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Should Marriage Be Within The Scope of Government?

Again, is the preference revelation problem a real problem?

No it is not. Government ownership would not necessitate a supplier of anything make any decision with regards to the amount of the thing supplied differently than a private company would. The only two differences might be the price at which something is offered and where the profits go.
 
Show me a mechanism for preventing an adult from marrying a child for sexually exploitative purposes that does not involve any amount of government power and then we can talk. Until then, this whole "get government out of marriage" nonsense is moot.
 
The state should have no place in licensing marriages. At the same time, I do not necessarily oppose actions through government to allow marriage to be more equal.
 
A government doesn't have to determine the prices of products or services in a socialist or mixed economy. You again fail to understand basic concepts of economies.

I really can't think of an example in either case where the government in such a society wasn't trying to influence prices of products or services. Any mixed economy I have ever seen has done it to some degree.
 
A government doesn't have to determine the prices of products or services in a socialist or mixed economy. You again fail to understand basic concepts of economies.

You're the one who is obviously failing to defend your argument. Why? Because you fail to adequately grasp basic economics.

Consumer sovereignty means that if consumers don't think a product/service is worth the price...if they think the opportunity cost is too great...then they don't purchase it. In other words, it's the freedom to say "no thanks". Markets work because consumers have the freedom to say "no thanks" to anybody who tries to sell them a product service that they do not need, want or value. You try and sell MMT and people say "no thanks". I try and sell pragmatarianism and people say "no thanks"...which is ironic.

So either consumers can say "no thanks"...or they have to spend their money on things that they do not want, need or value. There's either consumer sovereignty...or government sovereignty. Consumers are either kings...or pawns. There's either capitalism...or socialism.

A mixed economy means that people can say "no thanks" to some goods but not other goods. If you can say "no thanks" to a good then we refer to it as a private good. If you can't say "no thanks" to a good then we refer to it as a public good.

So how in the world can you say "no thanks" to public goods? Hmmm? Oh yeah, it's called taxpayer sovereignty...aka...pragmatarianism. Taxpayers would have the freedom to shop for themselves in the public sector. That's how we can have consumer sovereignty and public ownership of the means of production.

But for some reason I'm pretty sure that you weren't talking about pragmatarianism when you said that a "government doesn't have to determine the prices of products or services in a socialist or mixed economy". So what in the world were you talking about? Can you actually manage to explain/defend your argument? You won't be able to because I think you realize how ignorant it would make you look.
 
No it is not. Government ownership would not necessitate a supplier of anything make any decision with regards to the amount of the thing supplied differently than a private company would. The only two differences might be the price at which something is offered and where the profits go.

The preference revelation problem is not a real problem? So who made this problem up...liberals, libertarians or conservatives? If you think that you know the answer then please participate in this poll......

What is the difference between the preference revelation problem and the free-rider problem? Do you think the free-rider problem is a real problem? Please be aware that it's impossible to argue that only one of them is a real problem. Well...you can argue that only one of them is a real problem...but that would just show everybody how ignorant you are.
 
Show me a mechanism for preventing an adult from marrying a child for sexually exploitative purposes that does not involve any amount of government power and then we can talk. Until then, this whole "get government out of marriage" nonsense is moot.

Wow, it's incredible how stupid this argument is. Well...or maybe it's incredibly sophisticated. Can you explain how getting the government out of marriage means that age of consent laws would be automatically abolished? Are there any other laws that would be automatically abolished? How about the law that makes rape illegal? Would that be automatically abolished as well?
 
Wow, it's incredible how stupid this argument is. Well...or maybe it's incredibly sophisticated. Can you explain how getting the government out of marriage means that age of consent laws would be automatically abolished? Are there any other laws that would be automatically abolished? How about the law that makes rape illegal? Would that be automatically abolished as well?

Let me break down how the relevant laws actually work, since you clearly don't know. Age of consent laws do not apply to married spouses. Minors under 18 can marry with parental consent, though the minimum age varies by state. I think it is seldom lower than 16, but still often below the normal age of consent. Without a legal agency overseeing the formation of the marriage, how do you enforce that the minor was not coerced and really had parental consent?

