costs, more travel time, etc...

Keep in mind that low-wage workers can still receive benefits like food stamps, EITC and Medicaid, so it's unlikely there is a welfare cliff. Plus, TANF enrollment is very low, pays poorly, and again inadvertently blocks recipients from getting jobs.
 
Visbek said:
That may be the case, but that's also a pretty specific area and industry. Seattle is dealing with a very tight labor market, especially for low-wage earners, who can't afford to live anywhere near those jobs. Anyone with a clean record and a pulse is almost certainly looking for better types of work, like retail.

Also, I don't know your time frame, but: People are noticing that with the recovered labor market, the opium epidemic and drug use is causing a big issue for employers:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/24/business/economy/drug-test-labor-hiring.html



One problem in your case is that even $15/hour isn't enough to live on in Seattle.

E.g. the average rent in Seattle for a 1BR right now is $2000/month. For someone earning $15/hour, that's 3/4 of their income (before taxes!). A relatively cheap neighborhood like North College Park will still have an average rent of $1200/mo, which is still 46% of pre-tax income. And that's assuming you can get a full-time position, which is not always the case for low-wage workers; often they are stuck in part-time positions, which schedules that get scrambled on a weekly basis, making it difficult to get a second part-time job or handle other tasks (school, child care etc).

Ideally you should be spending about 1/3 of your income on housing, which would be around $780/mo. A Zillow search for apartments $500-800/mo yields, I **** you not, 4 results. 3 of them are studios that are less than 200 square feet. Even shared units (e.g. on roommates.com) are not particularly cheap. You could live in Kent or a nearby suburb, but now you have to tack on higher commuting costs, more travel time, etc...

Keep in mind that low-wage workers can still receive benefits like food stamps, EITC and Medicaid, so it's unlikely there is a welfare cliff. Plus, TANF enrollment is very low, pays poorly, and again inadvertently blocks recipients from getting jobs.
Click to expand...

The problem with that argument is that the $15 is only in Seattle, the county decided to not do it, so people can live real close for much cheaper and commute, this should not be a problem since the wages near seattle run multiple dollars per hour below Seattle wages. The regional transit is some of the best in the nation and if people need a car for super early starts or after midnight get out times they can afford it on $15 per hour plus often tips as well. There is a huge hospitality industry on the Monterey Peninsula, which I worked in when I touched down in 1987, and I lived there off and on for a total of six years, even in 1987 at least half the workers lived in Salinas, A half hour drive away on a good day which were rare, the bus longer. By 1999 my last year practically all workers had been priced out of the Peninsula. Workers have always been found however, because the pay has always been good.
 
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Hawkeye10 said:
Wages are not going up much which no one can figure out the why about but there are tons of jobs open and tons of people who are not working. I am going to take the Dr Phil attitude here and conclude that whatever the "Not Working" are doing they prefer over working the jobs that are on offer......so what do you figure they are doing that is better than working a legal job?
Click to expand...

Its quite clear why wages have been flat for forty years.

The ownership class figured out they could increase profits by activities like outsourcing.
 
What if...? said:
Its quite clear why wages have been flat for forty years.

The ownership class figured out they could increase profits by activities like outsourcing.
Click to expand...

My brother was without a job last year for about five months...He decided that the government makes it way too easy to get by without working, which he does not approve of. He rolled OCare into the government handout basket.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
My brother was without a job last year for about five months...He decided that the government makes it way too easy to get by without working, which he does not approve of. He rolled OCare into the government handout basket.
Click to expand...

Has nothing to do with why wages are flat.

If your point was relevant it would push wages up because too many would be on the "dole" for them to find good help.
 
What if...? said:
Has nothing to do with why wages are flat.

If your point was relevant it would push wages up because too many would be on the "dole" for them to find good help.
Click to expand...

The so called experts have for at least three years been trying to figure out why this so-called recovery is not driving wages up, how do you know?
 
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