• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

First GDP month entirely under Trump...falling hard

James972 said:
???? He is doing what he promised: wall, repeal, tax cuts , SCOTUS, Korea, Syria, and its only been 100 days.
Click to expand...

When is he doing those things? It certainly wasn't within that 100 days you speak of.
 
ocean515 said:
Well, it seems you've explained why your resume contains a number of "former" positions you've held.

No company can plan for everything. No company should.

However, a sound business plan is not a "comfort tool". That is an astonishing claim. A company that does not plan is doomed, period. A competent Executive would know this.

Obviously, there is nothing more to be gained here, so I'll leave you to your bizarre claims.
Click to expand...

I've made several business plans over the years for my own businesses. Never ever seemed to workout the way I projected, and without exception I ended up having to deviate from the plan significantly. Continuing to head in the direction of a plan that isn't working out is a prescription for doom, and it's utterly silly to ignore the unplanned opportunities that arise along the journey.
 
imagep said:
I've made several business plans over the years for my own businesses. Never ever seemed to workout the way I projected, and without exception I ended up having to deviate from the plan significantly. Continuing to head in the direction of a plan that isn't working out is a prescription for doom, and it's utterly silly to ignore the unplanned opportunities that arise along the journey.
Click to expand...

Where, in anything I have written, did I imply, or even suggest, a business plan must be adhered to without deviation?

It seems to me you're clutching at straws to support whatever position it is you're trying to hang on to.

Let me cite an example of planning, based on potential for future events.

Here in California, the State Legislature is famous for adopting regulations that have profound economic impacts on business. One of them is something referred to as Title 24. Title 24 outlines a series of energy standards for equipment that must be applied to all new, and some existing facilities, both residential and commercial.

As these new regulations were discussed and formulated, they would have a significant impact on the products I manufacture. While not law initially, meeting these new standards would require significant investment in design and manufacturing. That required planning, and capital expenditure projections covering multiple years. The impact would be felt in operations, procurement, and manufacturing. Of course, par for the course, the State Legislature adopted Title 24, and made it into law.

Where would my company be if I had waited to do the planning until this law came into effect?

Based on what you have written, that planning wouldn't be part of your effort.

I find it difficult to believe any business would operate with such short sighted executives in control.
 
imagep said:
When is he doing those things? It certainly wasn't within that 100 days you speak of.
Click to expand...

all in progress it seems!! Be patient!!
 
James972 said:
???? He is doing what he promised: wall, repeal, tax cuts , SCOTUS, Korea, Syria, and its only been 100 days.
Click to expand...

What are you? The most gullible person on the planet?

Doing? Doing means nothing.

Done means everything.

Any idiot can say they are 'doing' something...doing it is all that matters.

Okay...I am inventing cold fusion? How much is that worth? Zip.


And let's look at what Trump has done:

- Obamacare repeal - FAILURE (big time)
- Tax reform - FAILURE
- Wall - succeed (so far)
- SCOTUS - succeed (though Congress had to go nuclear to get it passed)
- Korea - Failure...he has done NOTHING with Korea except stomp his fat feet and wave his little hands around. Plus, he is risking a war (possibly nuclear) for a REALLY dumb reason. ANd frankly, the only reason I think he is doing it is to distract people from the lousy job he has done so far/the Russian FBI investigation
- Syria - MASSIVE FAILURE (he swore up and down that he would stay out of Syria with regard to regime change)
- Jobs - failure (last month the establishment survey went up only 98,000)
- Get America growing - FAILURE (GDPNow has GDP growth in his first quarter at a pathetic 0.5%)


And now let's look at what he has flip flopped on since he took office (i.e. how he lied on the campaign trail):

Yellen must go - flip flopped 100%
Fed must be reformed - flip flopped 100%
America First (stay out of other countries business) - flip flopped
U-3 is a joke - flip flopped
He said he would be too busy to golf - flip flopped
And there are MANY more.

Not to mention he is under investigation from the FBI over his/his campaign's Russian ties.


The guy has been an absolutely, pathetic loser in his first 100 days.

He has done something I did not think possible - he has made me long for either GWB or Obama to be back in power (and I thought they both sucked as POTUS's).

And save your reply - I will not read it. You economic posts are - no offense - incredibly bizarre, imo. Your apparent outright hatred of all things liberal is flat out scary and extremely weird to me. The only reason I saw your post was because imagep answered you.

Good day.


Once again, I have ZERO loyalty to any political party or movement.
 
