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Is Finland’s basic universal income a solution to automation, fewer jobs?

ataraxia said:
Do you have any stats to back that up? Or is that something you just hear every day on Fox?
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No, I'm a citizen not a deadbead resercher who is also mooching off the taxpayers.

But if arent living in a bubble you must have heard about or met people like that
 
ataraxia said:
Do you have any stats to back that up? Or is that something you just hear every day on Fox?
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when Clinton and Newt ended welfare as we know it by making it workfare fully half decided they were no long poor enough to need welfare!! Now do you understand?
 
Mac77 said:
But well intentioned liberals have expanded to to every deadbeat who is too lazy to work.

Too many people are freeloading off the backs of others
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"

Thomas Jefferson:
the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to grain ground; that the greater the government the stronger the exploiter and the weaker the producer; that , therefore, the hope of liberty depends upon local self governance and the vigilance of the producer class."
 
Mac77 said:
But well intentioned liberals have expanded to to every deadbeat who is too lazy to work.
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why do you say well intended?? Do you think they love illegals from Mexico more than legals from Europe and Asia because they are well intended or because they know illegals will vote for them, Liberals are treasonously subverting our democracy
 
James972 said:
why do you say well intended?? Do you think they love illegals from Mexico more than legals from Europe and Asia because they are well intended or because they know illegals will vote for them, Liberals are treasonously subverting our democracy
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I think the first impulse of liberals is to wipe every nose

Particularly the bleeding heart types who post here

But certainly their leaders in washington dc understand the value of shoeless mexicans in the voting booth
 
Mac77 said:
No, I'm a citizen not a deadbead resercher who is also mooching off the taxpayers.

But if arent living in a bubble you must have heard about or met people like that
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I have also heard of people who who run traffic lights. But I am not out to get rid of all traffic lights either.
 
James972 said:
why do you say well intended?? Do you think they love illegals from Mexico more than legals from Europe and Asia because they are well intended or because they know illegals will vote for them, Liberals are treasonously subverting our democracy
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LOL, you think the Koch brothers and the puppet masters running those right wing media outlets think the real problem is Mexican immigrants? They are just using all the misinformation, ignorance, paranoia, baseless hate if Trump supporters to ride them like a stupid angry bull at the rodeo. They will get them to take away all human rights and human dignity from those "Cadillac driving welfare queens" and "shoeless illegal Mexican immigrants", only to realize too late that they themselves were the ones they were talking about all along. The joke is on them.

How Trumponomics Will Hurt Trump Voters - Hartford Courant

Trump Supporters Now Realize Repealing ACA Will Take Away Their Healthcare – The Business Standard News

I guess that's what happens when they so forcefully shut their ears to all evil "MSM media" (reality) and refuse to be a "deadbeat researcher" (remain stubbornly and wilfully ignorant and blind).
 
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ataraxia said:
LOL, you think the Koch brothers and the puppet masters running those right wing media outlets think the real problem is Mexican immigrants? .
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if I said that I'll pay you $10,000. Bet??
 
Guaranteed income is a terrible idea and nothing but a moocher's paradise.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
For your enjoyment:

The spiritual ruin of a universal basic income

Pretty much nails my take on this.
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Definitely get where he's coming from, I do think work as a means of providing structure and esteem is very much a thing to say nothing of the value it creates for society. That said, I don't think UBI/GMI is mutually exclusive with such programs and I would very much support a work component for them (infrastructure investment + welfare in one), so long as it provides ample time for concrete self-improvement/development or provides an exemption for them: college education, job training, trade skills, etc, and of course is guaranteed to those who cannot work.

However he especially lost me at the end there when he talks about disincentivizing automation. Automation is not something that should be fought against (nevermind that it's a futile act; such an initiative is guaranteed to be on the wrong side of history).
 
Surrealistik said:
Definitely get where he's coming from
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However he especially lost me at the end there when he talks about disincentivizing automation).
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I roll with it, just because we can do something does not mean we should, taking away from humans that which we need and having machines do it is not wise. Nor do I believe that we cant set up our systems as we need them to be, at the end of the day I believe in the ability of man to overcome adversity, in the eventual victory of our will. My animosity towards modern progressives is not do to their desire to get to Utopia, it is because they practice sadism to get there which is both wrong and will doom the project.
 
