• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

From the Economist "Poverty in America: No money no love"

In other words, you can't back up your stereotyped generalizations. Why am I not surprised?

LOL...BS!

The left is always beating the "republican anti funding drum" for education. It happens at the local, state, and federal levels.



https://shiftwa.org/house-democrats-try-to-blame-gop-for-education-underfunding/

Democrats blame GOP for poor roads, schools | The State

The Democrats' fix: Give them more money - Chicago Tribune

Fight erupts in Congress over school lunch money | TheHill
 

Non sequitur, and not what I asked about.

I told you to point to an elected Democrat who claims that everything spent on education is being managed efficiently (i.e., no wasted money). Those links say nothing about that.
 
Non sequitur, and not what I asked about.

I told you to point to an elected Democrat who claims that everything spent on education is being managed efficiently (i.e., no wasted money). Those links say nothing about that.

I am pretty sure those articles refer to elected democrats................even you cannot be that close minded.
 
Democrats don't care if money is being spent efficiently they just want more and more spend. A class of 30 kids brings in revenue of $450,000. Teacher gets $50,000 and Democrats waste $400,000 but still want more for education. Solution is Republican competition so price comes way way down and results go way way up. Soviets tried communism and it failed. We tried it in education post office health care with same result. This is why our Constitution in effect made liberalism illegal in America.

I don't believe I've ever seen this many inaccuracies in such a small amount of babble. You may have set a new record.
 
I am pretty sure those articles refer to elected democrats................even you cannot be that close minded.

Your repeated efforts to weasel out of my original challenge are falling flat, sir.

Those articles don't refer to anyone who says that no money being spent on education is being wasted.
 
Your repeated efforts to weasel out of my original challenge are falling flat, sir.

Those articles don't refer to anyone who says that no money being spent on education is being wasted.

Yah......right. That is because you assumed from the beginning that it was about wasting, when I originally said that other countries produce better results with less money per student. My claim was that democrats are the ones screaming for more money whenever the statistics on education make them look badly. You are the consummate example of goal post moving.
 
Yah......right. That is because you assumed from the beginning that it was about wasting, when I originally said that other countries produce better results with less money per student. My claim was that democrats are the ones screaming for more money whenever the statistics on education make them look badly. You are the consummate example of goal post moving.

The goal post hasn't moved an inch. And you'll notice that I didn't dispute it when you said that other countries produce better results with less money per student. Of course, it's likely that most of those countries handle their educational policies on a national level, unlike the farce of state-funded and county-funded school districts that the US uses.
 
The goal post hasn't moved an inch. And you'll notice that I didn't dispute it when you said that other countries produce better results with less money per student. Of course, it's likely that most of those countries handle their educational policies on a national level, unlike the farce of state-funded and county-funded school districts that the US uses.

I proved my point, and it's not always about the money as you and your lackies like to cry about.
 
I proved my point, and it's not always about the money as you and your lackies like to cry about.

Your point being that what the US spends on education isn't being managed wisely? I believe everyone else in this thread (except possibly the troll) agrees with that statement. I certainly do.
 
A nation that willfully rewards the failure of substandard schools and their ineffective staff to educate students is even more foolish. I am unwilling to let control (funding is control, BTW) of state/local public schools go to a governing body that gives me elective control over 3 of its 535 members and is run largely by folks 1,500 miles away.

Because there is no "central authority" as regards secondary-education, states do indeed do whatever the hell they want. In fact, there is only SAT-testing to determine differences - and SAT is voluntary not mandatory. There are only eight or eleven states (it depends) that have mandatory SAT-testing of junior high-school students. (See here.)

So, we have no idea whatsoever in the Great Nation of the United States which states may be failing badly and where. None, zip. (SAT taking is NOT mandatory across the US.) Neither are there any means to come to their aid, unless it would be the Dept. of Education in DC.

Why is that happening? The culprit is perhaps known.

