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Uber loses landmark employment tribunal case in the UK

Lafayette

Lafayette

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Will UBER make for the demise of unions, as people who once had a job turn to UBER when their UI runs out? And though earning a compensation, are not considered "employees"?


Not in the UK, where some employees just won a court case against UBER: Uber loses landmark employment tribunal case – as it happened. Excerpt:
The London Central Employment Tribunal has found that a group of Uber drivers are workers and are entitled to receive the National Minimum Wage and holiday pay.

In a landmark ruling that follows a hearing in July, which will affect tens of thousands of Uber drivers, the Employment Tribunal has ruled today that a group of Uber drivers are not self-employed but are workers who are entitled to essential workers’ rights including to be paid the National Minimum Wage and receive paid holiday.
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Uh oh.

NB: UBER says it will appeal the verdict. Of course ...
 
Lafayette said:
Will UBER make for the demise of unions, as people who once had a job turn to UBER when their UI runs out? And though earning a compensation, are not considered "employees"?


Not in the UK, where some employees just won a court case against UBER: Uber loses landmark employment tribunal case – as it happened. Excerpt:

Uh oh.

NB: UBER says it will appeal the verdict. Of course ...
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Uber's business model is contingent on the people who work with/for them not being considered employees. It is a nebulous gray area that's easy to fix in the courts. Uber's business model hinged on thinking that the government would not be able to easily clarify that grey area that they operated within.
 
reinoe said:
Uber's business model is contingent on the people who work with/for them not being considered employees. It is a nebulous gray area that's easy to fix in the courts. Uber's business model hinged on thinking that the government would not be able to easily clarify that grey area that they operated within.
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Being their business model is contingent upon uber drivers being independent contractors, if Uber ultimately loses this case I suspect there are going to be some drivers in the UK with no source of income. That ought to make em happy. :lol:
 
These types of businesses will do anything to beat other businesses - up to and including abusing their employees. If there are good companies, I don't believe Uber is among them. For some, this was a last resort when they could find no other form of employment, and they ended up essentially getting drained of resources for the benefit of Uber.

I don't believe business is about shafting everyone below you beyond recognition.
 
Lafayette said:
Will UBER make for the demise of unions, as people who once had a job turn to UBER when their UI runs out? And though earning a compensation, are not considered "employees"?


Not in the UK, where some employees just won a court case against UBER: Uber loses landmark employment tribunal case – as it happened. Excerpt:

Uh oh.

NB: UBER says it will appeal the verdict. Of course ...
Click to expand...

The idea that an "employee" can be on call, sitting at home, and is entitled to MW pay for periods of inactivity between fares is ridiculous. If I am on an "installer" list for Lowe's or Home Depot products then I get paid only for the installations that I actually perform (if any) but not for the waiting time between such jobs. It is simply insane to pay folks to sit on their sofas at home waiting for possible Uber dispatch calls.
 
Lafayette said:
Will UBER make for the demise of unions, as people who once had a job turn to UBER when their UI runs out? And though earning a compensation, are not considered "employees"?


Not in the UK, where some employees just won a court case against UBER: Uber loses landmark employment tribunal case – as it happened. Excerpt:

Uh oh.

NB: UBER says it will appeal the verdict. Of course ...
Click to expand...

In London there are relatively strong political forces backing transport cartels without which the business model of individual London transport falters. Uber is a technology disruptive of the cartel. people get creative, when their business model is in danger. I am surprised, actually, that the court would have found as it did, given the information in the articles I have read.
 
reinoe said:
Uber's business model is contingent on the people who work with/for them not being considered employees. It is a nebulous gray area that's easy to fix in the courts. Uber's business model hinged on thinking that the government would not be able to easily clarify that grey area that they operated within.
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All that will happen will be for Uber to alter the contracts a little to make the independent nature of drivers using the platform more evident. Then there will be a new court case.
 
Winchester said:
Being their business model is contingent upon uber drivers being independent contractors, if Uber ultimately loses this case I suspect there are going to be some drivers in the UK with no source of income. That ought to make em happy. :lol:
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That probably does not worry the judge very much.
 
Celebrity said:
These types of businesses will do anything to beat other businesses - up to and including abusing their employees. If there are good companies, I don't believe Uber is among them. For some, this was a last resort when they could find no other form of employment, and they ended up essentially getting drained of resources for the benefit of Uber.

I don't believe business is about shafting everyone below you beyond recognition.
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Exactly how is Uber screwing anyone. Every Uber driver I have talked loves it. I love it because quite frankly they kick the tails of the taxis badly when it comes to promptness and service and price.
 
Uber represents the rejection of a workforce. One way or another they are going to be reigned in.
 