How about two people who are already married to other spouses, but estranged from them. They marry and then convert and entangle community property from their other marriages. You don't want people just ignoring their marriages and remarrying without divorcing do you? How do you prevent that? A lot of people like to complain about tax benefits for married couples, but there is a whole slew of other relevant law that is ignored and requires marriage to have legal implications. I get that "government" is a bad word to you folks, but there are a lot of consequences to the sweeping changes you want to make that you don't know about.
 
Let me break down how the relevant laws actually work, since you clearly don't know. Age of consent laws do not apply to married spouses. Minors under 18 can marry with parental consent, though the minimum age varies by state. I think it is seldom lower than 16, but still often below the normal age of consent. Without a legal agency overseeing the formation of the marriage, how do you enforce that the minor was not coerced and really had parental consent?

Whichever private organization was responsible for marrying two or more people would be responsible for adhering to the relevant laws. If they failed to adhere to the relevant laws then the police would arrest them and they would be tried in court. Where's the difficulty?

How about two people who are already married to other spouses, but estranged from them. They marry and then convert and entangle community property from their other marriages. You don't want people just ignoring their marriages and remarrying without divorcing do you? How do you prevent that? A lot of people like to complain about tax benefits for married couples, but there is a whole slew of other relevant law that is ignored and requires marriage to have legal implications.

How do I prevent it? It wouldn't be up to me to prevent it. It would be up to the private organizations responsible for marrying people. If you value their services then you'd give them your money. If you didn't, then you wouldn't. Where's the difficulty?

I get that "government" is a bad word to you folks, but there are a lot of consequences to the sweeping changes you want to make that you don't know about.

Us folks? What folks are you talking about? I'm a pragmatarian. I think you should have the freedom to spend your own tax dollars on whichever public goods are important to you. There's nothing inherently wrong with government organizations. The only problem with the current system is that taxpayers have to spend their own tax dollars on things that they do not want, need or value.

But if taxpayers can't choose where their taxes go...then the less the government does the better. Now please do everybody a favor and learn about the preference revelation problem.
 
Whichever private organization was responsible for marrying two or more people would be responsible for adhering to the relevant laws. If they failed to adhere to the relevant laws then the police would arrest them and they would be tried in court. Where's the difficulty?

How do I prevent it? It wouldn't be up to me to prevent it. It would be up to the private organizations responsible for marrying people. If you value their services then you'd give them your money. If you didn't, then you wouldn't. Where's the difficulty?

All of which necessitates there being laws about marriage.
 
So either consumers can say "no thanks"...or they have to spend their money on things that they do not want, need or value.
Consumers of private products are free to choose to purchase the things they want because they are used privately.

Public products, i.e., roads, military, policy, other various public projects are not subject to individual whim, but that of the voter. They are used for the overall general public good and thus need public approval, not pragmatic "dollar votes".
 
All of which necessitates there being laws about marriage.

Here are three premises...

1. Society has limited resources
2. Values are subjective
3. There are numerous laws

Can you grasp the complexity? No...nobody can. All we can truly grasp is our own circumstances. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that taxpayers should be able to give their taxes to whichever government organizations are responsible for enforcing the laws that they value most.

Which laws do you value most...laws concerning drugs...laws concerning the environment...laws concerning driving...or laws concerning marriage? Does it matter which laws you value most? Well yeah...unless you disagree with the three premises.

If you greatly value something then you will be willing to sacrifice other things that you don't value as much. So if you really value laws that help protect the environment...then you will be willing to sacrifice other laws that you don't value as much.

So you spend your taxes on the laws that you value most and I'll spend my taxes on the laws that I value most. The result is that our laws will protect what we, as a society, value the most.
 
Consumers of private products are free to choose to purchase the things they want because they are used privately.

Public products, i.e., roads, military, policy, other various public projects are not subject to individual whim, but that of the voter. They are used for the overall general public good and thus need public approval, not pragmatic "dollar votes".

Is the preference revelation problem a real problem?
 