Last edited:
ocean515 said:
Where, in anything I have written, did I imply, or even suggest, a business plan must be adhered to without deviation?
Click to expand...



On occasion when trying to acquire additional capital for expansion, I've put together makeshift business plans, full of projections, but that's all it is. Its a projection of what MAY happen in the future. The business plan doesn't make those things happen, they happen or not happen regardless of the plan.

Other than trying to make other people believe that the business is organized and has the future all planned out, what is the functional purpose of a business plan?
 
James972 said:
so do you stand for anything at all????
Click to expand...

Standing for a principle, and pledging allegiance to a club, are two different things. Particularly when the club constantly changes positions.

I have a lot of respect for people who stand for a principle, not so much for those who simply cheer on a club or team, even when that club/team is wrong.

I'm a huge Carolina Panthers fan. If that team started cheating on a regular bases, or had piss poor policies, I would drop them like a rock. People with no ethics/values/morals would keep cheering them on.
 
imagep said:
Standing for a principle, and pledging allegiance to a club, are two different things. Particularly when the club constantly changes positions.
Click to expand...

Republicans have stood for freedom since Jefferson and Madison founded the Party in 1793. At their worst they are better than naturally treasonous Democrats. Do you understand?
 
James972 said:
Republicans have stood for freedom since Jefferson and Madison founded the Party in 1793. At their worst they are better than naturally treasonous Democrats. Do you understand?
Click to expand...

So you are actually saying that Democrats are actually born treasonous?

:roll:

Wow...you are apparently just SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO far gone.

If there is a God, please do not let this guy procreate.
 
imagep said:
On occasion when trying to acquire additional capital for expansion, I've put together makeshift business plans, full of projections, but that's all it is. Its a projection of what MAY happen in the future. The business plan doesn't make those things happen, they happen or not happen regardless of the plan.

Other than trying to make other people believe that the business is organized and has the future all planned out, what is the functional purpose of a business plan?
Click to expand...

That you need to ask such a question proves to me why you are an EX VP of operations. A business couldn't get financing, if it were seeking it, without a sound and rational business plan. A good business plan is a guide, a road map to help measure progress, and to determine if changes in course are required. I don't know of a single successful business that does not utilize both short term, and long term business plans to guide it's efforts.

If a companies objectives are to see growth every year, how does it plan for increases in production and other activity that would be required to support it? How much spending on hardware and manpower will be required to support a 25% increase in revenue over a 3 year span? A business plan helps detail what would be needed.

I don't want to jump to any conclusions here, but you're making it difficult to ignore the one's that are coming to mind...
 
ocean515 said:
That you need to ask such a question proves to me why you are an EX VP of operations. A business couldn't get financing, if it were seeking it, without a sound and rational business plan. A good business plan is a guide, a road map to help measure progress, and to determine if changes in course are required. I don't know of a single successful business that does not utilize both short term, and long term business plans to guide it's efforts.

If a companies objectives are to see growth every year, how does it plan for increases in production and other activity that would be required to support it? How much spending on hardware and manpower will be required to support a 25% increase in revenue over a 3 year span? A business plan helps detail what would be needed.

I don't want to jump to any conclusions here, but you're making it difficult to ignore the one's that are coming to mind...
Click to expand...

I think you may have me confused with someone else. I've never been a vp of operations.

Anyhow, I realize that to get financing/investors a business plan may be required. But as the owner of a company, I don't see a lot of value in the plan for internal use. We know where we would like to go, and we deal with things as they happen (preferably some months before we get to each point which may make a difference). Just having a plan that says we will increase volume by 25% doesn't make it happen, and even having a specific plan to get to that goal doesn't mean it's going to happen. Some of our best business opportunities have come out of nowhere, and some of our worst business situations have also come out of nowhere (we once lost our three largest customers simultaneously, while being under construction with a new facilitity, there was no way we could have expected that).

As far as borrowing money for the purpose of business expansion from banks, it's been my experience that if I can prove that we already have the profitability to repay the loan, getting the loan is no issue at all. But if we are speculating that if we expand, that we will have enough added profitability to make the payments, the bank is going to take about 2 seconds to stamp our proposal "denied".

Even when we constructed a new building, I had to have financials that proved that regardless of the outcome of the building, that I could already afford to meet the loan obligation.
 
James972 said:
Republicans have stood for freedom since Jefferson and Madison founded the Party in 1793. At their worst they are better than naturally treasonous Democrats. Do you understand?
Click to expand...

