Free traders are patriots:

fmw · Mar 12, 2017

James972 said:
I'm afraid you missed the point. If American business is protected from international competition it soon will be unable to compete internationally. Now do you understand?

I reject the premise. Sorry.

I'm Supposn · Mar 12, 2017

James972 said:
I'm afraid you missed the point. If American business is protected from international competition it soon will be unable to compete internationally. Now do you understand?

James972, Regardless of how many or how few people are directly required to produce a product, the producing enterprises require some service enterprises or they directly employ labor to maintain and repair their production facilities, (which in turn have somewhat similar needs). Producers generally require parts and/or components and/or materials, which are often sourced from within the nation of the final product's producer.
There's a symbiotic relationship between production and technical knowledge. As we produce we gain experience and insight as to what we’re doing and how we’re doing it. We learn about the tools and materials we’re manipulating.

I recall a paragraph within one of Newt Gingrich’s books; he wrote of the cargo ships unloading high-value manufactured goods from Asia and returning with Their Shipping containers full of tightly packed rags, cardboard, and scrap metal. We’re continuing to transform ourselves to eventually be only the consumers of goods from the industrial nations. The producing nation earns the benefits of production.

Regardless of how many or how few people are directly required to produce a product, the producing enterprises require some service enterprises or they directly employ labor to maintain and repair their production facilities, (which in turn have somewhat similar needs). Producers generally require parts and/or components and/or materials, which are often sourced from within the nation of the final product's producer.
There's a symbiotic relationship between production and technical knowledge. As we produce we gain experience and insight as to what we’re doing and how we’re doing it. We learn about the tools and materials we’re manipulating.

I recall a paragraph within one of Newt Gingrich’s books; he wrote of the cargo ships unloading high-value manufactured goods from Asia and returning with Their Shipping containers full of tightly packed rags, cardboard, and scrap metal. We’re continuing to transform ourselves to eventually be only the consumers of goods from the industrial nations. The producing nation earns the benefits of production.

We're failing to defend USA production of goods and the higher paying jobs that accompany production. If USA firms don't produce goods, they don't hire engineers, they don't do research and development, the don't help support our infrastructure. You’re advocating a policy to transform the USA to be a second-class nation.
I doubt if you'll ever understand.

Respectfully, Supposn

James972 · Mar 12, 2017

I'm Supposn said:
We're failing to defend USA production of goods

I agree but I want USA to be best cheapest producers in world and you want to protect them so they become the worst in world. Your plan is suicide or treason.

I'm Supposn · Mar 12, 2017

James972 said:
I agree but I want USA to be best cheapest producers in world and you want to protect them so they become the worst in world. Your plan is suicide or treason.

James972, many of Asia’s industrial nations have been producing goods at lesser than USA’s costs per unit. Their median wages purchasing powers of their median wage is extremely less than ours. That’s the logical consequence of our seeking pure free trade.

I’m a traitor? Warren Buffett’s a traitor? Newt Gingrich’s a traitor? Only those that agree with you are loyal to our nation? James972, we try to have consideration for the sick; we wish you well.

Supposn

I'm Supposn · Mar 13, 2017

Excerpted from Wikipedia’s “Balance of Trade” article:

“Trade balances effects upon their nation's GDPs.
Exports directly contribute and imports directly reduce their nation's balance of trade (i.e. net exports). A trade surplus is positive net balance of trade, and a trade deficit is a negative net balance of trade. Due to balance of trade being explicitly added to the calculation of their nation's gross domestic product using the expenditure method of calculating gross domestic production (i.e. GDP), trade surpluses are contributions and trade deficits are "drags" upon their nation's GDP”. …
… Refer to:
“Expenditure Method Definition | Investopedia
BEA : Methodology Papers
http://www.britannica.com/topic/gross-domestic-product”.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
There are some that will argue USA’s chronic annual trade deficits of goods are not detrimental to our annual GDPs and numbers of jobs.