Surrealistik said:
However he especially lost me at the end there when he talks about disincentivizing automation. Automation is not something that should be fought against (nevermind that it's a futile act; such an initiative is guaranteed to be on the wrong side of history).
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when Milton Friedman was looking at a Dam project underway in China he asked, why so many men with wheel barrels. Chinese official said its a jobs program too. Friedman said, well then why not have them all use spoons and you can instantly employ every person in China forever!
 
James972 said:
when Milton Friedman was looking at a Dam project underway in China he asked, why so many men with wheel barrels. Chinese official said its a jobs program too. Friedman said, well then why not have them all use spoons and you can instantly employ every person in China forever!
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Building/maintaining useful infrastructure doesn't mean doing the job inefficiently; beyond that there's a _lot_ of work to be done in this regard in the States, with more than enough projects to soak untapped, work capable labour.
 
Surrealistik said:
Building/maintaining useful infrastructure doesn't mean doing the job inefficiently;
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it does if your objective is maximum instant employment without the need for retraining
 
Surrealistik said:
with more than enough projects to soak untapped, work capable labour.
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the issue is do you want workers to use spoons or the latest most efficient equipment?
 
James972 said:
it does if your objective is maximum instant employment without the need for retraining
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If formal training is required for a position, including for such an infrastructure project, it would of course be provided. People aren't just going to be handed pickaxes and told to get to work; even min wage jobs have a training period.

James972 said:
the issue is do you want workers to use spoons or the latest most efficient equipment?
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You probably won't have the bleeding edge at every last work site, but you certainly won't be using spoons.
 
Surrealistik said:
You probably won't have the bleeding edge at every last work site, but you certainly won't be using spoons.
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why not use spoons until you have 100% employment
 
James972 said:
why not use spoons until you have 100% employment
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Because you will always have much better; infrastructure spending includes equipment, not just labour.
 
Surrealistik said:
Because you will always have much better; infrastructure spending includes equipment, not just labour.
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the issue is not what infrastructure spending includes but how you cope with automation and concomitant elimination of labor. Do you understand?
 
James972 said:
the issue is not what infrastructure spending includes but how you cope with automation and concomitant elimination of labor. Do you understand?
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Infrastructure spending that doubles as welfare is a part of that coping; that's the point of something like the MIC/GMI: to account for the fact that automation and outsourcing are likely to ultimately increase persistent unemployment and underemployment in the long run.
 
Surrealistik said:
Infrastructure spending that doubles as welfare is a part of that coping;
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bridges to nowhere and welfare will make us all poorer, not richer. There is no problem with great labor eliminating inventions like hammer nail screw electricity motor car etc. Japan proved that 10,000 new bridges to nowhere do nothing for an economy!! Now do you understand?
 
James972 said:
bridges to nowhere and welfare will make us all poorer, not richer. There is no problem with great labor eliminating inventions like hammer nail screw electricity motor car etc. Japan proved that 10,000 new bridges to nowhere do nothing for an economy!! Now do you understand?
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Now you're asserting that there aren't enough valuable infrastructure projects to make such spending worthwhile, nevermind maintenance needs which is just not true. I don't think the lack of understanding is on my end here.

Japan's problems are largely a matter of demographics (xenophobia + a long lived, aging population that doesn't want to reproduce is a particularly bad combination), not wasteful infrastructure investment.
 
Surrealistik said:
Now you're asserting that there aren't enough valuable infrastructure projects to make such spending worthwhile,.
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so whats your best example????? I wonder why you forgot to present it to make your point really clear?? Too busy parroting the liberal media to know you've been brainwashed
 
Surrealistik said:
Japan's problems are largely a matter of demographics (xenophobia + a long lived, aging population that doesn't want to reproduce is a particularly bad combination), not wasteful infrastructure investment.
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wrong of course govt stimulus spending is supposed to help from the starting baseline. Their bridge infrastructure stimulus failed just like our housing stimulus failed in 2007!! Now do you understand??
 
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