Republicans flip flop on issues constantly. As do democrats.

You do realize that the republican party used to be the liberal party, and the democrat party was the conservatives party don't you? Heck, I'm not just talking about flip flopping over a period of years, Trump has flip flopped in the same paragraph. That doesn't disturb you?
 
imagep said:
Republicans flip flop on issues constantly. As do democrats.

You do realize that the republican party used to be the liberal party, and the democrat party was the conservatives party don't you? Heck, I'm not just talking about flip flopping over a period of years, Trump has flip flopped in the same paragraph. That doesn't disturb you?
Click to expand...

Conservatives often love Trump for Wall, repeal, tax and regulation cuts, Scotus, strong military. Its more than we ever imagined.
 
imagep said:
I think you may have me confused with someone else. I've never been a vp of operations.

Anyhow, I realize that to get financing/investors a business plan may be required. But as the owner of a company, I don't see a lot of value in the plan for internal use. We know where we would like to go, and we deal with things as they happen (preferably some months before we get to each point which may make a difference). Just having a plan that says we will increase volume by 25% doesn't make it happen, and even having a specific plan to get to that goal doesn't mean it's going to happen. Some of our best business opportunities have come out of nowhere, and some of our worst business situations have also come out of nowhere (we once lost our three largest customers simultaneously, while being under construction with a new facilitity, there was no way we could have expected that).

As far as borrowing money for the purpose of business expansion from banks, it's been my experience that if I can prove that we already have the profitability to repay the loan, getting the loan is no issue at all. But if we are speculating that if we expand, that we will have enough added profitability to make the payments, the bank is going to take about 2 seconds to stamp our proposal "denied".

Even when we constructed a new building, I had to have financials that proved that regardless of the outcome of the building, that I could already afford to meet the loan obligation.
Click to expand...

You are correct, with regards to previous positions, I did have you confused with another poster. My apologies. Hard to follow who's written what when posts go over many days.

I guess at the end of the day, it comes down to management philosophy as to how to plan for the future. It has never been my experience to let the whims of serendipity dictate the direction of my company. That certainly was the way I operated in the early years, as I was clawing for any business that I could find.

Case in point, when I started my packaging manufacturing business, I targeted the food industry. My first major client/break/savior was a toilet tank sanitizer product the company used with my product.

As my company grew into millions, then tens of millions, then hundreds of millions in sales, a sound business plan was critical to managing growth and understanding where and when things could be done. It kept us from making mistakes, or taking on business that didn't follow the general direction we had set as an objective.

Don't get me wrong, I think a company that does not waiver from a set course is possibly doomed over the long run. However, it's easy to loose sight of the objective without a resource to refer back to. A business plan is that resource.
 
ocean515 said:
You are correct, with regards to previous positions, I did have you confused with another poster. My apologies. Hard to follow who's written what when posts go over many days.

I guess at the end of the day, it comes down to management philosophy as to how to plan for the future. It has never been my experience to let the whims of serendipity dictate the direction of my company. That certainly was the way I operated in the early years, as I was clawing for any business that I could find.

Case in point, when I started my packaging manufacturing business, I targeted the food industry. My first major client/break/savior was a toilet tank sanitizer product the company used with my product.

As my company grew into millions, then tens of millions, then hundreds of millions in sales, a sound business plan was critical to managing growth and understanding where and when things could be done. It kept us from making mistakes, or taking on business that didn't follow the general direction we had set as an objective.

Don't get me wrong, I think a company that does not waiver from a set course is possibly doomed over the long run. However, it's easy to loose sight of the objective without a resource to refer back to. A business plan is that resource.
Click to expand...

I suppose my business is so tiny that I can pretty much keep track of our intended direction in my head. It's not like I have a team of VPs who need to keep referring to a document to stay on track.

We are also more of a job shop than a factory, so we will produce pretty much whatever is within our capability, as long as it is legal and the customer is willing to pay a price which allows us a profit.
 
imagep said:
You do realize that the republican party used to be the liberal party,
Click to expand...

most importantly the two ideas in history handed down to us from Plato and Aristotle: freedom versus govt are the only important ideas shaping human history. You need to grasp that and then learn why to support freedom. Do you understand?
 
James972 said:
most importantly the two ideas in history handed down to us from Plato and Aristotle: freedom versus govt are the only important ideas shaping human history. You need to grasp that and then learn why to support freedom. Do you understand?
Click to expand...