Show me a mechanism for preventing an adult from marrying a child for sexually exploitative purposes that does not involve any amount of government power and then we can talk. Until then, this whole "get government out of marriage" nonsense is moot.

When people talk about "getting government out of marriage", they are talking about marriage between consenting adults. I think you are throwing out a red herring. I don't see any of the "get government out of the bedroom" crowd arguing for government to not intervene in cases of rape and other forms of sexual abuse.
 
All of which necessitates there being laws about marriage.

There are already laws to address your concerns (such as those against fraud). Any of these can be addressed without government licensing (and have been for most of civilized history).
 
When people talk about "getting government out of marriage", they are talking about marriage between consenting adults. I think you are throwing out a red herring. I don't see any of the "get government out of the bedroom" crowd arguing for government to not intervene in cases of rape and other forms of sexual abuse.

No, what they're talking about is a slogan that has no actual meaning. Often it comes from angry bigots who can't stand to have to share marriage with people they think are icky, and are more willing to destroy the whole thing than think about two men having sex. It was then taken up by anti-government types who just complain that the government exists. There is never an actual list of laws that anyone wants changed, merely railing against the issuing of marriage licenses. The many many many laws that deal with marital status are just assumed to all be resolvable by private contract, which is absolutely not true. One such example is that spouses are not required to testify against one another. Without a legal status of marriage, how would that work? There are often complaints about tax benefits, which is strange for the anti-government types in that they are arguing for people to pay higher taxes.

And the distinction between being issued a licence to marry, and having a marriage contract that either can or cannot be enforced in a court is mainly a semantic one. At some point, someone is going to say that they are or are not married, someone else is going to disagree, and the government (probably a court) is going to have to decide one way or the other. It is a meaningless demand based primarily on semantics.

And let's talk about the consequences of making it harder to prove one way or the other about a marriage. Consider also a lack of marital status on inheritance. Sure, it's easy to say that everyone should keep an updated will, but what if they don't? Suppose I die tomorrow, and three people show up to claim my stuff, all claiming to be my spouse. They all say that we had private, oral contracts (which are frequently enforceable in court). I'm dead, so you certainly can't ask me which one, if any, is really married to me. Or suppose I'm not dead. Suppose I'm injured, and in critical condition. My spouse shows up at the hospital, but I was not able to designate anyone to be my medical proxy. Who now can decide if I should receive the experimental surgery that could save my life, or rely on the less effective but thoroughly tested methods? There are far reaching implications of abolishing marital status as a legal status

The "get government out of marriage" types have only two agendas. There's the ones who don't want gays to have the same rights they do, and the ones who just blanketly oppose government. Oh, and there's the state's rights crowd who are a weird combination of the two. It's an argument that is rooted in ignorance and bigotry.
 
Often it comes from angry bigots who can't stand to have to share marriage with people they think are icky, and are more willing to destroy the whole thing than think about two men having sex.

Its the angry bigots who want government involved in marriage through such atrocities as DOMA.



It was then taken up by anti-government types who just complain that the government exists.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread advocate for no government.


The many many many laws that deal with marital status are just assumed to all be resolvable by private contract, which is absolutely not true. One such example is that spouses are not required to testify against one another. Without a legal status of marriage, how would that work?


It would work like how it worked for centuries before marriage licensing. You think any other private contracts are not considered valid in the court of law?


There are often complaints about tax benefits, which is strange for the anti-government types in that they are arguing for people to pay higher taxes.

Actually, many conservatives I've met are for those tax benefits. I personally oppose them. Being a part of a contract shouldn't grant one special benefits. If we are to have taxes they better be as fair as possible.

And the distinction between being issued a licence to marry, and having a marriage contract that either can or cannot be enforced in a court is mainly a semantic one. At some point, someone is going to say that they are or are not married, someone else is going to disagree, and the government (probably a court) is going to have to decide one way or the other. It is a meaningless demand based primarily on semantics.

Can you point to me evidence of this being a major problem before the State licensed marriage?