If a nation experienced an annual negative balance of global trade, (i.e. a trade deficit), that nation’s GDP was less than otherwise. A lesser GDP reflects upon, and is reflected upon by the nation’s lesser numbers of jobs during that same year. I’m unaware of any nation that enjoyed full employment while experiencing an annual trade deficit.

Proving trade deficits are beneficial or not detrimental to nations’ GDPs by statistical “proofs” are based upon specious reasoning.
[Within a nation’s markets, both their domestic and imported goods are sold. (We have no general rules applicable to aggregate types of goods and the proportional volumes between domestic and imports sold within each nation’s domestic markets during each of their markets differing conditions].

Generally, we expect that during a nation’s periods of improved GDP, the sales volumes of their domestic markets similarly improve; when their GDPs are stagnant or declining. we expect those sales volumes to similarly be stagnant or decline. Demonstrating trade deficits are reduced during times of lesser national GDPs only indicates that less imports are sold within the nation’s domestic markets during those periods.

Respectfully, Supposn

James972 · Mar 13, 2017

I'm Supposn said:
James972, many of Asia’s industrial nations have been producing goods at lesser than USA’s costs per unit.

Some have and many have not which is why the USA's share of world manufacturing output is not down much over the last 50 years. To get it up we need to reduce or eliminate our corporate taxes and regulations which are the highest in the world. Then we need to eliminate our budget deficits and let growing automation equalize our efficiency.

Obviously the last thing we need to do is protect and cripple our industry so we become a second or third rate country. Now do you understand?

I'm Supposn · Mar 14, 2017

James972 said:
Some have and many have not which is why the USA's share of world manufacturing output is not down much over the last 50 years. To get it up we need to reduce or eliminate our corporate taxes and regulations which are the highest in the world. Then we need to eliminate our budget deficits and let growing automation equalize our efficiency.

Obviously the last thing we need to do is protect and cripple our industry so we become a second or third rate country. Now do you understand?

James972, interesting that you or your information source chose the 1960’s to start describing the extents of manufacturing historic contributions to USA’s annual GDPs. By 1960 foreign manufactured goods, particularly Japanese electronic products had already crowded a good portion of USA goods out of USA’s domestic markets.

The 1956 Noble physics prize was awarded to John Bardeen and Walter Brattain William Shockley "for their researches on semiconductors and their discovery of the transistor effect".
They accomplished this while working for Bell Laboratories, the research and development arm of the Western Electric Company. This work began in the 1940’s.

When the age of solid state electronics had begun, USA’s manufacturing had already been significantly decimated and Japanese enterprises harvested a great portion of fruits due to Bell Lab’s achievement. Do you find many USA electronic devices sold in USA stores? It’s now much less likely that such discoveries, researches, and developments are much more likely to be the products of foreign rather than USA enterprises.

[I have a vivid memory of 1960 Mother’s Day. Then many, (if not most) Americans already had transistor radios and their retail prices had significantly fallen.
In 1960 I only found Japanese portable radios being sold in USA retail stores. USA manufacturing goods had already been replaced with Japanese imports. I recall paying at least $19.99 for a “Panasonic solid state electronics” radio. Referring to:
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=20.00&year1=1960&year2=2017
($20 in 9160) = ($164.08 in 2017).
After that Mother’s Day, I recall seeing a transistor radio with a recognizable USA brand name; it was a Westinghouse or G.E. radio and I would suppose even that was made in Japan.]

[Excerpted from this thread’s 3:23 PM, 12Mar2017 post:
There's a symbiotic relationship between production and technical knowledge. As we produce we gain experience and insight as to what we’re doing and how we’re doing it. We learn about the tools and materials we’re manipulating. ...
... We're failing to defend USA production of goods and the higher paying jobs that accompany production. If USA firms don't produce goods, they don't hire engineers, they don't do research and development, the don't help support our infrastructure. You’re advocating a policy to transform the USA to be a second-class nation.]