Generally, I don't see reasonable government as preventing my freedom. I see it as augmenting my freedom, allowing me to be able to do things that I couldn't do without government. Libertarianism is great in theory, but it rarely works in real life. There is a place for government.

That said, I do desire the minimum amount of government needed to maximize the amount of discomfort that a government-less society would have. I seek the Momma bear government, not one that is too small (Baby Bear) or one that is too big (Daddy Bear). for the most part, I think we are pretty darned close to the Momma Bear size government in the US.
 
imagep said:
I suppose my business is so tiny that I can pretty much keep track of our intended direction in my head. It's not like I have a team of VPs who need to keep referring to a document to stay on track.

We are also more of a job shop than a factory, so we will produce pretty much whatever is within our capability, as long as it is legal and the customer is willing to pay a price which allows us a profit.
Click to expand...

I can't deny scope would play a role in the importance of adopting an ongoing business plan. Again, no plan should be a carved in stone document that must never be veered from. That would be foolish.

What I found for my business is that it helped as a point of reference to make sure we remained on track. I learned the hard way over the first 10 years or so what happens when that track is ignored.
 
imagep said:
, I think we are pretty darned close to the Momma Bear size government in the US.
Click to expand...

in other words you don't think but rather accept the status quo. In 50 years when govt is double the size again you will say the same thing as you would have 50 years ago! What a coincidence that its just the right size now!!
 
imagep said:
That said, I do desire the minimum amount of government needed .
Click to expand...

so $32,000/year for every man, women and child is just about perfect by your intellectual standards??
 
James972 said:
so $32,000/year for every man, women and child is just about perfect by your intellectual standards??
Click to expand...

No amount in particular, just whatever it takes. If that's the amount of government we have now, then that's the amount, although I don't think that a dollar figure is the best way to look at it, it also matters how those dollars are spent (wouldn't you agree?).

That particular figure looks a little exagerated to me, doing some napkin math, that would work out to a budget of over ten trillion dollars, I think the current federal budget is around 4 trillion, but maybe you are including state and local government spending also.

Even assuming that your figure is correct, it's not unrealistic, because the mean average amount of production per worker in the US is well over $100k (actual value of our work, GDP/workers, not the median job income which is quite a bit lower).

I know that I couldn't raise my own private military for $32k. Nor could I have my own private police force for that amount. I probably couldn't complete even a mile of private road for that much money. By purchasing goods in the collective, which is what government does, we get quite a bargain when broken down in cost per individual.
 
James972 said:
in other words you don't think but rather accept the status quo. In 50 years when govt is double the size again you will say the same thing as you would have 50 years ago! What a coincidence that its just the right size now!!
Click to expand...

No, not at all. There are tons of things that I would do differently, but no government is ever going to be ideal for any particular thinking individual. I think it's pretty close to the best we can get, considering that we have all sorts of political pressures pushing our elected leaders in all kinds of directions.

If it were up to me, I would redirect all means tested benefit money to infrastructure and Universal Health Insurance spending, along with free daycare for all working parents regardless of income. I would have free lunch for all school children and free after school programs, regardless of family income. I would have a much more progressive income tax structure and lower net overall taxation. I would also slash military spending, it's not our obligation to be the policeman of the world.

But since I am pragmatic, I'm up for reasonable compromises. Like instead of the highly progressive income tax structure which I mentioned as my ideal, I'd be willing to settle with a flat tax, as long as it is all inclusive of SS and medicare taxes, and with a good size per worker exempt amount.

Instead of a universal health insurance plan, I'd be willing to try the libertarian approach to healthcare, and eliminate most all government involvement with healthcare, including the total repeal of Obummercare, including the repeal of special tax incentives for companies to cover their employees with insurance, etc. Basically, most any healthcare system would be better than what we have had for the past good many decades.

I get the feeling that you are never willing to compromise.
 
imagep said:
No, not at all. .
Click to expand...
?????you just said govt was now coincidentally, the perfect size for you!!! Now you say, not at all????

Plato was for huge govt; Aristotle Jefferson and modern Republicans are for tiny govt. You should where you stand at some point.
 
James972 said:
?????you just said govt was now coincidentally, the perfect size for you!!! Now you say, not at all????/QUOTE]

That's not what I said. What I said was "I think we are pretty darned close to the Momma Bear size government in the US."

There is no such thing as "perfect", you will never see me make the claim that anything is perfect.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom