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In Towns Hit by Factory Closings, a New Casualty: Retail Jobs

Lafayette

Lafayette

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From the NYT: In Towns Hit by Factory Closings, a New Casualty: Retail Jobs - excerpt:

Thousands of workers face unemployment as retailers struggle to adapt to online shopping. But even as e-commerce grows, it isn’t absorbing these workers.

Small cities in the Midwest and Northeast are particularly vulnerable. When major industries left town, retail accounted for a growing share of the job market in places like Johnstown, Decatur, Ill., and Saginaw, Mich. Now, the work force is getting hit a second time, and there is little to fall back on.

Moreover, while stores in these places are shedding jobs because of e-commerce, e-commerce isn’t absorbing these workers. Growth in e-commerce jobs like marketing and engineering, while strong, is clustered around larger cities far away. Rural counties and small metropolitan areas account for about 23 percent of traditional American retail employment, but they are home to just 13 percent of e-commerce positions.

E-commerce has also fostered a boom in other industries, including warehouses. But most of those jobs are being created in larger metropolitan areas, an analysis of Census Bureau business data shows.
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I keep harping about the absolute necessity of making a Post-secondary education free available from state-schools free-of-charge. If not, about 45% of our children will never ever obtain the instruction they need to pull themselves into good jobs at a decent pay. Even those merchandizing workers today sidelined by Internet shopping will need to obtain a further education in order to keep up. Meaning they are unemployed for longer periods of time.

All of that ends up at a greater cost than providing free-of-charge post-secondary education (at state schools) just as we do primary and secondary schooling nowadays.

The handwriting is on the wall. We disregard it at our peril, and that of our children ...
 
Good post. We also must remember to include skilled trades in education as we badly need more plumbers, electricians, brick worker, painters and other areas.

The other day I went through a list of people who can put up tile for a kitchen backsplash... (not just those big sections on mats that you slap on but smaller individual tiles in an intricate and tricky pattern) and talked to several on a list from the tile store and the soonest any of them could get to me was eight weeks away - and that was an optimistic estimate. And he gets $400 per day to do it and you pay for all the materials.

We should be encouraging young people to learn these skills and then can make lots of money doing it.
 
Lafayette said:
From the NYT: In Towns Hit by Factory Closings, a New Casualty: Retail Jobs - excerpt:



I keep harping about the absolute necessity of making a Post-secondary education free available from state-schools free-of-charge. If not, about 45% of our children will never ever obtain the instruction they need to pull themselves into good jobs at a decent pay. Even those merchandizing workers today sidelined by Internet shopping will need to obtain a further education in order to keep up. Meaning they are unemployed for longer periods of time.

All of that ends up at a greater cost than providing free-of-charge post-secondary education (at state schools) just as we do primary and secondary schooling nowadays.

The handwriting is on the wall. We disregard it at our peril, and that of our children ...
Click to expand...

Still calling for the freebees lifestyle, I see. That doesn't really make sense, you know, unless the kids can read and have the socialisation to make something out of all yhat investment.
 
Colonial societal wealth extraction. First the power structure decided it no longer required american workers for production. Now they have decided they no longer require american workers for consumption, India and China will replace your role there. Capital is simply moving on, as it does post maximal extraction, to greener pastures.
 
Fenton Lum said:
Colonial societal wealth extraction. First the power structure decided it no longer required american workers for production. Now they have decided they no longer require american workers for consumption, India and China will replace your role there. Capital is simply moving on, as it does post maximal extraction, to greener pastures.
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Next step, the Big Retail Box plazas decide it's better business to let the banks foreclose on their REITs. No market for them and the banks can have another cardiac arrythmia like 2008. Maybe they can get Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to swallow those toxic portfolios. No change. "Privatize the profits, socialize the liabilities." Bend over, Citizen.
/
 
Lafayette said:
From the NYT: In Towns Hit by Factory Closings, a New Casualty: Retail Jobs - excerpt:



I keep harping about the absolute necessity of making a Post-secondary education free available from state-schools free-of-charge. If not, about 45% of our children will never ever obtain the instruction they need to pull themselves into good jobs at a decent pay. Even those merchandizing workers today sidelined by Internet shopping will need to obtain a further education in order to keep up. Meaning they are unemployed for longer periods of time.