Obviously you don't understand.
Respectfully, Supposn

I'm Supposn · Mar 15, 2017

James972, no underdeveloped nation has ever transformed itself to be among the world’s economically leading nations while practicing free trade and the USA is well underway to demonstrating that our free trade policy is less than otherwise beneficial to our GDP, numbers of jobs and consequentially to our median wage.

Annual trade deficits’ have always been net detrimental to their nation’s GDPs and numbers of jobs.

Obviously, you don't understand.
Respectfully, Supposn

James972 · Mar 16, 2017

I'm Supposn said:
Annual trade deficits’ have always been net detrimental to their nation’s GDPs and numbers of jobs.

agreed so lets not make deficits worse by protecting and crippling or industries so their products will be even less desirable on the world market. 1+1=2

I'm Supposn · Mar 17, 2017

James972 said:
agreed so lets not make deficits worse by protecting and crippling or industries so their products will be even less desirable on the world market. 1+1=2

James972, can you be more specific; “make deficits worse by protecting and crippling or industries”?

You know of a USA industry that that was improved by no longer being unable to compete with lower priced imports? Garments, large or small electrical appliances, fruits, meats? The concept of Import Certificate is not applicable to service products or limited only to manufacturing industries.
You may choose any tangible product of any industry; but consider that Import Certificates affects upon prices of globally traded goods would exclude the approximate values of any mineral materials integral to the goods that the U.S. Congress would have determined to be on their list of specific scarce and/or precious minerals.

Aren’t low-wage nation’s imports’ almost or entirely eliminating a USA producing industry sufficiently detrimental occurrences?

The square root of 97,969 = 313
Respectfully, Supposn

James972 · Mar 17, 2017

I'm Supposn said:
James972, can you be more specific; “make deficits worse by protecting and crippling or industries”?

we have deficits because they don't want to buy our inferior products. You want to protect and cripple our industries so our products are even more inferior thus leading to always bigger deficits. Now do you understand?

I'm Supposn · Mar 18, 2017

James972 said:
we have deficits because they don't want to buy our inferior products. You want to protect and cripple our industries so our products are even more inferior thus leading to always bigger deficits. Now do you understand?

James972, both the quality and price of products are affected by the time and quality of labor that was devoted to the products. (Note; differing quality of labor command differing wage rates).

The price advantages of imports from lower-wage nations exist even among their mass-produced products; labors required to maintain the mass production tools, assembly lines and infrastructures for all intermediate steps leading up to the final finished products. The cost of building and maintaining the roof over the production line, delivering materials and components to producers, are all done at less costs in low wage nations.

When the foreign wages’ lesser purchasing power were of lesser consequences to USA’s commercial enterprises it was USA’s Bell laboratories (the research and development arm of USA’s Western Electric Corporation that could afford to risk investing for research and development. They created our age of solid state electronic devices and printed circuits, which led to integrated circuits. Corporation’s employees being awarded the Noble prize for physics is much more than a corporate promotional scheme.
Zenith, Motorola, Stromberg Carlson, these were the names that were familiar to me as USA producers of high quality electronic products for consumers. Their USA produced products are no longer sold in retail outlets because USA producers cannot compete with the lower priced imports.
Do you believe the USA could have gone to the moon if it that was dependent upon USA wage rates being globally competitive?

I again inquire, has the USA net benefitted due to our garments, electrical appliances and other goods being more likely to be designed, created, and mass produced by foreign nations? Does it please you that advances in the sciences and development of products are more likely accomplished by other than USA entities? Due to which of the many classifications of goods that we continue to use but no longer produce has there been of net benefit to our economy? Our economy is improved because any garment or electronic or electrical device you find in a USA store is an imported product?

We did not protect our electronic industry; USA enterprises now distribute the electronics of foreign produces, the research and development, the new products are primarily created in foreign nations.

James972, due to the policy you advocate, until other nation’s wage rates rise to our levels, and/or USA wages’ purchasing powers are reduced to their levels our comparative economic position will continue to decline and you continue not to understand this.

Respectfully, Supposn

I'm Supposn · Mar 18, 2017

James972 said:
we have deficits because they don't want to buy our inferior products. You want to protect and cripple our industries so our products are even more inferior thus leading to always bigger deficits. Now do you understand?

