The 600B question ...

Lafayette · Jun 21, 2017

From the Economist: The $600B question - excerpt:

Donald Trump has talked big about his military build up

It is not going to happen

SPEAKING in the White House Rose Garden in May, Donald Trump described the $19.9bn increase in defence spending for 2017 (agreed upon seven months late after much wrangling) as “massive and badly needed”. It would soon be followed, he promised, by further boosts to the Pentagon’s funding. “We’re going to have the finest equipment of all types—whether it’s aeroplanes, or ships or equipment in general—that we’ve ever had in the history of our country,” he said. Mr Trump has promised to expand the navy from 275 ships to 350, the army from 476,000 active-duty soldiers to 540,000 and to give the air force hundreds of additional fighter jets.

As Jim Mattis, the defence secretary, and General Joseph Dunford, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, went in to fight for next year’s defence budget before a clutch of congressional committees, a different picture emerged. The president’s budget request for fiscal 2018, which begins in October, has been pitched at $603bn (with a base budget for the Pentagon of $575bn). That is $54bn above the caps mandated by the 2011 Budget Control Act (BCA), which started to bite in 2013, but only 3.3%, above Barack Obama’s defence plans.

The Republican leaders of the House and Senate Armed Services Committees, Mac Thornberry and John McCain agree, and also regard Mr Trump’s budget request as inadequate.

Enough is enough - dammit!!! The Defense Budget confiscated more than half (54%!) of the Discretionary Budget two years ago. See here.

If America got off its binging on "more deadly toys for our boys" and reduced the DoD-spending to 30% of total-budget, maybe we could send our kids (instead of to death) to a decent post-secondary degree state-school to "learn-a-living"?

As I sometimes tire of saying, more than 40% of today's high-schoolers will never obtain a post-secondary education - effectively consigning themselves to a very much below the median family-salary existence of around $53K annually (two workers) ...

joG · Jun 21, 2017

Lafayette said:
From the Economist: The $600B question - excerpt:

Enough is enough - dammit!!! The Defense Budget confiscated more than half (54%!) of the Discretionary Budget two years ago. See here.

If America got off its binging on "more deadly toys for our boys" and reduced the DoD-spending to 30% of total-budget, maybe we could send our kids (instead of to death) to a decent post-secondary degree state-school to "learn-a-living"?

As I sometimes tire of saying, more than 40% of today's high-schoolers will never obtain a post-secondary education - effectively consigning themselves to a very much below the median family-salary existence of around $53K annually (two workers) ...

I would have hoped that you would have approached this more rationally than with the normal populism. Like with your anti American socialist stuff this leaves out all the intellectually challenging bits. As you are an economist at least by selfpresentation, I would have hoped for at least a bit more insight in one of the basic econopolitical basics.

cpwill · Jun 21, 2017

Sequestration, while important as a marker for some kind of reduction in the growth in spending, did widespread damage to readiness.

Our defense costs a lot. Not least because we tend to provide pretty good pay and benefits to our servicemembers compared to, say, China, or Russia.

For those who want to actually cut defense expenditures where it is growing the fastest, okay: Everyone in favor of taking away healthcare benefits for military retirees, raise your hands.......

<alt>doxygen · Jun 21, 2017

The Bush Jr. admin. / congress increased military spending more than Reagan, they practically doubled it in fact. But 3 new wars were started during that period, Afghanistan, Iraq, and the endless GWOT, which continues although the phrase isn't used much anymore.

The military industrial complex employs many Americans, and being world cop isn't cheap. We have the best; we just don't use it wisely.

Lafayette · Jun 21, 2017

joG said:
I would have hoped that you would have approached this more rationally than with the normal populism. Like with your anti American socialist stuff this leaves out all the intellectually challenging bits. As you are an economist at least by selfpresentation, I would have hoped for at least a bit more insight in one of the basic econopolitical basics.

At least I am nurturing the debate.

All you are doing is pissing on it ...

Lafayette · Jun 21, 2017

<alt>doxygen said:
The Bush Jr. admin. / congress increased military spending more than Reagan, they practically doubled it in fact. But 3 new wars were started during that period, Afghanistan, Iraq, and the endless GWOT, which continues although the phrase isn't used much anymore.

The military industrial complex employs many Americans, and being world cop isn't cheap. We have the best; we just don't use it wisely.

Nobody, but nobody, asked anybody to be "world cop".

