Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Workers

Lafayette · Nov 10, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ThoughtEx. said:
The best argument against a minimum wage hike, I have ever seen. Kudos, from someone who thinks it should go up a slight amount to adjust for inflation alone.

Wages and prices go hand in hand.

First a lesson about Prices.
*The Great Recession resulted in a 4 percentage Consumer Price Index (CPI) drop. At the outset of the Great Recession Demand weakened significantly, no longer justifying prices. So, for about two years; they went slightly lower. See here, the CPI history:

The consequence is this:
*Prices are now "well above where they were before the Great Recession", unemployment is back down to 4.9% (slightly above normal); but
*The Employment-to-population ratio is much lower than in 2007/8 because the economy is still not creating enough jobs.

The economy still needs a larger rebound, however, to get some Spending-Power back into the hands of those who have none below the Poverty Threshold. (Btw, that's 43 million fellow Americans.)

Raising the Minimum Wage puts more people presently below the Poverty Threshold at a higher level of family Income, and thus spending their income towards boosting economic growth. And who pays for that? Not the "gummint" but you and me, the Consumer. Not that much, however.

Yes, some prices will rise to cover the additional labor costs. But because of higher incomes (below the Poverty Threshold) Demand will also increase thus covering the "enhanced production costs". And so what if prices rise as long as it helps put people back to work, and thus consume at a higher income-level?

Which is apparently a notion too thick for some feeble minds.

We cannot have both ultra-low Minimum Wages AND Economic Fairness - that is, lower the number living below the Poverty Threshold ...

danielpalos · Nov 10, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ThoughtEx. said:
The best argument against a minimum wage hike, I have ever seen. Kudos, from someone who thinks it should go up a slight amount to adjust for inflation alone.

I thought the minimum wage was not meant to be permanent? Anyone starting out "entry level" would benefit. Market forces still apply and the minimum wage would not operate in a vacuum.

that is why, no one takes the right seriously about economics or the law.

danielpalos · Nov 10, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
Wages and prices go hand in hand.

First a lesson about Prices.
*The Great Recession resulted in a 4 percentage Consumer Price Index (CPI) drop. At the outset of the Great Recession Demand weakened significantly, no longer justifying prices. So, for about two years; they went slightly lower. See here, the CPI history:

The consequence is this:
*Prices are now "well above where they were before the Great Recession", unemployment is back down to 4.9% (slightly above normal); but
*The Employment-to-population ratio is much lower than in 2007/8 because the economy is still not creating enough jobs.

The economy still needs a larger rebound, however, to get some Spending-Power back into the hands of those who have none below the Poverty Threshold. (Btw, that's 43 million fellow Americans.)

Raising the Minimum Wage puts more people presently below the Poverty Threshold at a higher level of family Income, and thus spending their income towards boosting economic growth. And who pays for that? Not the "gummint" but you and me, the Consumer. Not that much, however.

Yes, some prices will rise to cover the additional labor costs. But because of higher incomes (below the Poverty Threshold) Demand will also increase thus covering the "enhanced production costs". And so what if prices rise as long as it helps put people back to work, and thus consume at a higher income-level?

Which is apparently a notion too thick for some feeble minds.

We cannot have both ultra-low Minimum Wages AND Economic Fairness - that is, lower the number living below the Poverty Threshold ...

The fantastical right wing likes to conflate, price inflation with general or economic inflation.

ThoughtEx. · Nov 10, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

danielpalos said:
I thought the minimum wage was not meant to be permanent? Anyone starting out "entry level" would benefit. Market forces still apply and the minimum wage would not operate in a vacuum.

that is why, no one takes the right seriously about economics or the law.

Well, I'm neither right or left. So I can't really speak for either. The way I see it, Labor is a resource. And a business' biggest expense is usually labor. Now, markets are by no means a fair competition in this walmart/china age. They have to compete with either a global conglomerate that can outproduce and thus sell at bulk rates, or a country that pays their labor pennies on the dollar.

While, paying our workers more will give them more money to shop locally and improve their economy. Trends suggest they won't. They will shop on Amazon, Ebay, and send that money elsewhere. Effectively siphoning off a communities wealth. Conservatives think the way to let Businesses compete in these harsh markets is by lowering taxes. But they to a person, don't get if they lower taxes for the large corps to, they aren't allowing small business a fair chance to compete.

It is great that the American standard of living is so high, but it also demands a high income. One which the markets can't support for everyone, or even most people. Which leads people to borrow money, to upkeep their standards. This is the worst, I think, because our current system of lending revolves around creating new money (which increases inflation) for these loans. Normally, the Fed has tools to curb inflation. But they are not popular because they slow the economy down. And conservatives and liberals both campaign on keeping the economy heated up, promising quick fixes to keep everyone happy during their term. Part of Obama's problem, he slowed the economy down to fix it, while conservatives all cried foul. Apparently when fixing their cars, they think its ok to be driving at 60 mph.