James 972, you never did specify if the USA adopted the Import Certificate policy, which specific USA industry would be “protected and crippled”? Precisely how would that occur? Please inform all of us.

Respectfully, Supposn

I'm Supposn · Mar 18, 2017

James972 said:
we have deficits because they don't want to buy our inferior products. You want to protect and cripple our industries so our products are even more inferior thus leading to always bigger deficits. Now do you understand?

James972, due to Import Certificate regulations and markets’ behaviors, any item of EFFECTIVE USA demand couldn’t and wouldn’t be prevented from being imported.

Additionally, within those Import Certificate regulations, the U.S. Congress determines what materials are on their scarce or precious minerals list. Those materials estimated volumes materials integral to globally traded goods passing through USA’s borders reduce the value assessments of such goods; (they’re not subject to those regulations).

Certainly, the policy does favor USA producers, but it does not discriminate among enterprises, industries, or foreign nations. What or who does it “protect, and what USA entity would it “cripple”?

Respectfully, Supposn

James972 · Mar 18, 2017

I'm Supposn said:
What or who does it “protect, and what USA entity would it “cripple”?

any industry that is protected from intercity or international competition grows weaker and weaker relative to those who are not protected from competition. What you propose will destroy America. It is treasonous and anti American.

I'm Supposn · Mar 18, 2017

James972 said:
any industry that is protected from intercity or international competition grows weaker and weaker relative to those who are not protected from competition. What you propose will destroy America. It is treasonous and anti American.

James972, huge portions of USA’s heavy and light industrial production, and (excluding agricultural products that are protected by federal commodity price supports or are by law denied entry into the USA without regard to prices), our surplus of agricultural and other natural products are being significantly reduced.

Which USA cities or states or regions economically benefitted due to those industries reduced units produced? which of them would be economically harmed due to USA adopting the Import Certificate proposal? Can you point and explain any real examples to support your contentions?
You know of a USA industry that has benefitted in the manner that you describe?

Your inability to present a logical argument is not as troubling as your accusations that we who disagree with you are (at very least, unpatriotic) and you often accuse us of being traitors. Treason is a crime. Your inability to logically debate an issue is regrettable, ignorance is regrettable, but it’s not a crime.

Supposn

James972 · Mar 18, 2017

I'm Supposn said:
James972, huge portions of USA’s heavy and light industrial production,...... are being significantly reduced.

agreed, they cant compete well so we don't want to protect them from competition and thus render them even less able to compete in the future. What we do want is to get lib govt off their backs so they can compete well.

I'm Supposn · Mar 18, 2017

James972 said:
agreed, they cant compete well so we don't want to protect them from competition and thus render them even less able to compete in the future. What we do want is to get lib govt off their backs so they can compete well.

James972, Warren Buffett’s concept of Import Certificates were described in his article published in 2003 within Fortune magazine.
Within his article, Buffett referred to a mythical nation of “Squanderville” that runs a continuous trade deficit. At the time of his article, USA’s annual trade deficits were running at 4% of our GDP. He concluded his article with these words:

“But I believe that in the trade deficit we also have a problem that is going to test all of our abilities to find a solution. A gently declining dollar will not provide the answer. True, it would reduce our trade deficit to a degree, but not by enough to halt the outflow of our country's net worth and the resulting growth in our investment-income deficit.

Perhaps there are other solutions that make more sense than mine. However, wishful thinking--and its usual companion, thumb sucking--is not among them. From what I now see, action to halt the rapid outflow of our national wealth is called for, and ICs seem the least painful and most certain way to get the job done. Just keep remembering that this is not a small problem: For example, at the rate at which the rest of the world is now making net investments in the U.S., it could annually buy and sock away nearly 4% of our publicly traded stocks.

In evaluating business options at Berkshire, my partner, Charles Munger, suggests that we pay close attention to his jocular wish: "All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I'll never go there." Framers of our trade policy should heed this caution--and steer clear of Squanderville”.

