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Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Workers

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ocean515 said:
Interesting. Almost the precise words I think of when I read about these minimum wage screeds from ideologically challenged people.
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Simpleton sarcasm.

M... r... a...
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Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
The Minimum Wage has very little to do with the past, and far more to do with the future.

Whatever the advance in the minimum wage, at any rate between $10 and $15 an hour (this latter having been selected by NYC) is a boon to the 50 million Americans living below the Poverty Threshold.

Btw, that's the population of California and Illinois combined. And you're dithering over a few bucks and hour, that will affect only casually the rate of cost inflation?

Moreover, you miss the point. By enhancing the minimum wage we are simply shifting money from the top (where people earn very decent income that they spend on consumption) to the bottom where people do not earn decent income and therefore spend none of it.

However, by expanding income at the bottom, we also enhance consumption - and the entire economy benefits.

Wow, if you don't understand that factor, then what a case of economic myopia ...
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http://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/30/hiking-minimum-wage-wont-stop-poverty-fed-paper.html

yes you seem to have a economic myopia case.
Even the Fed says that hiking minimum wage won't stop poverty.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
Right, and only dorks who had no functional notion whatsoever of a market-economy would make the above statement ...
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the fact that you have to resort to ad hominem shows how weak your argument is.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
Here we go again with the "Little Old Lady" story, that always comes up when discussing economics at the bottom. Next you'll be commenting that the LOLs are more in number than those incarcerated below the Poverty Threshold!

If done correctly, raising minimum-wages means shifting income from the top to the bottom. Of course, if you are someone who knee-jerks at the altar of Right-wing Economics, evidently you find that bad.

So, what I suggest (yet again) is that we change the taxation rip-off introduced by Reckless Ronnie in the 1980s and replace the flat-tax rate of 30% with a progressive rate up to 90% for the highest earners.

Then we use that money-flood to fund both UI and Tertiary Education for those who are perpetually unemployed!

You and I have different yardsticks applied to the subject of economics ...
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That (bolded above) is nonsense raising the MW alone helps some at the bottom at the expense all of those that consume. Those that consume the most, as a share (percentage?) of their income, are not at (or even near) the top. Tax policy has no connection to raising the MW except to redistribute even more income to the increased number of unemployed and poor which will result.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ludin said:
there are not exploited workers in America we have laws against that sort of thing.
if you don't like what you are being paid then do something to improve that.

if you want to drop out of high school and not go to college then that is your choice but then
you have to live with the consequences.
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I think it's cavalier to believe there are no exploited workers in the United States.

In many fly-over areas of the country where jobs are scarce and good ones almost non-existent, employers are very happy to pay minimum wage forever. And their employees will either accept it or won't work because there is no choice. There is less of this going on now than in the past, but it's there.

I think illegals are very often exploited as well. And even new LEGAL immigrants who use services to get them here in the first place. Indentured servitude isn't dead. It's just underground.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
The Minimum Wage has very little to do with the past, and far more to do with the future.

Whatever the advance in the minimum wage, at any rate between $10 and $15 an hour (this latter having been selected by NYC) is a boon to the 50 million Americans living below the Poverty Threshold.

Btw, that's the population of California and Illinois combined. And you're dithering over a few bucks and hour, that will affect only casually the rate of cost inflation?

Moreover, you miss the point. By enhancing the minimum wage we are simply shifting money from the top (where people earn very decent income that they spend on consumption) to the bottom where people do not earn decent income and therefore spend none of it.

However, by expanding income at the bottom, we also enhance consumption - and the entire economy benefits.

Wow, if you don't understand that factor, then what a case of economic myopia ...
_____________
Click to expand...

Ahhh....

So your excuse it that we are not affecting cost for everyone...but just for the rich?

Somehow, I don't think that's what'll happen. Unless, of course, you can somehow mandate that businesses set up a multi-tier price structure. Say, mandate that McDonalds charge a "rich" guy 20 bucks for his big mac and charge the little guy 2 bucks.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
You don't know me, or where I am coming from and never will.

Do come back when you have something cogent to add to the debate.

With something better than just an asinine putdown ...
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"Wah,wah,wah,someone is here who has practical experience and all I have are opinions,wah,wah,wah.
No one who actually owns a business should be allowed to speak on this thread wah,wah,wah".

So tell me Einstein,how do I get richer?
Oh wait,you haven't figured that out for yourself yet.
You may not be as smart as you seem to think you are.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

MaggieD said:
I think it's cavalier to believe there are no exploited workers in the United States.

In many fly-over areas of the country where jobs are scarce and good ones almost non-existent, employers are very happy to pay minimum wage forever. And their employees will either accept it or won't work because there is no choice. There is less of this going on now than in the past, but it's there.

I think illegals are very often exploited as well. And even new LEGAL immigrants who use services to get them here in the first place. Indentured servitude isn't dead. It's just underground.
Click to expand...