The "get government out of marriage" types have only two agendas. There's the ones who don't want gays to have the same rights they do,

Once again, those are the ones who WANT the State involved in marriage.

and the ones who just blanketly oppose government.

I oppose the State. But I don't necessarily oppose government.


It's an argument that is rooted in ignorance and bigotry.

How ironic you say that when the history of marriage license is rooted in bigotry.
 

You know when you're driving on the road...and you hear an approaching siren? You pull over to the side of the road because you understand that the fire truck, police car or ambulance is signalling that its mission is very important. The siren and flashing lights communicate urgency...there's an endeavor that's a higher priority than all the other endeavors.

Taxation for revenue is obsolete? Where does the government get its revenue from? Not consumers...right? Consumers aren't given the freedom to use their tax dollars to indicate what's a priority for them. Does it matter? Not in your mind.

Because you fail to understand basic economics you think that one endeavor is just as important as any other. You think that the government can simply put a siren on any car. Actually you probably think that the government is so superior that it knows exactly which cars it should put sirens on. Those cars will quickly arrive at their destinations and we'll have amazing prosperity because the less important cars will have to pull over to the side of the road.

You just don't get how or why markets work. Every day you reach into your wallet and signal how important an endeavor is to you...and you just don't fathom the significance of this mundane activity. You think it's perfectly fine if the government has a printing press that gives it the opportunity to make some sirens louder than others. You don't understand that this diminishes the sound of the other sirens. In case you missed it, it's your spending decisions which help influence how loud those other sirens are.

So stop shooting yourself in the foot. Take a second to understand that resources are not efficiently allocated if they fail to reflect your priorities.
 
You know when you're driving on the road...and you hear an approaching siren? You pull over to the side of the road because you understand that the fire truck, police car or ambulance is signalling that its mission is very important. The siren and flashing lights communicate urgency...there's an endeavor that's a higher priority than all the other endeavors.

Taxation for revenue is obsolete? Where does the government get its revenue from? Not consumers...right? Consumers aren't given the freedom to use their tax dollars to indicate what's a priority for them. Does it matter? Not in your mind.

Because you fail to understand basic economics you think that one endeavor is just as important as any other. You think that the government can simply put a siren on any car. Actually you probably think that the government is so superior that it knows exactly which cars it should put sirens on. Those cars will quickly arrive at their destinations and we'll have amazing prosperity because the less important cars will have to pull over to the side of the road.

You just don't get how or why markets work. Every day you reach into your wallet and signal how important an endeavor is to you...and you just don't fathom the significance of this mundane activity. You think it's perfectly fine if the government has a printing press that gives it the opportunity to make some sirens louder than others. You don't understand that this diminishes the sound of the other sirens. In case you missed it, it's your spending decisions which help influence how loud those other sirens are.

So stop shooting yourself in the foot. Take a second to understand that resources are not efficiently allocated if they fail to reflect your priorities.

Ask yourself one question. Can you spend or make any money at all without the first act of the government printing it into the economy? That answer is obviously no.

SO why would a country that makes its own currency need it for revenue? It doesn't.
 
Ask yourself one question. Can you spend or make any money at all without the first act of the government printing it into the economy? That answer is obviously no.

SO why would a country that makes its own currency need it for revenue? It doesn't.

But isn't revenue just feedback? Without this feedback, how can an organization know how well it's using society's limited resources?
 
But isn't revenue just feedback? Without this feedback, how can an organization know how well it's using society's limited resources?

The revenue is done by force, that can't be feedback if it is done by force.

The only feedback we have to show for how dollars are spent is by voting, public opinion, etc....
 
The revenue is done by force, that can't be feedback if it is done by force.

The only feedback we have to show for how dollars are spent is by voting, public opinion, etc....

If taxpayers could choose where their taxes go, then the revenue that government organizations received would provide important feedback. This feedback is absolutely essential. Your willingness to pay for a good/service conveys far more information than simply voting or filling out a survey.

Willingness to pay is the same thing as willingness to sacrifice. How much you are truly willing to sacrifice for a good/service helps to determine how loud the siren is. Without the intensity of all our preferences, resources will be wasted on less important uses.
 
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