All of that ends up at a greater cost than providing free-of-charge post-secondary education (at state schools) just as we do primary and secondary schooling nowadays.

The handwriting is on the wall. We disregard it at our peril, and that of our children ...
Click to expand...

I guess they can all polish robots for Amazon, but you won't be hiring many $400 a day tile setters on what Amazon pays!
 
Lafayette said:
From the NYT: In Towns Hit by Factory Closings, a New Casualty: Retail Jobs - excerpt:



I keep harping about the absolute necessity of making a Post-secondary education free available from state-schools free-of-charge. If not, about 45% of our children will never ever obtain the instruction they need to pull themselves into good jobs at a decent pay. Even those merchandizing workers today sidelined by Internet shopping will need to obtain a further education in order to keep up. Meaning they are unemployed for longer periods of time.

All of that ends up at a greater cost than providing free-of-charge post-secondary education (at state schools) just as we do primary and secondary schooling nowadays.

The handwriting is on the wall. We disregard it at our peril, and that of our children ...
Click to expand...

None of that matters if the population is going to increase by 100,000,000 people every 30 years. Even if 100% of the workforce is college educated, population trends will see wages diminish or remain stagnant for all but a select few.

The USA will reach 1 billion residents by 2100. This will be disastrous for quality of life issues. I'm convinced that the USA will be a slave labor state like China by 2100.

Many people here will be apathetic to what I just said, but this generation will one day be known for having had the opportunity to do something about this, but didn't.


Expert: U.S. population to hit 1 billion by 2100 - USATODAY.com
 
Answer me this.
We use to have an education system that taught trades or college prep. Why were the "trades" classes dropped?

People have always needed either a skill/trade (plumber, mechanic, framer, etc) or needed a higher education in a field that has/had job potential. Getting a degree in something that has limited application is pretty worthless. For example, how many got a degree in art and have no job compared to someone who got a degree in computer science?

People need to be smart in what type of education they pursue and in what field. I only hope our high schools bring back some of the trade classes they had when I was in high school.
 
mike2810 said:
Answer me this.
We use to have an education system that taught trades or college prep. Why were the "trades" classes dropped?

People have always needed either a skill/trade (plumber, mechanic, framer, etc) or needed a higher education in a field that has/had job potential. Getting a degree in something that has limited application is pretty worthless. For example, how many got a degree in art and have no job compared to someone who got a degree in computer science?

People need to be smart in what type of education they pursue and in what field. I only hope our high schools bring back some of the trade classes they had when I was in high school.
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I would take a guess and say they cost to much.

The football field and swimming pool were more important
 
truthatallcost said:
None of that matters if the population is going to increase by 100,000,000 people every 30 years. Even if 100% of the workforce is college educated, population trends will see wages diminish or remain stagnant for all but a select few.

The USA will reach 1 billion residents by 2100. This will be disastrous for quality of life issues. I'm convinced that the USA will be a slave labor state like China by 2100.

Many people here will be apathetic to what I just said, but this generation will one day be known for having had the opportunity to do something about this, but didn't.


Expert: U.S. population to hit 1 billion by 2100 - USATODAY.com
Click to expand...

If we are lucky nature will fix things as usual. Instead of influenza the black plague now that it is the jet age we can spread Ebola all across the globe. If bats can be carriers maybe it can make the jump to rats or squirrels. Instead of isolated pockets in Africa they can come to every major city in the world. Cut the population in half in less than a year would fix things in a hurry. Maybe we should let those know it all bring this disease to every continent and see what happens.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
If we are lucky nature will fix things as usual. Instead of influenza the black plague now that it is the jet age we can spread Ebola all across the globe. If bats can be carriers maybe it can make the jump to rats or squirrels. Instead of isolated pockets in Africa they can come to every major city in the world. Cut the population in half in less than a year would fix things in a hurry. Maybe we should let those know it all bring this disease to every continent and see what happens.
Click to expand...

I don't endorse this, and I hope you're kidding.
 
mike2810 said:
Answer me this.
We use to have an education system that taught trades or college prep. Why were the "trades" classes dropped?
Click to expand...