Those places don't last long as they have no one to buy their items.
so they have to pay enough money for people to come back and shop there.

illegal workers are illegal.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Fletch said:
I don't know. Why are there so many 30 year old unskilled workers today that we have to double the minimum? But if Mcdonalds is hiring, and they have two applicants--one 16 with no work history and the other with experience in fast food, who do you think they will hire?
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If someone has (12 years?) experience in "fast food" (but no job?) and still wants (feels that they deserve?) MW to work an "unskilled" position at my store then I would not waste my time hiring them.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

MaggieD said:
I think it's cavalier to believe there are no exploited workers in the United States.

In many fly-over areas of the country where jobs are scarce and good ones almost non-existent, employers are very happy to pay minimum wage forever. And their employees will either accept it or won't work because there is no choice. There is less of this going on now than in the past, but it's there.

I think illegals are very often exploited as well. And even new LEGAL immigrants who use services to get them here in the first place. Indentured servitude isn't dead. It's just underground.
Click to expand...

Maybe if we proposed it to the state that if there are more wages there is more money in circulation, meaning more taxes, meaning more money to lend banks, making for a better country?
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ttwtt78640 said:
If someone has (12 years?) experience in "fast food" (but no job?) and still wants (feels that they deserve?) MW to work an "unskilled" position at my store then I would not waste my time hiring them.
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There will likely be lots of people with experience looking for a part time job at $15 per hour. Hell, for $15 per hour, I might apply at Mcdonalds.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ludin said:
Those places don't last long as they have no one to buy their items.
so they have to pay enough money for people to come back and shop there.

illegal workers are illegal.
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They last. There's gvmt assistance.

Illegals are people. They are exploited. Legal immigrants are exploited as well. Guest workers. Exploited. We awe judged by how we treat the least of us.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
You don't know me, or where I am coming from and never will.

Do come back when you have something cogent to add to the debate.

With something better than just an asinine putdown ...
__________
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You don't know me or where I'm coming from either.
"Wah,wah,wah,there is some here who has practical experience and all I have is opinions,wah,wah,wah."
"Wah,wah,wah,no business owners should be allowed on this thread,wah,wah,wah".

So tell me,Mr.Knows Better Than Everyone Else,how do I make myself richer?
Oh wait,you haven't even figured that out for yourself.
Those who can't and don't want to take away from those who can and do.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Fletch said:
There will likely be lots of people with experience looking for a part time job at $15 per hour. Hell, for $15 per hour, I might apply at Mcdonalds.
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Now I finally see your point (I think). If easy "unskilled" work in a climate controlled, indoor, fixed work place near one's home pays as much as "unskilled" construction labor, farm labor or exterior maintenance in far flung locations, subject to unpaid weather related/seasonal forced leave, then yes those easier jobs would have much broader appeal.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
You're telling me "the truth" in an Economics Forum?

Wow! For someone who teaches the subject, you can't imagine how grateful I am ... :doh
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Hmm... someone that teaches economics in France knows how best to set wages (and tax policy?) for all businesses in the US. That expertise impresses me so much that I simply must accept your expert opinion on any economic matter. ;)
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
Report • By David Cooper • July 14, 2015, from here.

Excerpt:


Wow! Is Uncle Sam playing catch-up in the minimum-wage, or what?!?

Discuss ...
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Let's see.. the last time I worked for minimum wage was in 1958. The minimum was $1. Since that time, prices have increased by a factor of at least 10, probably more like 12 or 15. Gas was 25 cents vs. $2.50, so that's about 10 times. A candy bar was a nickle, now about a buck and a half, so that's more like 30 times. A McDonald's burger was 15 cents, and a fountain drink was 10 cents, a total of 25 cents. Can it be had for $2.50 now? I don't think so.

Oh, and there's the issue of housing. A house could be rented for about $50 a month back then, and purchased for about ten grand, depending on the location and size of the house.

So, if prices are at least ten times as much, then it follows that the minimum wage, if we're to have a meaningful minimum wage at all, should also be at least ten times as much.

Medical care is more like 100 times as expensive as it was then, but then someone working for minimum wage qualifies for Medicaid, so that shouldn't matter.

Then the question becomes: Do we need a minimum wage at all, or is there a better way to compensate workers?
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ocean515 said:
At the end of the day, the push for minimum wage increases boils down to the following:

Richard Berman: Why Unions Want a Higher Minimum Wage - WSJ

The Labor Department's collective-bargaining agreements file has a limited number of contracts available, so we were unable to determine how widespread the practice is. But the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union says that pegging its wages to the federal minimum is commonplace. On its website, the UFCW notes that "oftentimes, union contracts are triggered to implement wage hikes in the case of minimum wage increases." Such increases, the UFCW says, are "one of the many advantages of being a union member."​

This certainly explains why the corrupt SEIU is bankrolling the national $15 per hour narrative. It also answers why the SEIU owned Progressive California Legislature passed a statewide $15hr minimum wage to pander to the target audience.


