Pledge of Alegiance for a new world

KevinKohler · Mar 12, 2016

I pledge Allegiance to the trademark
of the company I serve
and to the corporation for which it stands,
one conglomerate, under the CEO, divisible,
with gross margins and bonuses for few.

Hyperbole? Sure. But I've been thinking about this for a while now, in the way I have noticed the changing dynamics between companies and the people that work for them. Ask not what your company can do for you, but what YOU can do you your company! Maybe I'm just bitter...but then, I'm only 35, how could that be, unless I've had valid reasons to be? I don't know. All I know is, I keep seeing further and further shifts towards the prevailing mindset that "the company" takes priority. Period. Over you, and your needs, you family, you life, everything. Gotta do what's good for the company. Look, we're just trying to run a business, and we have to do what's right for the business. These are lines I have to use more and more, and hear more and more. You want a job? Well, you need completely open availability, you're gonna have to submit to a credit check, a back ground check, a drug test, 2-3 interviews, each at separate times, and sometimes at separate locations. And we'll give 10 cents above minimum wage, for no more than 29 hours per week, though the average will actually be 25. Again, I'm only 35, but I remember when I could walk into a place, apply (in person), get an interview, and be employed, all within the same day. That's how it was, and it wasn't even that long ago that it was like that. First job I got out of college (right around 10 years ago, now) was like that. For Bed Bath and Beyond. No more. Now it takes WEEKS. You apply online. Which means you have to sign up, get an account. For EACH job, at EACH company you apply to. Each account has it's own password. Fill out the resume section, and then...then, my friend, comes the questionair, where you will be psychologically evaluated by a computer program based upon how consistently you lie on the answers. Then you wait. Maybe you get a phone call. Set up the interview. Then you wait. Do the interview, shake hands. Then you wait. Maybe you get another phone call. Set up the next interview. Then you wait. Do the interview, shake hands. Maybe you get hired, maybe you have yet one more interview first. Either way, you wait. Maybe you're hired. But you won't start. Not for another 3 weeks, minimum. Because you gotta wait for that back ground and credit check to clear. Then you gotta go back to take a drug test. Then you wait. Then you gotta set up an orientation. Then you wait. Then you watch hours of stupid videos. Then you wait. Finally, the day is the day, you start! Ring customers as a cashier.

I mean, for ****s sake, folks. This is not rocket science. But I think employers are doing this simply because supply is high, and demand is low, and so folks are willing...eager, even, to jump through these hoops. So why not make them? Why not treat each cashier job as if it's THE pivotal one, THIS one position that gets filled will determine the fate of the company. I get it. Employees are a companies most expensive, and typically, most valuable asset. But there in lies the problem, isn't it? That mindset right there. That we are assets. That our value is relative to the value PLACED on us solely by someone else, who can replace any one of us with at least 100 others. Even me. You think I can't be replaced, you think I couldn't take some kid off the street, and teach him to do my job, and he WOULDN'T do it, even for HALF what I make? You think YOU'RE special? That this WON'T happen to you, eventually? That you WON'T sit in an office and get told about how they are simply doing what's good for the company?

FieldTheorist · Mar 12, 2016

KevinKohler said:
I pledge Allegiance to the trademark
of the company I serve
and to the corporation for which it stands,
one conglomerate, under the CEO, divisible,
with gross margins and bonuses for few.

Hyperbole? Sure. But I've been thinking about this for a while now, in the way I have noticed the changing dynamics between companies and the people that work for them. Ask not what your company can do for you, but what YOU can do you your company! Maybe I'm just bitter...but then, I'm only 35, how could that be, unless I've had valid reasons to be? I don't know. All I know is, I keep seeing further and further shifts towards the prevailing mindset that "the company" takes priority. Period. Over you, and your needs, you family, you life, everything. Gotta do what's good for the company. Look, we're just trying to run a business, and we have to do what's right for the business. These are lines I have to use more and more, and hear more and more. You want a job? Well, you need completely open availability, you're gonna have to submit to a credit check, a back ground check, a drug test, 2-3 interviews, each at separate times, and sometimes at separate locations. And we'll give 10 cents above minimum wage, for no more than 29 hours per week, though the average will actually be 25. Again, I'm only 35, but I remember when I could walk into a place, apply (in person), get an interview, and be employed, all within the same day. That's how it was, and it wasn't even that long ago that it was like that. First job I got out of college (right around 10 years ago, now) was like that. For Bed Bath and Beyond. No more. Now it takes WEEKS. You apply online. Which means you have to sign up, get an account. For EACH job, at EACH company you apply to. Each account has it's own password. Fill out the resume section, and then...then, my friend, comes the questionair, where you will be psychologically evaluated by a computer program based upon how consistently you lie on the answers. Then you wait. Maybe you get a phone call. Set up the interview. Then you wait. Do the interview, shake hands. Then you wait. Maybe you get another phone call. Set up the next interview. Then you wait. Do the interview, shake hands. Maybe you get hired, maybe you have yet one more interview first. Either way, you wait. Maybe you're hired. But you won't start. Not for another 3 weeks, minimum. Because you gotta wait for that back ground and credit check to clear. Then you gotta go back to take a drug test. Then you wait. Then you gotta set up an orientation. Then you wait. Then you watch hours of stupid videos. Then you wait. Finally, the day is the day, you start! Ring customers as a cashier.

I mean, for ****s sake, folks. This is not rocket science. But I think employers are doing this simply because supply is high, and demand is low, and so folks are willing...eager, even, to jump through these hoops. So why not make them? Why not treat each cashier job as if it's THE pivotal one, THIS one position that gets filled will determine the fate of the company. I get it. Employees are a companies most expensive, and typically, most valuable asset. But there in lies the problem, isn't it? That mindset right there. That we are assets. That our value is relative to the value PLACED on us solely by someone else, who can replace any one of us with at least 100 others. Even me. You think I can't be replaced, you think I couldn't take some kid off the street, and teach him to do my job, and he WOULDN'T do it, even for HALF what I make? You think YOU'RE special? That this WON'T happen to you, eventually? That you WON'T sit in an office and get told about how they are simply doing what's good for the company?

Neoliberalism has been very bad for 99% of Americans, and very, very good for 1% of Americans or other very, very wealthy people abroad. If they think this is not going to be fought, or that Senators like Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and Alan Grayson are flukes... They've got another thing coming to them.

SmokeAndMirrors · Mar 12, 2016

If you're unhappy with the road you're on, take the nearest exit to one you like better.

Always works for me.

Not all exits are clearly sign posted or easy to navigate. But they're always around.

Social change starts with the smallest pieces in the machine. That'd be us.

gavinfielder · Mar 12, 2016

KevinKohler said:
But there in lies the problem, isn't it? That mindset right there. That we are assets.

Exactly how Marx put it. He defined capitalism as the commodification of labor.

With or without that framework, yeah, it's crap.

KevinKohler · Mar 12, 2016

SmokeAndMirrors said:
If you're unhappy with the road you're on, take the nearest exit to one you like better.

Always works for me.

Not all exits are clearly sign posted or easy to navigate. But they're always around.

Social change starts with the smallest pieces in the machine. That'd be us.

You know, off topic a bit, but people always tell me that, and I take it to heart, very personally. But the fact of the matter is, I'm not actually THAT unhappy. The way I see people treated, the way I sometimes have to treat people...THAT makes me unhappy. I am ecstatic about my pay. The hours aren't horrible. The work is challenging, and diverse. I travel a bit, get to see the tri state area that is NJ, NY, and CT (although...most of it's a ****hole, if I'm honest). My job is good. My job security is not, though that's mostly because I think I was promoted into something I'm not quite ready for. My nickname at home office now is "the kid", and it's a fact. I'm a solid 15-20 years younger than just about all of my peers. I'm the guy that came in to do the job for the half the money as the poor bastard before me. And I know, and so do they. But we're over it. No, what makes me unhappy is the knowledge that this company used to be family oriented, used to be focused on quality of life, used to provide great jobs with decent wages for thousands of people. And now it's not. Further driving that discontent is the knowledge to jumping ship, will most likely result in landing on another, far too similar ship. That's just the new normal in this country, and it's ****ed up, in my opinion. You see, despite my rhetoric, the way I know I come off, as a "I got mine, and don't care about anything else" sorta guy, I actually do care, and it's starting to get to me how we (and by we, I mean, corporate america) is treating america, and americans. And frankly, I can't even 100% blame politics. It's cultural. I mean, yeah, sure, if some miracle worker and their team gets into office, hijacks ****, and fixes our employment issues, SOME of the OP would go away, as demand increased for labor. But the way we treat our help? No, that's not coming from government, that's coming from the executive class. I thought that if I climbed the rungs, I would be able to effect change in my company, that possibly I could make a few people have a happy working environment. Fact is, it seems I was wrong. I've been in my new position for several months now, and I have yet to improve general morale in ONE store, or even ONE dept. And I believe it all stems from how we look at the lowest rungs of the ladder. We treat each other like cattle. We sift through their resumes and applications, judging them before we even hear their voice on the phone. Oh, this one is too old, this one had a long gap in employment, that one left their last job due to disability, etc etc etc. They're not even human beings. And I know it's not just my company, I've got friends all over, in a wide range of fields. This **** is systemic. So, after typing you a wall of text, my response is, in a great many cases, all roads lead to the same place. So frankly, what exit you take doesn't matter.

There is a problem in this country, and it's not just political.

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 12, 2016

KevinKohler said:
I pledge Allegiance to the trademark
of the company I serve
and to the corporation for which it stands,
one conglomerate, under the CEO, divisible,
with gross margins and bonuses for few.

Hyperbole? Sure. But I've been thinking about this for a while now, in the way I have noticed the changing dynamics between companies and the people that work for them. Ask not what your company can do for you, but what YOU can do you your company! Maybe I'm just bitter...but then, I'm only 35, how could that be, unless I've had valid reasons to be? I don't know. All I know is, I keep seeing further and further shifts towards the prevailing mindset that "the company" takes priority. Period. Over you, and your needs, you family, you life, everything. Gotta do what's good for the company. Look, we're just trying to run a business, and we have to do what's right for the business. These are lines I have to use more and more, and hear more and more. You want a job? Well, you need completely open availability, you're gonna have to submit to a credit check, a back ground check, a drug test, 2-3 interviews, each at separate times, and sometimes at separate locations. And we'll give 10 cents above minimum wage, for no more than 29 hours per week, though the average will actually be 25. Again, I'm only 35, but I remember when I could walk into a place, apply (in person), get an interview, and be employed, all within the same day. That's how it was, and it wasn't even that long ago that it was like that. First job I got out of college (right around 10 years ago, now) was like that. For Bed Bath and Beyond. No more. Now it takes WEEKS. You apply online. Which means you have to sign up, get an account. For EACH job, at EACH company you apply to. Each account has it's own password. Fill out the resume section, and then...then, my friend, comes the questionair, where you will be psychologically evaluated by a computer program based upon how consistently you lie on the answers. Then you wait. Maybe you get a phone call. Set up the interview. Then you wait. Do the interview, shake hands. Then you wait. Maybe you get another phone call. Set up the next interview. Then you wait. Do the interview, shake hands. Maybe you get hired, maybe you have yet one more interview first. Either way, you wait. Maybe you're hired. But you won't start. Not for another 3 weeks, minimum. Because you gotta wait for that back ground and credit check to clear. Then you gotta go back to take a drug test. Then you wait. Then you gotta set up an orientation. Then you wait. Then you watch hours of stupid videos. Then you wait. Finally, the day is the day, you start! Ring customers as a cashier.

I mean, for ****s sake, folks. This is not rocket science. But I think employers are doing this simply because supply is high, and demand is low, and so folks are willing...eager, even, to jump through these hoops. So why not make them? Why not treat each cashier job as if it's THE pivotal one, THIS one position that gets filled will determine the fate of the company. I get it. Employees are a companies most expensive, and typically, most valuable asset. But there in lies the problem, isn't it? That mindset right there. That we are assets. That our value is relative to the value PLACED on us solely by someone else, who can replace any one of us with at least 100 others. Even me. You think I can't be replaced, you think I couldn't take some kid off the street, and teach him to do my job, and he WOULDN'T do it, even for HALF what I make? You think YOU'RE special? That this WON'T happen to you, eventually? That you WON'T sit in an office and get told about how they are simply doing what's good for the company?

Best way to not let an employer have a lot of push over you, is to have extra money in the bank.
If they try to pull crap on you, tell them to get ****ed.

Find something else.

KevinKohler · Mar 12, 2016

gavinfielder said:
Exactly how Marx put it. He defined capitalism as the commodification of labor.

With or without that framework, yeah, it's crap.

Problem is, going that rout, the marxist way, is not the way, IMO. Someday it will be, when we have machines that do 99% of all the work for us, we'll have no CHOICE.

But for now, it would be ruinous, IMO.

KevinKohler · Mar 12, 2016

Harry Guerrilla said:
Best way to not let an employer have a lot of push over you, is to have extra money in the bank.
If they try to pull crap on you, tell them to get ****ed.

Find something else.

Hard to do for someone that has to devote over a month of time just to get a 9 dollar an hour, 25 hour per week job, that requires completely open availability, that may or may not get the next weeks schedule out in time for you to be able to do 2 jobs.

I'm not trying to make up excuses for this demographic of people, but I can't help but feel that there is a complete disconnect between people of, shall I say, a certain age/generation, and younger people, people in their 20s, late 20s even.

It's not something that is going to be fixed with politics, with government. It's a cultural problem. It's in the way we view certain people.

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 12, 2016

KevinKohler said:
Hard to do for someone that has to devote over a month of time just to get a 9 dollar an hour, 25 hour per week job, that requires completely open availability, that may or may not get the next weeks schedule out in time for you to be able to do 2 jobs.

I'm not trying to make up excuses for this demographic of people, but I can't help but feel that there is a complete disconnect between people of, shall I say, a certain age/generation, and younger people, people in their 20s, late 20s even.

It's not something that is going to be fixed with politics, with government. It's a cultural problem. It's in the way we view certain people.

I understand.
It took me till about 5-6 (late 20s) years ago, to get built to the point where I can more comfortably say "get ****ed" if I don't like what's being done to/with me.

The bonus of being blue collar, with experience, is that there are comparable blue collar jobs to replace the one I have.

SmokeAndMirrors · Mar 12, 2016

KevinKohler said:
You know, off topic a bit, but people always tell me that, and I take it to heart, very personally. But the fact of the matter is, I'm not actually THAT unhappy. The way I see people treated, the way I sometimes have to treat people...THAT makes me unhappy. I am ecstatic about my pay. The hours aren't horrible. The work is challenging, and diverse. I travel a bit, get to see the tri state area that is NJ, NY, and CT (although...most of it's a ****hole, if I'm honest). My job is good. My job security is not, though that's mostly because I think I was promoted into something I'm not quite ready for. My nickname at home office now is "the kid", and it's a fact. I'm a solid 15-20 years younger than just about all of my peers. I'm the guy that came in to do the job for the half the money as the poor bastard before me. And I know, and so do they. But we're over it. No, what makes me unhappy is the knowledge that this company used to be family oriented, used to be focused on quality of life, used to provide great jobs with decent wages for thousands of people. And now it's not. Further driving that discontent is the knowledge to jumping ship, will most likely result in landing on another, far too similar ship. That's just the new normal in this country, and it's ****ed up, in my opinion. You see, despite my rhetoric, the way I know I come off, as a "I got mine, and don't care about anything else" sorta guy, I actually do care, and it's starting to get to me how we (and by we, I mean, corporate america) is treating america, and americans. And frankly, I can't even 100% blame politics. It's cultural. I mean, yeah, sure, if some miracle worker and their team gets into office, hijacks ****, and fixes our employment issues, SOME of the OP would go away, as demand increased for labor. But the way we treat our help? No, that's not coming from government, that's coming from the executive class. I thought that if I climbed the rungs, I would be able to effect change in my company, that possibly I could make a few people have a happy working environment. Fact is, it seems I was wrong. I've been in my new position for several months now, and I have yet to improve general morale in ONE store, or even ONE dept. And I believe it all stems from how we look at the lowest rungs of the ladder. We treat each other like cattle. We sift through their resumes and applications, judging them before we even hear their voice on the phone. Oh, this one is too old, this one had a long gap in employment, that one left their last job due to disability, etc etc etc. They're not even human beings. And I know it's not just my company, I've got friends all over, in a wide range of fields. This **** is systemic. So, after typing you a wall of text, my response is, in a great many cases, all roads lead to the same place. So frankly, what exit you take doesn't matter.

There is a problem in this country, and it's not just political.

That's because all you're doing is playing the same game under a different banner. That's like switching from the Vikings to the Packers and saying "All sports lead to football!" No they don't. Go somewhere else.

Whether you are personally unhappy, it is clear you are existentially unhappy which, in my opinion is just as lethal.

Yes, there's a big problem. Stop playing and go do something else. As a single, relatively anonymous person, that is the biggest statement you can make: how you live your own life. You are being complicit with something you hate. So stop. There will be, perhaps, 3 or 4 people who know you, or even just know of you, and do something different because they saw you do it. And on and on it goes. It's not much. But it's what you can do as a single, relatively anonymous person. Every little helps. And if you help each each other, it helps even more.

There are literally a million things you could be doing besides the standard rat race always reaching for some imaginary platform at which you receive a pat on the head. Pick one of them instead.

KevinKohler · Mar 12, 2016

Harry Guerrilla said:
I understand.
It took me till about 5-6 (late 20s) years ago, to get built to the point where I can more comfortably say "get ****ed" if I don't like what's being done to/with me.

The bonus of being blue collar, with experience, is that there are comparable blue collar jobs to replace the one I have.

I'm currently (sorta) in the process of doing that now. I've actually got an interview this coming wed. But I can't shake the feeling that it's just gonna be more of the same.

And I'm tired of constantly changing places. I've finally worked my way up to 3.5 weeks vacation time per year again. Guess what? Now I gotta start all over again, should I get the job. I gotta establish myself again, build my reputation again, prove myself, etc etc etc. I'm tired of that. I just want to find a company to grow old with, so to speak, lol. I don't know. I just feel like I'm going to go through the trouble of jumping ship for another boat, and the new boat's gonna look just like the old, after about 3 months. I mean, there are other reasons why I'm looking to leave BJ's...primarily, I don't believe this company is going to be around in another 10 years. Since my promotion, I have seen too much, I guess. And I see it coming. The writing is on the wall for this one. And I can't afford to ride another company down, and go unemployed for months as a result. Did that once, got the T shirt. I can't seem to find blue collar that isn't retail, and in retail, if you want to make decent money, you have to weasel your way into white collar...or should I say...baby blue collar?

KevinKohler · Mar 12, 2016

SmokeAndMirrors said:
That's because all you're doing is playing the same game under a different banner. That's like switching from the Vikings to the Packers and saying "All sports lead to football!" No they don't. Go somewhere else.

Whether you are personally unhappy, it is clear you are existentially unhappy which, in my opinion is just as lethal.

Yes, there's a big problem. Stop playing and go do something else. As a single, relatively anonymous person, that is the biggest statement you can make: how you live your own life. You are being complicit with something you hate. So stop. There will be, perhaps, 3 or 4 people who know you, or even just know of you, and do something different because they saw you do it. And on and on it goes. It's not much. But it's what you can do as a single, relatively anonymous person. Every little helps. And if you help each each other, it helps even more.

There are literally a million things you could be doing besides the standard rat race always reaching for some imaginary platform at which you receive a pat on the head. Pick one of them instead.

Trouble is, finding one of those supposed million things that pay. I have a wife, 2 kids, a mortgage, two student loans. I am, in a phrase, risk averse. Whatever I find, has to land me at least, at LEAST, 45-50K per year, no less. That's the MINIMUM. And that's IF my wife agrees, as, since my promotion, we were discussing having her drop out of the work force to be a stay at home mom. Way off topic now, but frankly, I have evaluated my options, and found that my most logical, and practical, "safe" choice, is, pretty much...to stay the course. Get another job in the same field, so as to not have to start over pay wise. Money doesn't buy happyness, but being unable to make the rent doesn't lead to that destination either.

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 12, 2016

KevinKohler said:
I'm currently (sorta) in the process of doing that now. I've actually got an interview this coming wed. But I can't shake the feeling that it's just gonna be more of the same.

And I'm tired of constantly changing places. I've finally worked my way up to 3.5 weeks vacation time per year again. Guess what? Now I gotta start all over again, should I get the job. I gotta establish myself again, build my reputation again, prove myself, etc etc etc. I'm tired of that. I just want to find a company to grow old with, so to speak, lol. I don't know. I just feel like I'm going to go through the trouble of jumping ship for another boat, and the new boat's gonna look just like the old, after about 3 months. I mean, there are other reasons why I'm looking to leave BJ's...primarily, I don't believe this company is going to be around in another 10 years. Since my promotion, I have seen too much, I guess. And I see it coming. The writing is on the wall for this one. And I can't afford to ride another company down, and go unemployed for months as a result. Did that once, got the T shirt. I can't seem to find blue collar that isn't retail, and in retail, if you want to make decent money, you have to weasel your way into white collar...or should I say...baby blue collar?

Understandable, I started off in low level food service, played around in more technical white collar stuff and finally I think I'm happy doing what I do now.
No office politics, tons of independence and good pay/benefits for the level of responsibility I have.

I'd like to do something more attuned to what I think are my natural interests/talents, but college is a waste to me and can't enter those areas.

SmokeAndMirrors · Mar 12, 2016

KevinKohler said:
Trouble is, finding one of those supposed million things that pay. I have a wife, 2 kids, a mortgage, two student loans. I am, in a phrase, risk averse. Whatever I find, has to land me at least, at LEAST, 45-50K per year, no less. That's the MINIMUM. And that's IF my wife agrees, as, since my promotion, we were discussing having her drop out of the work force to be a stay at home mom. Way off topic now, but frankly, I have evaluated my options, and found that my most logical, and practical, "safe" choice, is, pretty much...to stay the course. Get another job in the same field, so as to not have to start over pay wise. Money doesn't buy happyness, but being unable to make the rent doesn't lead to that destination either.

Like I said, no one ever said the exits are easy to navigate. Options are always available, but they all have costs. You just have to decide what you want the most.

Do you care more about understanding the current system you're in and feeling safe (whether or not you are -- you did say you suspect your company will go under and you're basically replaceable, so perhaps you should evaluate whether that's even true), or do you care more about feeling like you're being effective and making the best of your life?

For people who are operating unwieldy and heavy vehicles as you are, often the exit ramp is not so much a question of risk, but rather working yourself to the bone while you try to transition while maintaining your current situation for safety. And then when your alternative income is high enough, you drop the current situation. There are other options, but that's the most common one I see as it requires the least personal change. And still very hard work.

But ultimately, it's an option that's available. Others in your situation have done it. You decide what you'd rather live with.

And if you've decided that this is where you want to stay because that is a mountain you don't want to move, well... I for one would appreciate it if you didn't try to drag down the people are going off the beaten path, as I have seen you do from time to time. If you hate this road so much, why do you discourage others who are trying or succeeding in getting off it?

After all, they are the ones who are actually taking action against the system you're complaining about and claim has made you bitter in your youth, in the small way they can. You should be cheering them on.

To me, it sounds quite a bit like you just don't want to admit that this is what you've chosen. You want to tell yourself this is some sort of inevitability so you have an excuse to continue not taking control of your life.

So either choose something else, or just square with yourself that this is what you've decided to do and you're going to own it.

KevinKohler · Mar 12, 2016

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Like I said, no one ever said the exits are easy to navigate. Options are always available, but they all have costs. You just have to decide what you want the most.

Do you care more about understanding the current system you're in and feeling safe (whether or not you are -- you did say you suspect your company will go under and you're basically replaceable, so perhaps you should evaluate whether that's even true), or do you care more about feeling like you're being effective and making the best of your life?

For people who are operating unwieldy and heavy vehicles as you are, often the exit ramp is not so much a question of risk, but rather working yourself to the bone while you try to transition while maintaining your current situation for safety. And then when your alternative income is high enough, you drop the current situation. There are other options, but that's the most common one I see as it requires the least personal change. And still very hard work.

But ultimately, it's an option that's available. Others in your situation have done it. You decide what you'd rather live with.

And if you've decided that this is where you want to stay because that is a mountain you don't want to move, well... I for one would appreciate it if you didn't try to drag down the people are going off the beaten path, as I have seen you do from time to time. If you hate this road so much, why do you discourage others who are trying or succeeding in getting off it?

After all, they are the ones who are actually taking action against the system you're complaining about and claim has made you bitter in your youth, in the small way they can. You should be cheering them on.

To me, it sounds quite a bit like you just don't want to admit that this is what you've chosen. You want to tell yourself this is some sort of inevitability so you have an excuse to continue not taking control of your life.

So either choose something else, or just square with yourself that this is what you've decided to do and you're going to own it.

Off topic and personal now, but fine. First, when have I tried to drag someone else down for choosing a different path? Sure, I have responded to people who have asked about a choice they were about to make, and the responses I have given are my honest opinions. Just because going off the beaten path worked for YOU, does not mean it's going to work for everyone else. There are literally MILLIONS of people in this country for whom it HASN'T worked, and they now live with the consequences. I see it as a matter of odds. You see it as a mountain of work. Which isn't always the case. If someone asks, I'm going to give them my honest opinion. And typically, the ODDS ARE, going off the beaten path leads you someplace were you'll die cold and alone. There's a reason the path is so beaten in the first place. My older sister tried, and she works at a freaking DELI now, completely reliant on my parents. Would you have me give people advice that is likely to lead to a similar result? Sorry, but I'm not a high school guidance counselor, that's not what I'm going to do. Maybe that's a fundamental difference between you and me. You're a dreamer, and I'm a realist. Possibly. Who knows.

As for CHOOSING the road I'm on, I'll accept that, because I don't choose to take the gigantic risk involved with getting off it. Stability is worth a lot to me. And it's not so much that the road I, personally, am on, is bad...it's that it used to be so much better, for me, and for all the other passengers on it. I'm not the sort of person who says, this road sucks, lets get off it. I'm more likely to try to fix the road. Metaphorically speaking. Which is now back on topic.

SmokeAndMirrors · Mar 12, 2016

KevinKohler said:
Off topic and personal now, but fine. First, when have I tried to drag someone else down for choosing a different path? Sure, I have responded to people who have asked about a choice they were about to make, and the responses I have given are my honest opinions. Just because going off the beaten path worked for YOU, does not mean it's going to work for everyone else. There are literally MILLIONS of people in this country for whom it HASN'T worked, and they now live with the consequences. I see it as a matter of odds. You see it as a mountain of work. Which isn't always the case. If someone asks, I'm going to give them my honest opinion. And typically, the ODDS ARE, going off the beaten path leads you someplace were you'll die cold and alone. There's a reason the path is so beaten in the first place. My older sister tried, and she works at a freaking DELI now, completely reliant on my parents. Would you have me give people advice that is likely to lead to a similar result? Sorry, but I'm not a high school guidance counselor, that's not what I'm going to do. Maybe that's a fundamental difference between you and me. You're a dreamer, and I'm a realist. Possibly. Who knows.

As for CHOOSING the road I'm on, I'll accept that, because I don't choose to take the gigantic risk involved with getting off it. Stability is worth a lot to me. And it's not so much that the road I, personally, am on, is bad...it's that it used to be so much better, for me, and for all the other passengers on it. I'm not the sort of person who says, this road sucks, lets get off it. I'm more likely to try to fix the road. Metaphorically speaking. Which is now back on topic.

Well, you started off talking about your feelings and your job, and telling everyone else they're bound to your same fate. So, what were you expecting? You didn't make an academic argument. You made a personal one.

You've even done it to success cases, including me personally. I just find it hypocritical. Misery loves company, eh?

We're talking about what people's lives are worth in society. And as far as most of us small, anonymous people are concerned, the only real control we have over that is how we live our own. It's inherently personal, and how you act within it inherently affects society.

Most people have not failed. Most people never tried, because they either genuinely believe, or want to tell themselves, that there is no other option.

Many who try don't wind up exactly where they wanted to, that's true. But they do get closer, and few regret leaving existential misery behind. It's not a desirable state of being.

So, no, you're simply wrong. People not doing what you do don't simply die in ditches. What silly nonsense.

If she is mentally and physically well, she is not trying. There is no reason she needs to be reliant on her parents, nor any reason your parents have to let her be. Although she may choose to work at a deli; I know people (with lighter vehicles, yes) who view work as mental unwinding time and prefer their work to be simple so they have more energy for the rest of their lives. That's valid too. You're the one who looks down on it.

Like I said, I've seen many workable models of people in situations like yourself taking a relatively safe -- albeit long and difficult -- exit off the road. If anything, it's safer than what you're doing now, since you'd have at least some other income coming in if things went tits up at your "safe" gig. There are actually better ways of doing it in my own opinion, but they require more fundamental change in the way one is doing the entirety of their life. And any road requires everyone on it to help.

I mean, has it occurred to you that people might be more successful at getting off the road if you were helpful instead of demeaning? If anything, the cases where I have helped others get there more safely are more rewarding than my own personal successes.

Be practical, yes. I've done some bigger undertakings in my life, and they are ****ing hard. I've never tried to tell anyone otherwise. But your nonsense about how anyone who tries to have a self-led life dies in a ditch is just you trying to keep others where you are.

You cannot fix the road by yourself. You are too small. So am I. What you can do is be one less warm body it's feeding on, and encourage anyyone else who does the same. You're not doing either one of those things.

And you know all that. You know you yelling about it here won't do anything, and you know you won't do anything within your job. There's not enough people who want it -- and you don't either. Not badly enough to be willing to take risks to do it, anyway.

You are discouraging people who are doing what you won't, and making excuses to justify why you're not.

PirateMk1 · Mar 12, 2016

KevinKohler said:
I pledge Allegiance to the trademark
of the company I serve
and to the corporation for which it stands,
one conglomerate, under the CEO, divisible,
with gross margins and bonuses for few.

Hyperbole? Sure. But I've been thinking about this for a while now, in the way I have noticed the changing dynamics between companies and the people that work for them. Ask not what your company can do for you, but what YOU can do you your company! Maybe I'm just bitter...but then, I'm only 35, how could that be, unless I've had valid reasons to be? I don't know. All I know is, I keep seeing further and further shifts towards the prevailing mindset that "the company" takes priority. Period. Over you, and your needs, you family, you life, everything. Gotta do what's good for the company. Look, we're just trying to run a business, and we have to do what's right for the business. These are lines I have to use more and more, and hear more and more. You want a job? Well, you need completely open availability, you're gonna have to submit to a credit check, a back ground check, a drug test, 2-3 interviews, each at separate times, and sometimes at separate locations. And we'll give 10 cents above minimum wage, for no more than 29 hours per week, though the average will actually be 25. Again, I'm only 35, but I remember when I could walk into a place, apply (in person), get an interview, and be employed, all within the same day. That's how it was, and it wasn't even that long ago that it was like that. First job I got out of college (right around 10 years ago, now) was like that. For Bed Bath and Beyond. No more. Now it takes WEEKS. You apply online. Which means you have to sign up, get an account. For EACH job, at EACH company you apply to. Each account has it's own password. Fill out the resume section, and then...then, my friend, comes the questionair, where you will be psychologically evaluated by a computer program based upon how consistently you lie on the answers. Then you wait. Maybe you get a phone call. Set up the interview. Then you wait. Do the interview, shake hands. Then you wait. Maybe you get another phone call. Set up the next interview. Then you wait. Do the interview, shake hands. Maybe you get hired, maybe you have yet one more interview first. Either way, you wait. Maybe you're hired. But you won't start. Not for another 3 weeks, minimum. Because you gotta wait for that back ground and credit check to clear. Then you gotta go back to take a drug test. Then you wait. Then you gotta set up an orientation. Then you wait. Then you watch hours of stupid videos. Then you wait. Finally, the day is the day, you start! Ring customers as a cashier.

I thinks its time for you to join us self employed and business owners. Then you control your destiny and you are actually indispensable, after all you are the boss. Not to mention its a hell of a lot easier when you are fired by a client because they (if your are smart anywho) are only one of several and can be replaced. If you do really good work or provide an especially good widget, more in likely they will come crawling back to you anyhow when they learn the error of they ways. I have one client I have been fired from at least 6 times that I can think of. He seems to think he can get better cheaper and don't have to pay for 120 days. He he he. Dumbass. He keeps crawling back. I have him on probation right now. Everything is prepaid if he wants my best rates right now.

Oh I forgot to mention the best part. The US and state tax code for the most part is set up to cater to business. What this means is you get to spend your money BEFORE you are taxed and therefor too a large degree control how much you are taxed. As an employee the taxes come out of your check before you even see it. That's the best benefit by far as I see it.

I have been self employed since 2006 when I got back from the sand box. I will never go back to being a employee. You should join the dark side. :darthgunny

Lafayette · Mar 12, 2016

THE NON-COMPETITIVE HEALTH-CARE MARKET IN AMERICA

FieldTheorist said:
Neoliberalism has been very bad for 99% of Americans, and very, very good for 1% of Americans

Market Consolidation in America has been an ongoing economic phenomenon for the past half century. It is really nothing new and a general economic trend that restrains competition thus creating markets with "sticky pricing" due to the lack of competition and and assuring that US healthcare markets are non-competitive.

It is quite likely the primary reason why Americans pay twice the cost (per capita) than the equivalent health-care services in Europe. See here: OECD - Focus on Health Care Spending - scroll down to Figure 2, showing how aberrantly high US healtHcare expenditures are compared to other countries.

An example from the HealthCare and hospitalization, here; Hospitals, Market Share, and Consolidation (David M. Cutler, PhD; Fiona Scott Morton, PhD, Harvard University)

Excerpt:

Over the last few decades, what was once an independent hospital has increasingly become a health system centered on inpatient institutions. Many health systems in the market today generally have 1 or more academic medical center “hubs,” surrounded by other community or short-term acute hospital “spokes,” and ownership interest or close affiliations with physicians, clinics, rehabilitation facilities, and other health care practitioners and organizations. Because hospitals are often the center of the institution, medical care across the continuum is effectively coming under the direct or indirect control of institutions that provide inpatient care.

Policy makers both revere and revile these health systems. On the one hand, lack of coordination has long been seen as a key failure of US health care.

Integrated health systems have the capacity to address the quality deficiencies resulting from lack of coordination. On the other hand, health systems can become so large that they are able to increase prices, harming consumers and taxpayers. Thus, there are increasing calls for greater antitrust scrutiny of hospital systems.

Which of these views is right? Should big health systems be treated the same as retailers or Internet companies that merge to become dominant in their markets? Or should growth of health care systems be encouraged in the name of efficiency and better outcomes? In this Special Communication, we present data on the growth of integrated systems, discuss the potential benefits and harms of integration, and consider possible remedies.

Methods - Analysis of Hospital Markets

Our analysis of hospital markets is based on data from the American Hospital Association (AHA).We used data on nonfederal, short term

The typical region in the United States has 3 to 5 consolidated health systems, spanning a wide range of care settings, and a smaller fringe of health care centers outside those systems. Consolidated health systems have advantages and drawbacks. The advantages include the ability to coordinate care across different practitioners and sites of care. Offsetting this is the potential for higher prices resulting from greater market power. Market power increases because it is difficult for insurers to bargain successfully with one of only a few health systems.

Lafayette · Mar 12, 2016

AN ACCEPTABLE STANDARD OF LIVING

KevinKohler said:
I just want to find a company to grow old with, so to speak, lol.

I really don't want to puncture any "dreams", but I suggest strongly that you (and the rest of us) disabuse ourselves of this comfort-notion.

It is a natural "feeling" to want a certain stability in our lives - my parents too spent all theirs bringing up their children in central-Massachusetts working in a plastics-factory. That was in the past postwar WW2, 1950/2000, period of a half century, when America could afford to do so. There was no real economic competition.

All that has changed, Europe has grown into a viable competitor - worse yet, China (after its outcoming in 1991) is now the second largest world economy after the US.

As I said, I don't like to puncture dreams, but until we get a handle on this Brave New Millennium World of ours, no amount for words from an addle-headed Donald Trump is going to change a simple truth. Whazzat?

That America must alter profoundly its market-economy in order that its citizens may maintain an acceptable Standard of Living. And it aint The Donald that will take us there - nor anybody in the Plutocrat Class that is manipulating presently our democratic process.

Unless, of course, we really want class-warfare that will gravely affect us all - in which case not even heaven will help America ...

KevinKohler · Mar 13, 2016

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Well, you started off talking about your feelings and your job, and telling everyone else they're bound to your same fate. So, what were you expecting? You didn't make an academic argument. You made a personal one.

You've even done it to success cases, including me personally. I just find it hypocritical. Misery loves company, eh?

We're talking about what people's lives are worth in society. And as far as most of us small, anonymous people are concerned, the only real control we have over that is how we live our own. It's inherently personal, and how you act within it inherently affects society.

Most people have not failed. Most people never tried, because they either genuinely believe, or want to tell themselves, that there is no other option.

Many who try don't wind up exactly where they wanted to, that's true. But they do get closer, and few regret leaving existential misery behind. It's not a desirable state of being.

So, no, you're simply wrong. People not doing what you do don't simply die in ditches. What silly nonsense.

If she is mentally and physically well, she is not trying. There is no reason she needs to be reliant on her parents, nor any reason your parents have to let her be. Although she may choose to work at a deli; I know people (with lighter vehicles, yes) who view work as mental unwinding time and prefer their work to be simple so they have more energy for the rest of their lives. That's valid too. You're the one who looks down on it.

Like I said, I've seen many workable models of people in situations like yourself taking a relatively safe -- albeit long and difficult -- exit off the road. If anything, it's safer than what you're doing now, since you'd have at least some other income coming in if things went tits up at your "safe" gig. There are actually better ways of doing it in my own opinion, but they require more fundamental change in the way one is doing the entirety of their life. And any road requires everyone on it to help.

I mean, has it occurred to you that people might be more successful at getting off the road if you were helpful instead of demeaning? If anything, the cases where I have helped others get there more safely are more rewarding than my own personal successes.

Be practical, yes. I've done some bigger undertakings in my life, and they are ****ing hard. I've never tried to tell anyone otherwise. But your nonsense about how anyone who tries to have a self-led life dies in a ditch is just you trying to keep others where you are.

You cannot fix the road by yourself. You are too small. So am I. What you can do is be one less warm body it's feeding on, and encourage anyyone else who does the same. You're not doing either one of those things.

And you know all that. You know you yelling about it here won't do anything, and you know you won't do anything within your job. There's not enough people who want it -- and you don't either. Not badly enough to be willing to take risks to do it, anyway.

You are discouraging people who are doing what you won't, and making excuses to justify why you're not.

First clue that this was not about me was that I chose to post it in the economics sub forum, and not self help. It only became personal after your initial post in this thread, which I indulged, and continue to do so, because, frankly, I enjoy reading what you write. Agree with it? Not in this case. But worth reading, none the less. As for telling everyone else that they are bound to the same fate, that's not entirely true. But, consider, for a moment, that almost all of retail, that I have seen, is as I have described it, and that retail is a 5 TRILLION dollar a year industry, and growing. Retail is a MAJOR employer. I read something somewhere that estimated that in the next 10 years, 1 in 5 americans will be employed in some form of retail/restaurant customer service job. 1 in 5. What YOU have done, is make the exact same mistake I see republicrats do over and over on this forum, which is to suggest a MICRO economic solution to a MACRO economic problem.