From WikiP (here):
Property taxes as a primary source of funding for public education have become highly controversial, for a number of reasons. First, if a state's population and land values escalate rapidly, many longtime residents may find themselves paying property taxes much higher than anticipated. In response to this phenomenon, California's citizens passed Proposition 13 in 1978, which severely restricted the ability of the Legislature to expand the state's educational system to keep up with growth. Some states, such as Michigan, have investigated or implemented alternate schemes for funding education that may sidestep the problems of funding based mainly on property taxes by providing funding based on sales or income tax. These schemes also have failings, negatively impacting funding in a slow economy.

One of the biggest debates in funding public schools is that of local or state taxes. The federal government supplies around 8.5% of the public school system funds, according to a 2005 report by the National Center for Education Statistics. "Revenues and Expenditures for Public Elementary and Secondary Education, Table 1". National Center for Education Statistics. Retrieved June 4, 2014: The remaining split between state and local governments averages 48.7 percent from states and 42.8 percent from local sources.

Rural schools struggle with funding concerns. State funding sources often favor wealthier districts. The state establishes a minimum flat amount deemed "adequate" to educate a child based on equalized assessed value of property taxes. This favors wealthier districts with a much larger tax base. This, combined with the history of slow payment in the state, leaves rural districts searching for funds. Lack of funding leads to limited resources for teachers. Resources that directly relate to funding include access to high-speed internet, online learning programs and advanced course offerings. These resources can enhance a student's learning opportunities, but may not be available to everyone if a district cannot afford to offer specific programs. One study found that school districts spend less efficiently in areas in which they face little or no competition from other public schools, in large districts, and in areas in which residents are poor or less educated.

The only way to correct the differences among states is to assure that Federal Funding is available for adequate secondary schooling education. Otherwise, the poor will continue to get the worst schooling, which only contributes to the fact that they remain poor.

So, the fact of the matter is that we really don't know how well educated students are until they take SATs in order to apply to tertiary-level schooling - if they apply! The quilt-work of SAT scoring amongst states (for those who take the test) can be seen here: Average SAT Scores by state.

MY POINT: It is obvious that the wide variations of scores is unacceptable for the "Greatest Nation on Earth". It engenders too much "chance" in a key-determinant that has become a "matter of survival" in the Information Age ...
_____________
 
Yah......right. That is because you assumed from the beginning that it was about wasting, when I originally said that other countries produce better results with less money per student. My claim was that democrats are the ones screaming for more money whenever the statistics on education make them look badly. You are the consummate example of goal post moving.

We can debate this till the cows come home but that will not change the desultory results that are obtained from the only nationwide scoring tests (the SAT). Unfortunately, the SAT is not mandatory, so we do not know well what the differences in secondary-schooling achievement truly are.

But, they are the only secondary-school level common testing-tool we have, so these results are at least worth considering here: Average SAT scores by state

Caveat from the above site:
Forbes had written an article last year highlighting the trend of Midwest states dominating the SAT. The article reasoned that despite the relatively low number of students taking the SAT in this region, the best brains sit for the exam. So arguably, if you are from the Midwest, the competition for a good score will be a lot tougher than from other parts of the US. The mean SAT scores for total group students taking the SAT in 2015 were: Critical Reading – 495, Mathematics – 511, Writing – 484. Illinois is the state with the highest SAT score and is the only one to breach the 1800 mark to stand at 1802. This is well above the national SAT average of 1490.

Other states such as North Dakota (1791) and Michigan (1788) are also not far behind Illinois. In fact, North Dakota was last year’s winner with an average score of 1816. However, its numbers have taken a beating this year and fallen by a good 25 points this year.

The dubious distinction of the state with the lowest SAT score goes to the District of Columbia. The state is well below the national average with a SAT score of only 1313.