The government pushed for everyone to go to college. Barack Obama stated that he wanted every American to have at least 2 years of college.

People have always needed either a skill/trade (plumber, mechanic, framer, etc) or needed a higher education in a field that has/had job potential. Getting a degree in something that has limited application is pretty worthless. For example, how many got a degree in art and have no job compared to someone who got a degree in computer science?

People need to be smart in what type of education they pursue and in what field. I only hope our high schools bring back some of the trade classes they had when I was in high school.
Click to expand...

The idea today is that those are jobs for legal/illegal immigrants. Also, most kids today have been brought up to look down on that kind of work. I can't count the number of students I went to college with who were taking psychology classes, because they just weren't good with math and science, and wouldn't be caught dead learning a trade. My college had a 2 semester waiting list for psychology and sociology classes. I wonder how many of the students I went to school with are sociologists and psychologists now.
 
truthatallcost said:
The government pushed for everyone to go to college. Barack Obama stated that he wanted every American to have at least 2 years of college.



The idea today is that those are jobs for legal/illegal immigrants. Also, most kids today have been brought up to look down on that kind of work. I can't count the number of students I went to college with who were taking psychology classes, because they just weren't good with math and science, and wouldn't be caught dead learning a trade. My college had a 2 semester waiting list for psychology and sociology classes. I wonder how many of the students I went to school with are sociologists and psychologists now.
Click to expand...

My brother was a teacher in California. He use to teach auto shop and physics. Way before Obama, California began to phase out the industrial arts (auto/wood shop) type classes. They were replaced with artsy feel good classes.

I agree that many of today's kids don't want to do trades type work. That is an issue for the country. It is a sad state of affairs when some feel that an entry level job flipping burgers should provide a "living wage". There is nothing wrong working in the trades field.
 
A friend of mine who was going to trade school to be a plumber told me something his teacher said which made a whole lot of sense:

"You know, nowadays, a lot of people are looking to go into computer science. But you know what? You're in a better field, because no matter how advance our technology gets, people are always going to need someone to unclog their toilet."

IMO, trades are woefully unrepresented as viable options for people. Plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, landscapers, all these folks can make good money, doing good, interesting work. It's really nothing to look down on, either. One needs intelligence and skills to do these jobs.
 
mike2810 said:
My brother was a teacher in California. He use to teach auto shop and physics. Way before Obama, California began to phase out the industrial arts (auto/wood shop) type classes. They were replaced with artsy feel good classes.

I agree that many of today's kids don't want to do trades type work. That is an issue for the country. It is a sad state of affairs when some feel that an entry level job flipping burgers should provide a "living wage". There is nothing wrong working in the trades field.
Click to expand...
I think it's cultural shift due to a marketing campaign by the student loan industry. It's all 4 year college all the time. Despite all the calls and please for things like trade education it's not happening.
 
Lafayette said:
Post-secondary education free available from state-schools free-of-charge. If not, about 45% of our children will never ever obtain the instruction they need to pull themselves into good jobs at a decent pay.
Click to expand...
And what job are they going to get with state school especially when so many more also have it?

As someone who has hired a lot of people, help set the hiring guidelines and has a fair amount education:

Skip the post secondary and utilize that time/resources to help you kids self learn/utilize the internet, get them instruction on specific technical skills, get them to shadow people in as many jobs as possible and get them to work temporary/contract job if they can’t find full-time. They’ll be a lot better off…

Low-skill areas are only going to get worse and higher education is not the route to high skill jobs…
 
haymarket said:
Good post. We also must remember to include skilled trades in education as we badly need more plumbers, electricians, brick worker, painters and other areas.
Click to expand...
Since so many people seem to mention the trades. I'll like to point out there are heavy limits on that job market…one must keep in mind. Not to mention a huge toll on your body which doesn't let you have the same type of lifetime on your career as mental work or even service work. So high supply srinking wages down the road could make those a really bad shortterm investment.

The window is certianly open for the current generation, bad work is better than no work but there really isn't the growth room to accomadate a huge influx.And huge uncertianies as far of future options.