The Military-Industrial-Complex decided it was a cash-cow and multiple Replicant governments have furnished that cow with plenty of feed. Even a war or two to assure its high profit-levels from a DoD-budget that is outta sight.

We have become - as a result of the Great Recession - a two-class country. Those families who can afford to send their kids into a post-secondary degree programs (and who thus get the well-paying jobs); and many of those below the Average Wage wondering if they can maintain their mortgage payments whilst others even further down wonder from where their next meal is coming. (Ooops, forgot - yeah, from the food-stamps. What a helluva indecent way to live!)

I repeat: 45 million Americans live below the poverty threshold - that's close to 14% of the population.

Nice recipe for a revolution, methinks ...

Lafayette · Jun 21, 2017

cpwill said:
Everyone in favor of taking away healthcare benefits for military retirees, raise your hands.......

Not me. But I raise my hand for extending those benefits to the rest of the population. Why should the rest of us suffer (from our own self-inflicted obesity)?

Yesserie ... !

cpwill · Jun 21, 2017

Lafayette said:
Not me. But I raise my hand for extending those benefits to the rest of the population. Why should the rest of us suffer (from our own self-inflicted obesity)?

Because you are responsible for your own decisions, and, even forgetting the issue of human freedom, letting people take the consequences of their decisions is the best way to get them to make the right ones.

Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

Baralis · Jun 21, 2017

I think a very important aspect of reducing our military spending is to cut the wastefulness. Our military is extremely mismanaged and wasteful but as long as we just keep raising their budget and never ask for anything better we shall get nothing better.

<alt>doxygen · Jun 21, 2017

Baralis said:
I think a very important aspect of reducing our military spending is to cut the wastefulness. Our military is extremely mismanaged and wasteful but as long as we just keep raising their budget and never ask for anything better we shall get nothing better.

Well, the MIC is good a spreading pork around. Look at how many states get money from the F-35 program, which has probably cost twice what it should have, and continues to bleed us.

There are entire counties that make most of their income from the presence of 1 military base and related facilities.

I used to work in metro DC. Try to count the number of buildings (campuses, actually) owned by LM, NG, RTN, SAIC, etc. there. My dad considered the area recession proof for that reason.

jdog21 · Jun 21, 2017

Lafayette said:
From the Economist: The $600B question - excerpt:

Enough is enough - dammit!!! The Defense Budget confiscated more than half (54%!) of the Discretionary Budget two years ago. See here.

If America got off its binging on "more deadly toys for our boys" and reduced the DoD-spending to 30% of total-budget, maybe we could send our kids (instead of to death) to a decent post-secondary degree state-school to "learn-a-living"?

As I sometimes tire of saying, more than 40% of today's high-schoolers will never obtain a post-secondary education - effectively consigning themselves to a very much below the median family-salary existence of around $53K annually (two workers) ...

With the higher budget it increase the security of our people who our in our military. Also it creates good paying jobs for the middle class, and an opportunity for lower classes to move into the middle class. Its a big job creator, which is a good thing cuz so many people are not finding jobs that pay double the minimum wage these days.

<alt>doxygen · Jun 21, 2017

jdog21 said:
With the higher budget it increase the security of our people who our in our military. Also it creates good paying jobs for the middle class, and an opportunity for lower classes to move into the middle class. Its a big job creator, which is a good thing cuz so many people are not finding jobs that pay double the minimum wage these days.

Translation: Gubment GOOD! Make jobs! Tax money funded, but...gubment GOOD!

Open your wallet. Now.

jdog21 · Jun 21, 2017

<alt>doxygen said:
Translation: Gubment GOOD! Make jobs! Tax money funded, but...gubment GOOD!

Open your wallet. Now.

Actually under George W Bush in 2003 defense budget spending went up and federal taxes for 90% of americans (people under $112,000) went down.

Lafayette · Jun 22, 2017

jdog21 said:
With the higher budget it increase the security of our people who our in our military. Also it creates good paying jobs for the middle class, and an opportunity for lower classes to move into the middle class. Its a big job creator, which is a good thing cuz so many people are not finding jobs that pay double the minimum wage these days.

BS!

In a real and fair democracy there is NO PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT of one class of citizen over another.

We are all citizens and deserve the same treatment in terms of economic policy ... !

Lafayette · Jun 22, 2017

cpwill said:
Because you are responsible for your own decisions, and, even forgetting the issue of human freedom, letting people take the consequences of their decisions is the best way to get them to make the right ones.

Decisions are made in a Real Democracy at the ballot-box.