I'm Supposn · Mar 19, 2017

U.S. dollars’ global markets’ exchange rates indicate extents confidence in our currency. That confidence is less than it was, but in comparison to other nations’ currencies it’s still high.

Governments, investors, and commercial parties all generally determined the dollar’s exchange rate by considering USA’s chronic annual trade deficits, their proportions to our annual GDPs, and the stability of our government. The reputation of the U.S. dollar reflects upon the purchasing powers of the U.S. dollar both within AND beyond our borders. They determined the purchasing powers of U.S. dollars spent or received.

Contentions of USA chronic trade annual deficits and their proportions to our annual GDPs are inconsequential or some fools express it to be a “good deal’ for the USA are nonsensical. Annual trade deficits have ALWAYS been and will continue to be net detrimental to their nations’ economies.

Respectfully Supposn

James972 · Mar 19, 2017

I'm Supposn said:
U.S. dollars’ global markets’ exchange rates indicate extents confidence in our currency. That confidence is less than it was, but in comparison to other nations’ currencies it’s still high.

Governments, investors, and commercial parties all generally determined the dollar’s exchange rate by considering USA’s chronic annual trade deficits, their proportions to our annual GDPs, and the stability of our government. The reputation of the U.S. dollar reflects upon the purchasing powers of the U.S. dollar both within AND beyond our borders. They determined the purchasing powers of U.S. dollars spent or received.

Contentions of USA chronic trade annual deficits and their proportions to our annual GDPs are inconsequential or some fools express it to be a “good deal’ for the USA are nonsensical. Annual trade deficits have ALWAYS been and will continue to be net detrimental to their nations’ economies.

Respectfully Supposn

notice as a typical liberal you lacked you IQ to respond to my post so tried to change subject??

American corporations cant compete well so the last thing we don't want to protect them from competition and thus render them even less able to compete in the future. What we do want is to get lib govt off their backs so they can compete well. Now do you understand what a child should be able to understand?

I'm Supposn · Mar 24, 2017

Destination based cash flow tax, (aka border adjusted tax).

Excerpted from:
https://www.debatepolitics.com/economics/282068-border-adjusted-tax-enterprises.html#post1067023078

Regarding house speaker Paul Ryan, chairman of the house ways and means committee Kevin Brady, and other house Republicans considering transformation of our federal corporate income taxes to be destination based cash flow tax, (aka border adjusted tax): ...

... I’m among the proponents forUSA unilaterally adopting the trade policy described within Wikipedia’s “ImportCertificates” article. It would almost or entirely eliminate USA’s chronic annual trade deficits of our globally traded goods. It’s not applicable to the values of scarce or precious minerals integral to the goods or to intangible products.
[I acknowledge the difficulty of objectively assessing the commercial values of even tangible products when they are at USA entry or exit ports.This difficulty is Import Certificate’s greatest fault.

I too agree government’s discretionary powers should be limited to a feasible possible extent; [although it would be civil service statisticians and economists that would establish and annually update guide lines for assessing the values of goods, it’s still under the legislature and administrative, (and thus political) oversight]. ...

... Similarly, to the concept of Import Certificates, the Republicans claim this unilateral proposal would greatly eliminate our price disadvantage to imported goods within USA's domestic markets, promote our exports and reduce our chronic annual trade deficits.

Unlike Import Certificates, it’s applicable to goods and service products and government does not determine or confirm their commercial values for tax purposes.

I just don’t understand how it would [or could] work; its explainers are less explicit and more confusing.

Respectfully, Supposn

James972 · Mar 24, 2017

I'm Supposn said:
I just don’t understand how it would [or could] work; its explainers are less explicit and more confusing.

Respectfully, Supposn

I agree, it's all new and very confusing and we won't know how it will work until long after it has been implimented. Its like the Ryan health care plan: a sad excuse to prevent the free market from working its magic. What you want is to eliminate the the business tax altogether so that business is free to make decisions based purely on delivery of the best products at the lowest price.