The dark green highlight above underscores the fact that SAT-testing is not rigorous. It tests only those students who want to pursue a tertiary level education for which the SAT-score is imperative. To know precisely the condition of secondary-schooling across the country, it would be necessary that SAT-testing be universal at the junior level of high-schools across the nation.

Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does ...
_____________________________
 
Irrelevant. I can make the same sort of silly comparison with DoD expenditures.

Our logic should be orientated towards a solution of poverty - that it occurs in one of the richest nations on Earth is an aberration. It should not exist at a level of 15% of the population incarcerated below the Poverty Threshold, which - for a family of four - is $24K per annum.

We should be looking at a Poverty Threshold rate of only 5%. What are we doing about it?

Nuthin' ... we've swept the matter under the rug and don't want to address it. Except platitudes from the Replicants who insist (with their control of both chambers of Congress) that "all is all right with the world" in which we live.

The Replicants should go tell that personally to the next riot we have in some black community - they have a wake-up call coming. (White cops shoot black-people regularly and white Americans wonder why poor blacks* are "so upset"?)

My point is this: A nation where almost half of all income is going to only 10% of the population is an aberration. Because, we 90Percenters are left to scramble after the other half. And there aint enough to go around ... !

*Historical distribution by race of national income:
Income - Real Household Income, History.jpg
______________________
 
Last edited:
I've looked at the SAT-tests and was disappointed to see that they are still multiple-choice/ True or False questions.

This makes scoring the exam mechanical. If it tests comprehension it does not test the student's ability to read and write. That is, do they make common spelling errors and do they write clearly (regardless of the subject).

So, SAT's test their ability to understand and think but not how well they communicate what they think. And it is this latter part that is most important!!!!!

I would be pleased were someone to correct this above impression if they think it is wrong - that is, they have experience in giving SAT-tests ...
__________________
 
My claim was that democrats are the ones screaming for more money whenever the statistics on education make them look badly. You are the consummate example of goal post moving.

The statistics are bad across the board, Replicant of Democrat. So, let's stop with the accusations and start considering the solutions.

It is useless to go to tertiary schooling if one's secondary-education has been inadequate - and the SAT-tests are showing enormous differences state-to-state.

Whyzzat? Because state secondary schooling is free and depends upon taxation, principally property taxes. Which is not how it should be done. It should be on a per-pupil basis and coordinated by each state, with government financial assistance where necessary. To improve schools, means or teachers.

And to stop with the hodge-podge of different teaching regimes. We need BADLY some basic courses, beyond reading, writing and calculating that are measurable. The US is by no means in the top-range when measured internationally. See the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) Study Key Findings results - they are nothing to crow about.

Secondary and Tertiary schooling should be kept in-state, since the cost is additional out-of-state. And tertiary learning must be kept as low-cost as possible for the poorer kids to enter. This is where the Federal government has a duty - that is, the well-being of any child will be largely determined by their income over their entire work lifespan.

And we have seen, in state schools, come first recession, all hell breaks loose in teaching as the tax revenue-funds wither.

That is simply not a sufficiently good reason. The US needs a Back-up Plan to guaranty that teaching secondary-school kids is not sacrificed. If it is, we are just creating tomorrow's unemployed.

We need imperatively to push our children into Tertiary Education (vocational, 2- & 4-year) where the ability to read, write, understand/think and communicate become central to working adequately well.

That Back-up Plan can be Federal spending where necessary. Which is a touchy subject, so perhaps a certain sum per student should be accorded across all states - and the states spend it as they see fit (to teach).

BUT, let that sum also have a conditional requisite. For instance, national junior-level testing exams (like the SAT but not the SAT) to ascertain the level of learning actually attained. Why not the SAT?

Because, as far as I can tell, the SAT has remained M/C & T/F, which is not sufficient in a world where writing is still a major indicator of our capacity to communicate. Communication (verbal and written) is the fundamental ability for people to comprehend one another. (Not the Boob-Tube!)

Without which a society cannot function adequately ...
_____________
 
We can debate this till the cows come home but that will not change the desultory results that are obtained from the only nationwide scoring tests (the SAT). Unfortunately, the SAT is not mandatory, so we do not know well what the differences in secondary-schooling achievement truly are.

But, they are the only secondary-school level common testing-tool we have, so these results are at least worth considering here: Average SAT scores by state

Caveat from the above site:

The dark green highlight above underscores the fact that SAT-testing is not rigorous. It tests only those students who want to pursue a tertiary level education for which the SAT-score is imperative. To know precisely the condition of secondary-schooling across the country, it would be necessary that SAT-testing be universal at the junior level of high-schools across the nation.

Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does ...
_____________________________

I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you say, and I do appreciate that you are one of the posters on here that gives a level response.
 
Because there is no "central authority" as regards secondary-education, states do indeed do whatever the hell they want. In fact, there is only SAT-testing to determine differences - and SAT is voluntary not mandatory. There are only eight or eleven states (it depends) that have mandatory SAT-testing of junior high-school students. (See here.)

So, we have no idea whatsoever in the Great Nation of the United States which states may be failing badly and where. None, zip. (SAT taking is NOT mandatory across the US.) Neither are there any means to come to their aid, unless it would be the Dept. of Education in DC.

Why is that happening? The culprit is perhaps known.

From WikiP (here):

The only way to correct the differences among states is to assure that Federal Funding is available for adequate secondary schooling education. Otherwise, the poor will continue to get the worst schooling, which only contributes to the fact that they remain poor.

So, the fact of the matter is that we really don't know how well educated students are until they take SATs in order to apply to tertiary-level schooling - if they apply! The quilt-work of SAT scoring amongst states (for those who take the test) can be seen here: Average SAT Scores by state.

MY POINT: It is obvious that the wide variations of scores is unacceptable for the "Greatest Nation on Earth". It engenders too much "chance" in a key-determinant that has become a "matter of survival" in the Information Age ...
_____________

All that just to include a link showing that DC, the only totally federlaly funded (and thus controlled) schools in the nation, rank at the bottom. Why do you suppose that is the case? Maybe it is lack of local control and not the funding level that makes the difference.

BTW, DC is second in the nation (only NY spends more) in per pupil K-12 education spending.

.Education Spending Per Student by State
 
All that just to include a link showing that DC, the only totally federlaly funded (and thus controlled) schools in the nation, rank at the bottom.

Can't imagine how you come to this idiotic conclusion, since federal funding of state secondary schools is minimal (around 6%)

BTW, DC is second in the nation (only NY spends more) in per pupil K-12 education spending.

I frankly could not give a damn. Unlike you, I feel that money is only one important criterion. The most important being there is no "common yardstick" across the nation for understanding how well or not the kids are being educated. Except the SAT, and I don't feel that it is adequate. The SAT does not measure "intelligence", and such testing is very sadly necessary.

There are multiple causes for very low education statistics. (It is not just the teachers.) And, as I said, we do not have any nation-wide reputable means of responsibly knowing how the level of "knowledge teaching" may or may not be indicated by school-grades.

Until we get a real handle on that secondary-education problem, we cannot improve the knowledge skills of our children.
 
Can't imagine how you come to this idiotic conclusion, since federal funding of state secondary schools is minimal (around 6%)

DC is not a state - it is federally funded.
 
DC is not a state - it is federally funded.

B F D - some children must absolutely have the last word.

You've had yours. Do you feel better now?

M.. r... a...
______________
 
Can't imagine how you come to this idiotic conclusion, since federal funding of state secondary schools is minimal (around 6%)
.

Just finished Reign of Error by Diane Ravich Ph.D. She has both liberal and conservative credentials and has written 4 books on education and says Fed plays a huge huge role: No child, core curriculum, charter schools, national testing, race to top, Gates Foundation, etc etc. Gee Lib Layfette wrong again
 
Back
Top Bottom