We should be encouraging young people to learn these skills and then can make lots of money doing it.
Click to expand...
Agreed…we need a system of training people for the real jobs people do. Univeristys struggle just to provide co-ops so I have little hope they're the furture of job training.
 
mike2810 said:
My brother was a teacher in California. He use to teach auto shop and physics. Way before Obama, California began to phase out the industrial arts (auto/wood shop) type classes. They were replaced with artsy feel good classes.

I agree that many of today's kids don't want to do trades type work. That is an issue for the country. It is a sad state of affairs when some feel that an entry level job flipping burgers should provide a "living wage". There is nothing wrong working in the trades field.
Click to expand...

I agree almost completely, but if we're going to address why the trades have fallen out of favor, let's discuss wages. My dad was a labor union butcher for many years. He made $19 an hour as a butcher, back in the early 80's. A butcher today would make the same, or probably less.

My dad owned his own home, 2 cars. But that would be impossible to do today on $19 an hour in California.
The country hasn't been honest with discussing what immigration/growth has done to wages, especially for the working class.
 
truthatallcost said:
I agree almost completely, but if we're going to address why the trades have fallen out of favor, let's discuss wages. My dad was a labor union butcher for many years. He made $19 an hour as a butcher, back in the early 80's. A butcher today would make the same, or probably less.

My dad owned his own home, 2 cars. But that would be impossible to do today on $19 an hour in California.
The country hasn't been honest with discussing what immigration/growth has done to wages, especially for the working class.
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As a proportion of average income food has fallen dramatically over the past decades. That leaves less for butchers' wages.
 
joG said:
As a proportion of average income food has fallen dramatically over the past decades.
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Ha. Millions of Americans now live off of Top Ramen and McDonald's too, because they can't afford good food. People are bypassing fresh meat and produce, because they can't afford it, and buying processed foods instead.


That leaves less for butchers' wages.
Click to expand...

I just looked up wages for butchers... unbelievable. An average butcher earns $13.34 an hour. Less than what my dad made as a butcher 30 years ago.

How did that happen? Well...

Meat processing across the Midwest largely done by immigrants

https://www.pri.org/stories/2013-05-15/meat-processing-across-midwest-largely-done-immigrants
 
haymarket said:
Good post. We also must remember to include skilled trades in education as we badly need more plumbers, electricians, brick worker, painters and other areas.

The other day I went through a list of people who can put up tile for a kitchen backsplash... (not just those big sections on mats that you slap on but smaller individual tiles in an intricate and tricky pattern) and talked to several on a list from the tile store and the soonest any of them could get to me was eight weeks away - and that was an optimistic estimate. And he gets $400 per day to do it and you pay for all the materials.

We should be encouraging young people to learn these skills and then can make lots of money doing it.
Click to expand...

I feel like a lot of modern countries undervalue trade jobs like mechanics, plumbers, painters, roofers etc.
In France for example, everyone needs their "BAC" (college) or else you are seen as some kind of drop-out good-for-nothing. Maybe there is a similar feeling in the US, haven't lived there long enough to tell you.

Here in Switzerland, I feel like we have a good way to encourage these trade jobs. Right after our "high school" (which finishes at 15 y/o) you have basically two options : 1) you go to college so you can go to a university afterwards or 2) you find an apprenticeship.

Apprenticeships here last 3-4 years & are an alternate between practice & theory. You work for the company that hires you 3-4 days a week and study in a state subsidized school with other people who do your job.

Could such a system be implemented in the US ?
 
Conaeolos said:
And what job are they going to get with state school especially when so many more also have it?

As someone who has hired a lot of people, help set the hiring guidelines and has a fair amount education:

Skip the post secondary and utilize that time/resources to help you kids self learn/utilize the internet, get them instruction on specific technical skills, get them to shadow people in as many jobs as possible and get them to work temporary/contract job if they can’t find full-time. They’ll be a lot better off…

Low-skill areas are only going to get worse and higher education is not the route to high skill jobs…
Click to expand...

The purpose of a post-secondary education is to allow a person to "find out" what they want to do. You know as well as anybody that at the age of 18 one typically has no idea.

So, all they're suppose to do is get on the Internet, which will tell them "where to go", how to find a good job - despite the fact that many barely know how to spell their names.

What utter nonsense ...
 
Cisero said:
I feel like a lot of modern countries undervalue trade jobs like mechanics, plumbers, painters, roofers etc.

Here in Switzerland, I feel like we have a good way to encourage these trade jobs. Right after our "high school" (which finishes at 15 y/o) you have basically two options : 1) you go to college so you can go to a university afterwards or 2) you find an apprenticeship.

Apprenticeships here last 3-4 years & are an alternate between practice & theory. You work for the company that hires you 3-4 days a week and study in a state subsidized school with other people who do your job.

Could such a system be implemented in the US ?
Click to expand...

You are very right to underscore the importance of apprenticeships. I think Switzerland probably got the idea from Germany, where 95% who undertake an apprenticeship learning program ultimately are hired by the company at which they apprentice.

We have apprenticeship programs in the US where they are called "school-to-work", and the program is functional. From here: Apprenticeship programs in the US - excerpt:
Apprenticeship programs in the United States are regulated by the Smith-Hughes Act (1917), The National Industrial Recovery Act (1933), and National Apprenticeship Act, also known as the "Fitzgerald Act."

The number of American apprentices has increased from 375,000 in 2014 to 500,000 in 2016, while the federal government intends to see 750,000 by 2019, particularly by expanding the apprenticeship model to include white-collar occupations such as information technology.
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In the US, however, school-to-work programs usually occur only in high school. Which means that mixing work and schooling at such a young age could have a deleterious affect upon learning. Still, it is better than becoming a "drop-out" from high-school - which in the US is a significant 4.7% of high-schoolers. (Information source here.)

Which of course feeds into our unemployment rate, at least partially. Anyway, these people are the ones also destined to live their lives below the Poverty Threshold, from which an apprenticeship program likely would have saved them.

Learning a trade or obtaining any advanced educational degree has become a primordial importance even in the US. The good-times are over as the world has come up to the US's standard in terms of economic diversity and potential - the result of which is fierce competition for jobs.

Let's not blame everything on the Chinese - they have the very same problem but their educational system is free, gratis and for nothing (unlike ours) ...
 
Lafayette said:
The purpose of a post-secondary education is to allow a person to "find out" what they want to do. You know as well as anybody that at the age of 18 one typically has no idea.
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I know very well they have no idea…and perhaps you can describe how going to post-secondary helps in that department? A very small percentage of grads even have an idea of the jobs available [in there major] let alone what they want to do or how to do what they want to do. So please expand. How does post-seconary lead to kids who know what they want to do?

So, all they're suppose to do is get on the Internet
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Well yes and no, the internet is a vast database of learning to do pretty much anything and more importantly for the young adults who get successful, probabaly the only way for them to get in contact with people who can help them get where they want to go.

Name the intrest I'll outline the process...

which will tell them "where to go"
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Well they have to forge that themselves, but the tools to get there most certianly.

how to find a good job
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Pretty much one of the best way to get a job or create one, yes.

despite the fact that many barely know how to spell their names.
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You know a great place to get help with that? And I talk as someone who struggled hard with dyslexia: the internet.

What utter nonsense …
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How many kids have you helped get through collage and nurture them to success? (it happen so not impossible)

I have a plenty who have seen wonders with my suggested methods.

So nonsense with a record of success....

edit:

Lafayette said:
Which of course feeds into our unemployment rate, at least partially. Anyway, these people are the ones also destined to live their lives below the Poverty Threshold, from which an apprenticeship program likely would have saved them.

Learning a trade or obtaining any advanced educational degree has become a primordial importance even in the US. The good-times are over as the world has come up to the US's standard in terms of economic diversity and potential - the result of which is fierce competition for jobs.

Let's not blame everything on the Chinese - they have the very same problem but their educational system is free, gratis and for nothing (unlike ours) ...
Click to expand...
Just wanted to add I couldn't agree more...just don't think your plan will help in the "fierce competition for jobs" considering the state and trends of things.
 
Last edited:
Cisero said:
Apprenticeships here last 3-4 years & are an alternate between practice & theory. You work for the company that hires you 3-4 days a week and study in a state subsidized school with other people who do your job.

Could such a system be implemented in the US ?
Click to expand...
Youth unemployment numbers look pretty solid in switzerland ~ whats the downsides according to the youth/your observations?
 
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