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Is anyone worth a billion dollars?

The concept of what a person is worth is a failed concept. This reduces and equates a person to a dollar value. The only other time this happens is in slavery where a person is purchased.

The correct value is what the person can produce or provide, which has intrinsic value to others that they are willing to pay the person to produce or provide.

That value is set by the market. The people buying what is produced or provided.

This thread's entire line of thought is faulty in its premise.

People are worth about ten dollars total, if we're taking about money, since that's about what you could get for the base elements that make up the human body. What they do may or may not be worth anything at all.
 
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There is no claim that a person making an extra $3-$5/hour will undermine the capitalist system. The claim is that an extra $3-$5/hour that they didn't earn (doesn't really matter what the number is) given to them by someone else who didn't earn it, taken by force from someone who did, will undermine the economy and society at large (capitalist system or otherwise).

If someone makes a billion dollars, then they were worth it to someone. Same is true of inheritance. You don't get to decide what people are worth unless you are giving them money or paying them for something.

But that's just it... when you say "...that they didn't earn".

What determines what people are worth? Now whatever your answer is (which really isn't my question), is it, in your mind ever possible in a capitalist system to pay a person less than they are worth?

Now I realize that question is vague, but I'd like you to assume that there is minimal government intervention in the private markets, people are free form physical force when making decisions. The Utopian "free market".

Now under this system you can never say that a person is paid less then they are worth, no matter how skewed the system gets. If the top .01% owned 99% of all the wealth, and those below the 80% mark made on average (in today's dollars) $10,000 (or less), there is nothing you can say based on your philosophy that this is a problem.

All one has to do is imagine what a country like that would look.

Ok fair enough, I've spouted off a ridiculous hypothetical that I'm sure you'll claim can never happen.

I certainly can't prove that it will, but my point still stands and is valid, there is nothing you could say based on what you believe about "worth" and what people "earn" that there would be anything wrong with this hypothetical.
 
The concept of what a person is worth is a failed concept. This reduces and equates a person to a dollar value. The only other time this happens is in slavery where a person is purchased.

The correct value is what the person can produce or provide, which has intrinsic value to others that they are willing to pay the person to produce or provide.

That value is set by the market. The people buying what is produced or provided.

This thread's entire line of thought is faulty in its premise.

People are worth about ten dollars total, if we're taking about money, since that's about what you could get for the base elements that make up the human body. What they do may or may not be worth anything at all.

Fair correction and poorly worded on my part, partly because the idea of assigning value to a persons production can be kind of nebulus. I certainly wasn't literately asking if anyone is worth a billion dollars, conjuring up mental imagery of people put on a stage to be bought and sold.

If a person goes to look for a job and they have a dollar amount in their heads they'ed like to earn. If they feel they are worth $50k a year, do you really think that that person means to sell themselves? No...And when I talk about worth and value I mean it in the same way a person might think of their worth in the job market....
 
So at what point do we say that a person is no longer allowed to make any profits and any further profits made will be confiscated as taxes? Isn't that really what this thread is about?
 
Fair correction and poorly worded on my part, partly because the idea of assigning value to a persons production can be kind of nebulus. I certainly wasn't literately asking if anyone is worth a billion dollars, conjuring up mental imagery of people put on a stage to be bought and sold.

If a person goes to look for a job and they have a dollar amount in their heads they'ed like to earn. If they feel they are worth $50k a year, do you really think that that person means to sell themselves? No...And when I talk about worth and value I mean it in the same way a person might think of their worth in the job market....

I understand your point and position. However, it's irrelevant what a person thinks about their self. It matters what others value them at, or more accurately, what others value their potential in services that they can provide or their product production capabilities.

A person can think they should earn $50k, but if the market won't bear it, or if the market doesn't agree with their value evaluation, then they will not get $50k. And then there's that word I used... "earn."

Many people forget that pay is in fact earned. It isn't a right or a guarantee. If a person can earn the amount they want, they can get it - or more. If they cannot earn it with their skills, knowledge and talents, then they better be prepared to devalue their self evaluation, because the market dang sure will for them.