This last time around an idiot lost the popular-vote then was unfairly elected in the EC - which an outdated artifact from the beginning of the 19th century when most Americans could neither read nor write. Never in the history of the nation has an election been so dysfunctional - Hillary won the popular-vote by the highest margin (2%) ever!

Which demonstrates presently a Dysfunctional Democracy unable to elect validly its Executive leadership.

PS: And we call African Countries backwards? Look in the mirror ... !

RetiredUSN · Jun 22, 2017

Lafayette said:
From the Economist: The $600B question - excerpt:

Enough is enough - dammit!!! The Defense Budget confiscated more than half (54%!) of the Discretionary Budget two years ago. See here.

If America got off its binging on "more deadly toys for our boys" and reduced the DoD-spending to 30% of total-budget, maybe we could send our kids (instead of to death) to a decent post-secondary degree state-school to "learn-a-living"?

As I sometimes tire of saying, more than 40% of today's high-schoolers will never obtain a post-secondary education - effectively consigning themselves to a very much below the median family-salary existence of around $53K annually (two workers) ...

In 2014, 45% of college grads ended up working in jobs that do not require college degrees, and they also had a jobless rate of 12.4%....... which was higher than the national unemployment rate.

Skilled trades fared much better, and were suffering a 13% shortage in 2014. A 2-3 year journeyman can be making 40K-60K easily in many trades.

Are college kids afraid to get dirty?

Hawkeye10 · Jun 22, 2017

RetiredUSN said:
In 2014, 45% of college grads ended up working in jobs that do not require college degrees, and they also had a jobless rate of 12.4%....... which was higher than the national unemployment rate.

Skilled trades fared much better, and were suffering a 13% shortage in 2014. A 2-3 year journeyman can be making 40K-60K easily in many trades.

Are college kids afraid to get dirty?

Plus a lot of those jobs that require a degree only do so for convenience, it's a human sorting mechanism.......nothing learned at university will be used on the job.

I want to massively shrink University slots, make them harder to get, make them more valuable, but few agree with me.

holbritter · Jun 22, 2017

Lafayette said:
Decisions are made in a Real Democracy at the ballot-box.

This last time around an idiot lost the popular-vote then was unfairly elected in the EC - which an outdated artifact from the beginning of the 19th century when most Americans could neither read nor write. Never in the history of the nation has an election been so dysfunctional - Hillary won the popular-vote by the highest margin (2%) ever!

Which demonstrates presently a Dysfunctional Democracy unable to elect validly its Executive leadership.

PS: And we call African Countries backwards? Look in the mirror ... !

Are you American? Just curious.

RetiredUSN · Jun 22, 2017

Hawkeye10 said:
Plus a lot of those jobs that require a degree only do so for convenience, it's a human sorting mechanism.......nothing learned at university will be used on the job.

I want to massively shrink University slots, make them harder to get, make them more valuable, but few agree with me.

I don't want to see them harder to get.

I would like to see more kids making the right choices in regards to obtaining a degree that they can make a actual living with.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/susana...grees-for-getting-hired-in-2016/#4bbb80053beb

Harbo · Jun 22, 2017

Lafayette said:
This last time around an idiot lost the popular-vote then was unfairly elected in the EC - which an outdated artifact from the beginning of the 19th century when most Americans could neither read nor write. Never in the history of the nation has an election been so dysfunctional - Hillary won the popular-vote by the highest margin (2%) ever!

What about the election of 1876?

Lafayette · Jun 22, 2017

WHERE'S THE UNDERLYING "ELECTORAL FAIRNESS"

Harbo said:
What about the election of 1876?

I wasn't around them. I am now, so I have a right to an opinion about it.

If you want to go look for yours in the history books, that's your business. Don't expect anybody to be terribly impressed. Laws made as long as 200 years ago have a relevance that is two centuries old. Democracy is a "living thing" that adds and should (but doesn't) subtract laws in order to be fair and equitable according to changing circumstances.

And the political perversity of the Electoral College is well known for its inequality of vote. Hillary won the popular-vote by a comparatively heavy margin of 2%. And yet she lost the election! Why?

Here's why - and it is called the State Residents per Electoral College Vote:

state-residents-per-electoral-college-vote-e1478268802265.jpg

Now you tell me where the "electoral fairness" is in that vote. Cuz there aint none! The electoral college is a concoction to give smaller states more "electoral voice". In fact, it should be declared illegal because it warps the popular-vote.

PS: Like gerrymandering on the state level, the Electoral College on the national level is a voting bamboozle. You "think" you live in a functionally honest democracy. The fact is, however, that you do not and never have!

Lafayette · Jun 22, 2017

holbritter said:
Are you American? Just curious.

That's a good question!

The answer is that I am one of the 8 million (non-military) Americans who live abroad and look at the world from a different POV.

By the way, we have no right to vote for our "own" representation - which is a denial of democratic rights ...

Lafayette · Jun 22, 2017

RetiredUSN said:
In 2014, 45% of college grads ended up working in jobs that do not require college degrees, and they also had a jobless rate of 12.4%....... which was higher than the national unemployment rate.

Skilled trades fared much better, and were suffering a 13% shortage in 2014. A 2-3 year journeyman can be making 40K-60K easily in many trades.

Are college kids afraid to get dirty?

Why get dirty if you don't need to do so?

Trade workers (both unionized and non-unionized) constitute only 15% of the American workforce. See Bureau of Labor Statistics here for "Goods-producing (excluding agriculture):
*Mining
*Construction
*Manufacturing"

Services Industries provides three-quarters (76%) of all jobs. Which is why I never tire of promoting the notion that it is preferable generally that a people be highly educated (free, gratis and for nothing), and particularly in the Service Industries that require more Brain than Brawn.

But why?

Because the investment is worthwhile by a modern government to subsidize the cost of educating Tertiary-Level graduates since they will produce higher levels of Tax Revenues that offset the costs. Which is not something you can say about the DoD that "nobody" purchases in a market-economy ...

Harbo · Jun 22, 2017

Lafayette said:
WHERE'S THE UNDERLYING "ELECTORAL FAIRNESS"

I wasn't around them. I am now, so I have a right to an opinion about it.

If you want to go look for yours in the history books, that's your business. Don't expect anybody to be terribly impressed. Laws made as long as 200 years ago have a relevance that is two centuries old. Democracy is a "living thing" that adds and should (but doesn't) subtract laws in order to be fair and equitable according to changing circumstances.

And the political perversity of the Electoral College is well known for its inequality of vote. Hillary won the popular-vote by a comparatively heavy margin of 2%. And yet she lost the election! Why?

Here's why - and it is called the State Residents per Electoral College Vote:

Now you tell me where the "electoral fairness" is in that vote. Cuz there aint none! The electoral college is a concoction to give smaller states more "electoral voice". In fact, it should be declared illegal because it warps the popular-vote.

PS: Like gerrymandering on the state level, the Electoral College on the national level is a voting bamboozle. You "think" you live in a functionally honest democracy. The fact is, however, that you do not and never have!

Firstly, you claimed "Never in the history of the nation has an election been so dysfunctional". That is an objectively false statement. 1876 was more dysfunctional by your own criteria, because the losing candidate actually got over 50% of the proportional vote and won the popular vote in some states he "lost" (he was declared to have won 3% more of the popular vote than his opponent). Secondly, I never claimed the election of 2016 was fair, so please don't put up a strawman or otherwise put words in my mouth. I am merely rejecting what is an historically false statement.

RetiredUSN · Jun 22, 2017

Lafayette said:
Why get dirty if you don't need to do so?

Trade workers (both unionized and non-unionized) constitute only 15% of the American workforce. See Bureau of Labor Statistics here for "Goods-producing (excluding agriculture):
*Mining
*Construction
*Manufacturing"

Services Industries provides three-quarters (76%) of all jobs. Which is why I never tire of promoting the notion that it is preferable generally that a people be highly educated (free, gratis and for nothing), and particularly in the Service Industries that require more Brain than Brawn.

But why?

Because the investment is worthwhile by a modern government to subsidize the cost of educating Tertiary-Level graduates since they will produce higher levels of Tax Revenues that offset the costs. Which is not something you can say about the DoD that "nobody" purchases in a market-economy ...

Those statistics are not including home repair services which include many different trades. Even still.....18.5% is a huge chunk of the work force.

The 600B question ...

Lafayette

joG

cpwill

<alt>doxygen

"I want MY WALL!"

Lafayette

Lafayette

Lafayette

cpwill

Baralis

<alt>doxygen

"I want MY WALL!"

jdog21

<alt>doxygen

"I want MY WALL!"

jdog21

Lafayette

Lafayette

RetiredUSN

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man

holbritter

RetiredUSN

Harbo

Member

Lafayette

Lafayette

Lafayette

Harbo

Member

RetiredUSN