View attachment 67206837

"Thunderous applause and cheers of “Si se puede” broke out as Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown signed his state’s bill. The law will increase California’s minimum wage by 50 cents next year and to $11 by 2018, before increasing by $1 every January until 2022."​
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Everyone that wants to harm the US should be out there campaigning for a minimum wage of $ 15 to be raised to $ 20 in two years.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
Italy has shown how indexing can cause more harm than cure income unfairness.

So, yes, indexing has to be employed correctly. I recall Italy having particularly a problem with it in the 1990s, and it has been overused in the public-sector in France as well. Both of which help feed pressure upon the general rate of inflation.

Here is document that explains the feature in numerous EU countries. Note that indexing in Italy is not "automatic", which is a damn fine feature in any country employing it. It must not be automatic, but justified by circumstances.

Excerpt from the linked document:

And it is far better than doing nothing and allowing those below the Poverty Threshold to suffer or turn to crime ...
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"As wage indexation in the public sector may play an important
signalling role for wage negotiators in other sectors, a specific responsibility rests on the public
sector to make its contribution to avoiding second-round effects on inflation."

That is a severe problem and should be avoided at all cost.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

MaggieD said:
They last. There's gvmt assistance.

Illegals are people. They are exploited. Legal immigrants are exploited as well. Guest workers. Exploited. We awe judged by how we treat the least of us.
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so government assistance continues to prop up those people that you say are exploited.
of course if those people found actual jobs then they would no longer need government assistance.

again illegal workers are illegal and shouldn't be working here.
it depends on the legal immigrant and their education level.

same goes with guest workers.
you don't seem to understand that pay is based on your education and work experience.

if all you can do is say would you like fries with that then you are pretty much stuck with what you can get.
with a good education or some kind of job training your value in the market place goes up.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Dittohead not! said:
Let's see.. the last time I worked for minimum wage was in 1958. The minimum was $1. Since that time, prices have increased by a factor of at least 10, probably more like 12 or 15. Gas was 25 cents vs. $2.50, so that's about 10 times. A candy bar was a nickle, now about a buck and a half, so that's more like 30 times. A McDonald's burger was 15 cents, and a fountain drink was 10 cents, a total of 25 cents. Can it be had for $2.50 now? I don't think so.

Oh, and there's the issue of housing. A house could be rented for about $50 a month back then, and purchased for about ten grand, depending on the location and size of the house.

So, if prices are at least ten times as much, then it follows that the minimum wage, if we're to have a meaningful minimum wage at all, should also be at least ten times as much.

Medical care is more like 100 times as expensive as it was then, but then someone working for minimum wage qualifies for Medicaid, so that shouldn't matter.

Then the question becomes: Do we need a minimum wage at all, or is there a better way to compensate workers?
Click to expand...

it doesn't take a lot of effort to find a 10-12 dollar an hour job is you have some skill.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ttwtt78640 said:
Hmm... someone that teaches economics in France knows how best to set wages (and tax policy?) for all businesses in the US. That expertise impresses me so much that I simply must accept your expert opinion on any economic matter. ;)
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You and me both.
Apparently he knows more about running a business than those of us who do.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

WCH said:
It would encourage 35 million to stay in that dead end job.
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That would be only those who still had their jobs. When the minimum wage forces employers to pay people more than the people earn for the employer, the employers simply do not hire those people. More and more go to automation or just scale back their businesses or take other measures so that they are still able to turn a reasonable profit. And especially when the economy is as stagnant as ours has been throughout the Obama administration, it will only swell the ranks of the unemployed.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ludin said:
so government assistance continues to prop up those people that you say are exploited.
of course if those people found actual jobs then they would no longer need government assistance.

again illegal workers are illegal and shouldn't be working here.
it depends on the legal immigrant and their education level.

same goes with guest workers.
you don't seem to understand that pay is based on your education and work experience.

if all you can do is say would you like fries with that then you are pretty much stuck with what you can get.
with a good education or some kind of job training your value in the market place goes up.
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I have a formula for prosperity.
Hard work+saving your money+getting a better education+having attainable goals+networking+some luck=Prosperity.
The moment a lot of people see the words "hard work" they run away like a vampire who just faced a cruxifix
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ludin said:
it doesn't take a lot of effort to find a 10-12 dollar an hour job is you have some skill.
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Depending on where you live, that's generally true.
Back in '58, it didn't take me long to find a job that paid $1.25 either. That hasn't changed.

Fast forward to the 21st. century, and things really have changed. Automation has ended most jobs that don't require specialized training, and that training becomes obsolete very quickly.
 
Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Verthaine said:
You and me both.
Apparently he knows more about running a business than those of us who do.
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He must since we simply do so and, even while he does not own/run a business, he is an (educated?) expert in the "economics" of both of our fields. ;)
 
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