Remember, the market is the target for selling your services or products you produce. That's the other word people don't typically associate with pay... "selling." Because that's what a person is actually doing - selling their skills, knowledge and talents to the market. And it doesn't matter if they're self employed or an employee of a company. They are selling to the consumer, the market - whether it be a client, patron or employer.

So, to use an analogy, if a consumer (an employer in your discussion) wants to buy a TV, they determine two things, what level of quality and capability they want in a TV, and what price level they are prepared to pay. The TV manufactures and retailers (the employee in your discussion) must provide both - a TV that's quality and capabilities as well as the price level are what the market requires and is prepared to purchase. In some instances, there are segments of the consumer market that are willing to sacrifice a certain level of quality and capabilities because they don't need all the bells and whistles and are only willing to pay a lower price - therefore there are manufacturers and retailers that specialize in lower priced TV's that have limited quality and limited capabilities. On the other end of the spectrum are the high end consumers that have exacting standards and have the money to pay to reach those standards. They want a TV that can communicate with the world through the internet, automatically tune to favorite stations and record favorite shows and are capable of playing video games in Dolby Surround Sound on their 100 inch curved screen. There are manufactures for those TV's but very few (just like there are jobs that pay millions of dollars, but very few, and very few people with the capability of earning it).

This is actually very simple. If a person wants to make $50k, they need to do what it takes to provide a a level of service or production capability to make there product worth $50k to the public or to their employer. If they're not willing or capable of doing that, then they need to be prepared to get paid "what they're worth" (to use the term being used in this thread) to the market.

This is also the problem with setting minimum or maximum wages. They are arbitrary numbers based on what group think believes is either a "living wage" or is more than enough for a person to live on.

Living wage? Based on what? An arbitrary number that doesn't take into consideration the variations from geographic location to geographic location due to cost of living variances as well as market availability, capability and saturation?

And who is to determine the maximum a person can earn? In the federal bailout, the government set limits on what senior management could be paid for their services that worked for companies that received federal money. That's totally antithetical to a capitalist market. So unless were prepared to go down the road to communism, we need to prevent that from ever happening again.

If a person has earned a billion dollars ($1,000,000,000.00) then obviously the market feels that whatever they provided as a service or product was worth it.

So, even though we've both agreed that the thread title is not an accurate representation or description of the facts, I will answer the question - Yes, if the market agrees... and if the market has paid them that much, then it obviously does agree.
 
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So at what point do we say that a person is no longer allowed to make any profits and any further profits made will be confiscated as taxes? Isn't that really what this thread is about?

After 253 posts, no one has said that, so no, apparently that's not what this thread is about. Nice imagination though.
 
So at what point do we say that a person is no longer allowed to make any profits and any further profits made will be confiscated as taxes?
Never. Not in this thread or any other have I ever seen a 100% tax rate proposed. But I'd gladly a debate a quadratic tax rate to balance the exponential penis theory ;).
 
I will answer the question - Yes, if the market agrees... and if the market has paid them that much, then it obviously does agree.

I think we all have some agreement that the market is the deciding factor. But don't we have some responsibility to make sure the market is doing things in the best interests (or at least with some interest) in society? What if the market is wrong or out of balance? What if these "earnings" are a symptom of an over-capitalized machine? Why do we talk as if the market is this omnipotent thing, completely out of our control? Don't we control the market via taxes, regulation, etc? How do we explain disparity shifts then? How do we explain that a CEO made 40x over his employees and today it's 400x and beyond?
 
I think we all have some agreement that the market is the deciding factor. But don't we have some responsibility to make sure the market is doing things in the best interests (or at least with some interest) in society? What if the market is wrong or out of balance? What if these "earnings" are a symptom of an over-capitalized machine? Why do we talk as if the market is this omnipotent thing, completely out of our control? Don't we control the market via taxes, regulation, etc? How do we explain disparity shifts then? How do we explain that a CEO made 40x over his employees and today it's 400x and beyond?

You ask great questions. However, I'm too tired to do you justice in an answer right now. Tomorrow when I log back on, I'll give you some details.
 
I understand your point and position. However, it's irrelevant what a person thinks about their self. It matters what others value them at, or more accurately, what others value their potential in services that they can provide or their product production capabilities.

A person can think they should earn $50k, but if the market won't bear it, or if the market doesn't agree with their value evaluation, then they will not get $50k. And then there's that word I used... "earn."