That's why I think, no matter what we do with the minimum wage, it will create a new problem. So I advocate for just raising it to adjust for inflation (caused by all those loans people are taking because their wages are low). While at the same time offering incentives for trade school/vocational school for high tech jobs, the Chinese don't have. And just let them have the low tech jobs that we could have automated anyway 30 years ago, but kept people working because we were afraid of a recession.

And yes, there are more than enough High Tech Manufacturing jobs in America to handle our unemployment as is.

So to me, taxes are unimportant and minimum wage is unimportant. What we need is job training programs to fill the gaps in our current industries that no one wants to get educated for, because math is hard.

danielpalos · Nov 10, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ThoughtEx. said:
Well, I'm neither right or left. So I can't really speak for either. The way I see it, Labor is a resource. And a business' biggest expense is usually labor. Now, markets are by no means a fair competition in this walmart/china age. They have to compete with either a global conglomerate that can outproduce and thus sell at bulk rates, or a country that pays their labor pennies on the dollar.

While, paying our workers more will give them more money to shop locally and improve their economy. Trends suggest they won't. They will shop on Amazon, Ebay, and send that money elsewhere. Effectively siphoning off a communities wealth. Conservatives think the way to let Businesses compete in these harsh markets is by lowering taxes. But they to a person, don't get if they lower taxes for the large corps to, they aren't allowing small business a fair chance to compete.

It is great that the American standard of living is so high, but it also demands a high income. One which the markets can't support for everyone, or even most people. Which leads people to borrow money, to upkeep their standards. This is the worst, I think, because our current system of lending revolves around creating new money (which increases inflation) for these loans. Normally, the Fed has tools to curb inflation. But they are not popular because they slow the economy down. And conservatives and liberals both campaign on keeping the economy heated up, promising quick fixes to keep everyone happy during their term. Part of Obama's problem, he slowed the economy down to fix it, while conservatives all cried foul. Apparently when fixing their cars, they think its ok to be driving at 60 mph.

That's why I think, no matter what we do with the minimum wage, it will create a new problem. So I advocate for just raising it to adjust for inflation (caused by all those loans people are taking because their wages are low). While at the same time offering incentives for trade school/vocational school for high tech jobs, the Chinese don't have. And just let them have the low tech jobs that we could have automated anyway 30 years ago, but kept people working because we were afraid of a recession.

And yes, there are more than enough High Tech Manufacturing jobs in America to handle our unemployment as is.

So to me, taxes are unimportant and minimum wage is unimportant. What we need is job training programs to fill the gaps in our current industries that no one wants to get educated for, because math is hard.

The point is, no First World economy can compete with the Third World, on labor. It is why we use minimum wage laws, to improve our standard of living; we merely need to lower the cost of government to achieve gains from efficiency.

ThoughtEx. · Nov 10, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

danielpalos said:
The point is, no First World economy can compete with the Third World, on labor. It is why we use minimum wage laws, to improve our standard of living; we merely need to lower the cost of government to achieve gains from efficiency.

Did you actually read the post.

In it I say, our business can't offer walmart/china prices while at the same time paying American wages. If we raise the minimum wage, yes they would have more money to spend and grow the economy. But the trend is, they are not going to spend more money for local. They will use walmart, Ebay, and Amazon. Funnel the money, they should be spending in their community out of it. Thus hurting businesses forced to pay them living wages.

Thats why we need to get our labor into a field in which the whole world has to buy from us. Like High Tech Manufacturing. So instead of us working in a shoe factory for 15/hr and buying our shoes half price in china. We should work in an Airplane Part Factory for 40/hr, because we really only country that can make those parts.

Ya see? I agree with you, people need higher wages, but at the same am telling you, your ideas are to short sighted. They don't address the underlying problem of where we actually buy our stuff. Because where we buy our stuff really really matters. Like matters more than anything we could ever talk about. And this may be news to you, but no one is going to pay more for something they can get cheaper elsewhere, even if there jobs depend on it. Because thats how humanity just is.

danielpalos · Nov 10, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ThoughtEx. said:
Did you actually read the post.

In it I say, our business can't offer walmart/china prices while at the same time paying American wages. If we raise the minimum wage, yes they would have more money to spend and grow the economy. But the trend is, they are not going to spend more money for local. They will use walmart, Ebay, and Amazon. Funnel the money, they should be spending in their community out of it. Thus hurting businesses forced to pay them living wages.

Thats why we need to get our labor into a field in which the whole world has to buy from us. Like High Tech Manufacturing. So instead of us working in a shoe factory for 15/hr and buying our shoes half price in china. We should work in an Airplane Part Factory for 40/hr, because we really only country that can make those parts.

Ya see? I agree with you, people need higher wages, but at the same am telling you, your ideas are to short sighted. They don't address the underlying problem of where we actually buy our stuff. Because where we buy our stuff really really matters. Like matters more than anything we could ever talk about. And this may be news to you, but no one is going to pay more for something they can get cheaper elsewhere, even if there jobs depend on it. Because thats how humanity just is.