Winchester said:
Being their business model is contingent upon uber drivers being independent contractors, if Uber ultimately loses this case I suspect there are going to be some drivers in the UK with no source of income. That ought to make em happy. :lol:
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People have tendency to not think things through sadly. When the government decides to award their idiocy that is when things get fun.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The idea that an "employee" can be on call, sitting at home, and is entitled to MW pay for periods of inactivity between fares is ridiculous. If I am on an "installer" list for Lowe's or Home Depot products then I get paid only for the installations that I actually perform (if any) but not for the waiting time between such jobs. It is simply insane to pay folks to sit on their sofas at home waiting for possible Uber dispatch calls.
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Well, it is possible to accrue "work credit" towards vacation days for the time periods you are actually on the clock. To get additional pay for working a holiday. To get overtime for periods where you have worked more than 40 hours in any designated week.

That's not arguing for pay when you are sitting on your couch.

As for unemployment, in some States temporary employees who accrue enough wages over a set period of time to constitute bona fide work are eligible for unemployment benefits during down periods (although temp agencies can challenge any week the employee fails to contact them for work availability). Moreover, even independent contractors (like Uber employees) can get such benefits from such earnings if the work provided is a necessary part of the business model i.e. a service provided by the business.
 
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PirateMk1 said:
Exactly how is Uber screwing anyone. Every Uber driver I have talked loves it. I love it because quite frankly they kick the tails of the taxis badly when it comes to promptness and service and price.
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If you have the discipline to put away and file quarterly taxes, and set aside enough to pay for a new car every couple of years, then Uber is for you. Uber has managed to run a company by shifting risk and capital needs to desperate freelancers
 
joG said:
All that will happen will be for Uber to alter the contracts a little to make the independent nature of drivers using the platform more evident. Then there will be a new court case.
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One can only suffer endless lawsuits for so long - mounting legal costs can be quite effective at shutting down the unwanted competition with established taxi services. Laws and regulations often differ for brick and mortar operations as opposed to street, mobile or online vendors of the same products/services.
 
chuckiechan said:
If you have the discipline to put away and file quarterly taxes, and set aside enough to pay for a new car every couple of years, then Uber is for you. Uber has managed to run a company by shifting risk and capital needs to desperate freelancers
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That is no different than stores using independent (contract) installers for their home improvement products. As one of their installation contractors I must then supply my own transportation, tools, expertise and labor to get the job done - but the store provides the materials and the, all important, customer contacts. Those expensive materials (including storage, and often delivery, costs) and customer contacts (including advertising costs), which are essential to my installation business, cost me nothing. If you do not see it as a win-in deal then simply don't do it.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The idea that an "employee" can be on call, sitting at home, and is entitled to MW pay for periods of inactivity between fares is ridiculous.
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Only because you are used to it as a routine.

One must ask, who am I working for? That is, who provides my work and therefore is my employer? The answer to both questions is UBER. Just like any taxi driver who is provided a cab by a taxi company.

Total salary plus overhead typically looks like this:
It includes all wages that are paid for working hours and paid breaks.
Add the value of paid time off including sick days and holidays for which the employees are paid.
Add the company contribution to any health, dental, life or other insurance policies for employees.
Add the cost of employment taxes under the Federal Insurance Contributions Act tax.
Add the value of Federal Unemployment taxes.
Add the cost of state unemployment insurance.
Add the cost of your worker's compensation contributions.
Add the costs of any additional benefits or training that you provide to your staff.
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UBER has simply reduced those to a bare minimum by excluding many. If you own your own cab, then more than likely you charge the same fare as a taxi-company (and you pay your own overheads described above).

UBER's sole novelty was to divorce ownership of the "means of production (of a service)" with the "selling the service" (over the Internet), this latter constituting the "Offering of a Taxi Service". The clients are paying a cheaper fare because the car-owner providing the service is paying his/her own Employment Benefits out of the remuneration offered by UBER. (Or not at all in most instances since most UBER-drivers are remunerated around $34K annually and do not pay, for instance, any of the above designated "extras".)

Like Employment Insurance and other such "overhead charges". Which, in some countries, is actually illegal for any company to perform.
 
reinoe said:
Uber's business model is contingent on the people who work with/for them not being considered employees. It is a nebulous gray area that's easy to fix in the courts.
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Because it has never been challenged perhaps in the US?

But as the UK has shown, when challenged, the court does not find in favor of UBER ...
 
chuckiechan said:
If you have the discipline to put away and file quarterly taxes, and set aside enough to pay for a new car every couple of years, then Uber is for you. Uber has managed to run a company by shifting risk and capital needs to desperate freelancers
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Most of the people that drive for Uber are part time looking for convenient EXTRA income. You seem to think most people cant run a business if they wanted. You also seem to think ALL Uber drivers are desperate. I use Uber quite a bit and am a fan of theirs. So far everyone I have driven with seems to like it.
 
chuckiechan said:
What's not to like until Uncle Sam comes a callin'.
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Its why theres this thing called a 1099. Second you don't have to pay quarterlies unless you go over a certain amount of money.
 
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