You completely missed my point.

Someone said that we haven't put value on people in 150 years, as if what I mean is that people have an actual dollar value. My example of a person believing they are worth $50k in today's market is something that most people do when they go looking for a job. It's not irrelevant, though it's not the deciding factor either. I understand that he may be forced to take $42k after he researches a bit, or maybe this hypothetical person finds himself in the rare position that he can ask more. The only point to what I said was countering the notion that I was putting actual value on people like they were cattle, not to suggest that a person should get what they think they are worth.

Moving on....

I totally agree with pdog....Why do people assume that the market system itself is infallible?

I'll ask you the same question I've asked before in this thread....

If you believe that an uninhibited market determines the costs of items and the amount of compensation that people are worth, then you could never say there was a problem if 1% if the people owned 99% of the wealth (though it doesn't have to be that extreme for the system to be totally broken), again assuming that the market was working the way that you think it should. You don't believe that society should impose rules to change anything, and if you do, then your entire idea of what the market is, is based on a false premise.
 
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then you could never say there was a problem if 1% if the people owned 99% of the wealth

I'd like to rephrase this because I think it might be what we are all after. Again, I think we have reached some agreement - worth is what the market will bear, and not necessarily based on effort.

That said, is there ANY unacceptable level of disparity in the market, even if it were considered extreme or unlikely? Or is the market what it is, and is always "perfect"? If the latter, there is no point arguing in absolutes. However, if it's the former than aren't we agreeing that the market can be imperfect even if our thresholds are different?
 
Has the counterpoint suddenly gone quite ;)?

I think I'm going to start a new thread with this new direction.
 
But that's just it... when you say "...that they didn't earn". What determines what people are worth? Now whatever your answer is (which really isn't my question), is it, in your mind ever possible in a capitalist system to pay a person less than they are worth?
What determines what people are worth is commonly called a contract. Of course it's possible to pay people less than they are worth. It's a type of theft and it happens all the time.
Now I realize that question is vague, but I'd like you to assume that there is minimal government intervention in the private markets, people are free form physical force when making decisions. The Utopian "free market".
Ok.
Now under this system you can never say that a person is paid less then they are worth, no matter how skewed the system gets. If the top .01% owned 99% of all the wealth, and those below the 80% mark made on average (in today's dollars) $10,000 (or less), there is nothing you can say based on your philosophy that this is a problem.
...and that's where you're wrong. There are two ways that such a distribution can be reached. Both are problematic. One involves physical force. The other involves free will. Your hypothetical Utopia aside, we find currently find ourselves with a bad combination of the two.
All one has to do is imagine what a country like that would look.Ok fair enough, I've spouted off a ridiculous hypothetical that I'm sure you'll claim can never happen.I certainly can't prove that it will, but my point still stands and is valid, there is nothing you could say based on what you believe about "worth" and what people "earn" that there would be anything wrong with this hypothetical.
No. Your point doesn't stand. There is something wrong with extreme inequality, and there is also something wrong with using the force of government to correct it via price controls and/or direct distribution. If the reason for the inequality is free will, then using the force of government to correct the distribution is theft and will only exacerbate the problem. If the reason for the inequality is theft, then price controls and direct distribution allow the perpetrators of theft to escape legal consequences. Frankly, price controls and direct distribution facilitate theft, so the idea of using them to correct inequality is absurd.
 
No. Your point doesn't stand. There is something wrong with extreme inequality, and there is also something wrong with using the force of government to correct it via price controls and/or direct distribution. If the reason for the inequality is free will, then using the force of government to correct the distribution is theft and will only exacerbate the problem. If the reason for the inequality is theft, then price controls and direct distribution allow the perpetrators of theft to escape legal consequences. Frankly, price controls and direct distribution facilitate theft, so the idea of using them to correct inequality is absurd.

What is wrong with extreme inequality? If somebody collects a salary that is 'wrong', wouldn't that also be theft? How do you define extreme? What would you do if your extreme point is reached?
 
What is wrong with extreme inequality?

Hunger, thirst, envy...should I go on? I have the same reasons for not wanting extreme inequality that you do. Where we differ is on the source of, and solutions to, the problem.

If somebody collects a salary that is 'wrong', wouldn't that also be theft?

If the salary is something less than what was agreed to, then yes. Somehow I'm guessing that's not what you meant.

How do you define extreme? What would you do if your extreme point is reached?

Pick some numbers, doesn't really matter what they are. Since life is inherently unfair, extreme inequality is always present. It would be present even if everyone were born with exactly the same capabilities and desires. It's not up to you or me to determine how much is enough. Too few people having the power to make that determination is one of the two primary causes of the problem you're trying to fix. My solution would be to eliminate the perverse incentives we have and let the chips fall where they may.
 
...My solution would be to eliminate the perverse incentives we have and let the chips fall where they may.

OK, you have my curiosity going...what are those perverse incentives, and how do we eliminate them?
 
If you believe that an uninhibited market determines the costs of items and the amount of compensation that people are worth, then you could never say there was a problem if 1% if the people owned 99% of the wealth (though it doesn't have to be that extreme for the system to be totally broken), again assuming that the market was working the way that you think it should. You don't believe that society should impose rules to change anything, and if you do, then your entire idea of what the market is, is based on a false premise.

This argument really boils down to what one believes is the purpose of civil government. I buy into the Jeffersonian argument that we create civil government to ensure and enhance our natural rights, such as life, liberty, property (as in the right to procure the fruits of one's labor), and the "pursuit of happiness." Under social contract theory, we bind ourselves together collectively to foster and protect these individual rights.

I also believe in the power of free markets to enhance the lives of everyone and to effectively allocate resources. Part of that power derives from the right to keep what one earns or creates from the fruit of his labor (or intellect, as the case may be). But I also think there's a point at which resources can become so concentrated in the hands of a few that the social contract is violated. Jefferson touched on the problem in a letter to James Madison:

I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable, but the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivision go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind.... The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on. If for the encouragement of industry we allow it to be appropriated, we must take care that other employment be provided to those excluded from the appropriation. If we do not, the fundamental right to labor the earth returns to the unemployed.

Letter from Thomas Jefferson to James Madison on Private Property
 
OK, you have my curiosity going...what are those perverse incentives, and how do we eliminate them?

  1. Paying people not to work.
  2. Penalizing people who do work.
  3. Paying for "higher" education programs that do not produce marketable skills.
  4. Using tax dollars to invest in private companies.
  5. Allowing politicians further control over who gets paid what, when, where, and by whom (which is why numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4 exist to the extent that they do).
  6. Allowing illegal immigrants by the millions to stay without penalty (or worse, with benefits), while requiring legal immigrants to pay thousands of dollars and spend hundreds of hours to become citizens.

Those are just a few off the top of my head. I'm curious why you asked me what they are. I know that you are aware of the perverse incentives because I've discussed them with you before. Eliminating them isn't a complicated process if we have the expectation that elected leaders behave like rational adults. The fact that they don't is painfully obvious, so draw a big circle around #5 and start there...
 
  1. ...I know that you are aware of the perverse incentives because I've discussed them with you before....


  1. I was expecting you to post some stupid stuff that I could quickly shoot down.

    You disappointed me. I can't argue against any of that.
 
I was expecting you to post some stupid stuff that I could quickly shoot down.

You disappointed me. I can't argue against any of that.

In that case, I'm glad to know that I've failed to meet your expectations.
 
I was expecting you to post some stupid stuff that I could quickly shoot down.You disappointed me. I can't argue against any of that.
Serious question: Does the real problem lie in too few people having too much money, or too few people having too much influence? If it's the latter, do you think the problem can be solved by concentrating more power into the hands of fewer people?
 
Serious question: Does the real problem lie in too few people having too much money, or too few people having too much influence? If it's the latter, do you think the problem can be solved by concentrating more power into the hands of fewer people?

Certainly not.

But power and money are highly correlated. Those who have money can purchase influence, and those who have influence often use that to gain money. I really don't see how we could ever seperate the two.
 
Certainly not.

But power and money are highly correlated. Those who have money can purchase influence, and those who have influence often use that to gain money. I really don't see how we could ever seperate the two.

Of course they are correlated, but the fact that someone else has more money than you is not, in and of itself, a problem for you. The reason I'm separating the two is to properly define the problem.
 
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