I am saying, expatriate firms should be excised the difference in wages, up to our minimum wage in the US.

I am also saying, Henry Ford doubled autoworker wages, not minimum wages.

Lafayette · Nov 11, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ThoughtEx. said:
... I say, our business can't offer walmart/china prices while at the same time paying American wages. If we raise the minimum wage, yes they would have more money to spend and grow the economy. But the trend is, they are not going to spend more money for local. They will use walmart, Ebay, and Amazon. Funnel the money, they should be spending in their community out of it. Thus hurting businesses forced to pay them living wages.

That notion in red above is absolute nonsense.

If we raise the Minumum Wage, business is going to close down operations and bring in goods from China, brand them and market them? This has already been done in spades since the Bamboo Curtain fell in 1991. The damage is done and there is no correcting it!

The overwhelming percentage of lower-end goods being marketed in large outlets are from the Far East. Period! (And the justice of globalization works against China as well, which is losing parts of export-trade to manufacturers in southeast Asia!)

America's industrial wash-out is over - which is why the Manufacturing part of our GDP is so small (around 12% of GDP). What remains of BigIndustry happens to be, however, highly qualified and very profitable and definitely hi-tech! Even SME-shops has also felt the impact and are a diminishing variety on our industrial landscape.

(The Dork can slam the door shut on foreign manufactured goods, but then the US will also find the doors shutting on its export trade as well. Agriculture, for instance. That sort of idiocy is a trade-war where everybody loses.)

And this is the reason I keep re-posting the same notion: Our educational system must get focused on whatever processes are necessary to get our kids qualified with a Post-Secondary Degree. (Vocational, 2-year college or 4-year university.) At present, only 50% of our kids graduating obtain that degree level. ONLY 50%!

And here comes Hillary - who plucks a BRILLIANT IDEA from Bernie Sanders, who got it from European Social Democracies - offering to subsidize in public post-secondary institutions-of-learning all kids from families earning less than $100K yearly. That platform plank alone would have assured the future of millions of our American children living today.

And now it's gonzo!

The average American child who graduates with a post-secondary degree does so with a $35K debt to repay*. This is the KEY FACTOR that would put those kids to work in an economy that very definitely has gone UP-MARKET in terms of its employment needs.

On that promise alone, Hillary should have got elected! Because the Dork has no plans whatsoever to help our kids get those degrees unless some miracle happens.

But increase the DoD budget? You betcha! We got BigMoney for that!

*Mind you, if you read American history (at the turn of the century), we also had a very difficult time to get states to agree that just a secondary degree should be guaranteed free, gratis and for nothing. See that longggg history, here that finally ended in LBJ's "Elementary and Secondary Education Act" of 1965.

Lafayette · Nov 11, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ThoughtEx. said:
Well, I'm neither right or left. So I can't really speak for either. The way I see it, Labor is a resource. And a business' biggest expense is usually labor. Now, markets are by no means a fair competition in this walmart/china age. They have to compete with either a global conglomerate that can outproduce and thus sell at bulk rates, or a country that pays their labor pennies on the dollar.

Let's also understand that the US dragged most of Europe through exactly the same experience during the onset of the Industrial Age. Our lower costs helped unhinge, for instance, the cloth industry in the UK that was dependent upon American cotton. Moreover, southern cotton was employed by the mills in New England that had ample river-water to power the cloth-making machines. Thus under-cutting the prices of English-made cloths.

Then later, when Industrial Products like machinery and chemicals were being produced, Europe had major competition from American industry.

What is happening to America today is nothing new in the history of market-economies ...

PS: And, in this line, one last note - which is very sad: How did the Nazi's know where all the Jews were living? Because IBM-Germany sold the German government punch-card and tabulating devices that maintained listings on all German nationals in the country, including their address. Supposedly IBM German management did not know for what their ultimate usage was intended. See here: IBM and the Holocaust ...

danielpalos · Nov 11, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

If Only, the Nazis had, had capital plans instead of only social plans.

KLATTU · Nov 11, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

danielpalos said:
I

that is why, no one takes the right seriously about economics or the law.

Another Pauline Kael, out-of-touch liberal. " Nobody I know takes the right seriously about economics" . LAFFRIOT.

Nobody except , say, business owners who actually deal with the issue of turning a profit on a daily basis.

danielpalos · Nov 11, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

KLATTU said:
Another Pauline Kael, out-of-touch liberal. " Nobody I know takes the right seriously about economics" . LAFFRIOT.

Nobody except , say, business owners who actually deal with the issue of turning a profit on a daily basis.

too much corporate welfare and too many, tax holidays?

Market forces still apply and the minimum wage would not operate in a vacuum.

that is why, no one takes the right seriously about economics or the law.

KLATTU · Nov 11, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

danielpalos said:
too much corporate welfare and too many, tax holidays?

Market forces still apply and the minimum wage would not operate in a vacuum.

that is why, no one takes the right seriously about economics or the law.

Sorry ,but I have no idea what you are even talking about.