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Why shouldn't I support progressive taxes?

Yet those with the most wealth and so are capable of turning such wealth into political power do it anyway.
No one is innocent, that's why we shouldn't favor any class over another. The rich man looking for a tax shelter is on the same low ethical standing as the poor man soaking up handouts. The rich will buy a politician, the poor will commit voter fraud and vote multiple times. Same thing.
 
It's unethical to favor one class over another, regardless.

It is a question of what you prefer to have in a society. One in which the rich help the poor eat and survive or one in which you prefer the poor to fend for themselves and face starvation, crime and poverty.
 
It is a question of what you prefer to have in a society. One in which the rich help the poor eat and survive or one in which you prefer the poor to fend for themselves and face starvation, crime and poverty.
I speak as a man who lives below the poverty line, I am "the poor", and I say tax everyone by the same rate. I enjoy the same freedoms as Donald Trump, and so I should be taxed at the same rate.

If you want to favor anyone, then favor veterans, police, fire and emt. Favor married couples and foster parents. Civil service should be rewarded by the state, poverty should not.
 
Taxing higher income at a higher rate doesn't really favor lower incomes, even the high income earner gets to pay the lower income tax on the lower parts of his income.

"the lower part of his income"? What??

But with your "fairness" argument in mind, we shouldn't favor one type of income over another either - like we shouldn't tax income from passive investments at a rate lower than income from work. If we taxed capital gains and inheritance exactly like we tax income from work, then we could have an overall lower tax rate for everyone.

Thanks for admitting we should tax all income the same. I needed proof of that stance for future arguments where people like JP claim the rich can simply move their income to other avenues. Since the advantage of doing that is now destroyed and all you have is less prosperous or more risky avenues while still losing the same percentage there will be no reason to do it. Thanks..
 
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I speak as a man who lives below the poverty line, I am "the poor", and I say tax everyone by the same rate. I enjoy the same freedoms as Donald Trump, and so I should be taxed at the same rate.

If you want to favor anyone, then favor veterans, police, fire and emt. Favor married couples and foster parents. Civil service should be rewarded by the state, poverty should not.

It is because you view "help" as a reward, it isn't. IT helps the overall economy and helps the rich. When more people have more money it creates what is called aggregate demand and creates jobs and higher wages.
 
No one is innocent, that's why we shouldn't favor any class over another. The rich man looking for a tax shelter is on the same low ethical standing as the poor man soaking up handouts. The rich will buy a politician, the poor will commit voter fraud and vote multiple times. Same thing.

I don't disagree that people of all classes commit fraud, but I have personally never known of any poor people voting multiple times. Most of them are to apathetic to bother to vote once, let alone multiple times.
 
It is because you view "help" as a reward, it isn't. IT helps the overall economy and helps the rich. When more people have more money it creates what is called aggregate demand and creates jobs and higher wages.

And the rich aren't worthy of being free to make that rational choice for themselves?
It is now and always will be, people like you declaring they know best, and as a result, others, whose money you want, must therefore give up ther freedoms to you...for the greater good.

I don't want your help. You can help me by not taking my earnings. That falls on deaf ears though right?
 
And the rich aren't worthy of being free to make that rational choice for themselves?

You assume they would make the rational choice.

It is now and always will be, people like you declaring they know best, and as a result, others, whose money you want, must therefore give up ther freedoms to you...for the greater good.

I don't want your help. You can help me by not taking my earnings. That falls on deaf ears though right?

I haven't declared knowing best. I use economic facts and empirical data that shows helping the poor helps the rich as well.

Austerity in Europe, cutting help to the poor, is causing people of all classes to leave their countries.
 
Austerity in Europe, cutting help to the poor, is causing people of all classes to leave their countries.

And you want to take away their freedom to leave to pursue better opportunity elsewhere?
European Exodus Reverses Well-Worn Migration Patterns - WSJ.com

The housing collapse is why people are leaving in droves. And Brazil (among others) is welcoming them with open arms, with plenty of forcecasted growth.
Spain dropped the ball and its got to unwind. If you want root causes, go back to housing crash causes, namely, we let finance companies go all-in, in the housing market, and we all lose as a result. Spain was right there with the U.S., taking out the equivalent of a loan on top of a loan on top of a loan, to gamble with. They lost, and they are paying the price.

Interesting, when government bails out car companies, they get ownership and get to dictate terms. You want government to be bailed out by the wealthy...why not let them dictate terms and get ownership? Fair is far. I mean, instead of abusing government to force them to bail you out, why not approach them like the free men and women they are, and ask for help? Instead, the publci demonizes them and tries to take it by force...you know that's how it works, and it's absurd.
 
It is because you view "help" as a reward, it isn't. IT helps the overall economy and helps the rich. When more people have more money it creates what is called aggregate demand and creates jobs and higher wages.
Not when the money is coming from the taxpayer. That only works when the homeless has an income.
 
It is because you view "help" as a reward, it isn't.

What "help" are you talking about? Putting money in people's pockets? That sure is a reward. Or maybe you don't like that word. Positive reinforcement? Appetitive stimulus? Subsidy? Take your pick. If demonstrating helplessness is a behavior that elicits help, and help ($) is a pleasant thing, then you are having an overall encouraging effect on the behavior (demonstrating helplessness) that elicits that response ($).

IT helps the overall economy and helps the rich.

That's true, "help" (i.e. putting money in people's pockets) does help the rich. The rich don't need this extra help.
 
What "help" are you talking about? Putting money in people's pockets? That sure is a reward. Or maybe you don't like that word. Positive reinforcement? Appetitive stimulus? Subsidy? Take your pick. If demonstrating helplessness is a behavior that elicits help, and help ($) is a pleasant thing, then you are having an overall encouraging effect on the behavior (demonstrating helplessness) that elicits that response ($).



That's true, "help" (i.e. putting money in people's pockets) does help the rich. The rich don't need this extra help.

The only word I ever use is aggregate demand.
 
Not when the money is coming from the taxpayer. That only works when the homeless has an income.

It doesn't HAVE to come from the taxpayer. I just partake in the raising taxes debate because taxing the rich has shown no aggregate effects on growth and productivity.

If it was up to me people should know by now that I support a job guanatee bill that replaces unemployment insurance and welfare.
 
It doesn't HAVE to come from the taxpayer. I just partake in the raising taxes debate because taxing the rich has shown no aggregate effects on growth and productivity.

If it was up to me people should know by now that I support a job guanatee bill that replaces unemployment insurance and welfare.
How childish. Thank you, have a good afternoon.
 
How childish. Thank you, have a good afternoon.

Ah ad hominems, again, why do people debate if they keep on just believing what they want to believe?
 
The only word I ever use is aggregate demand.

Then you're ignoring altogether the reinforcing effect that the policies have on individual behavior, and had no basis for objecting to the other post that regarded "help" as a reward. It's easier to support your statements if you will only look at it through a short-term macroeconomic theoretical lens, and ignore long-term cultural and behavioral unintended consequences.

A more honest response than saying "It is because you view "help" as a reward, it isn't." would have been to instead say "I don't what it rewards, the only goal is stimulate aggregate demand by any means necessary."
 
Then you're ignoring altogether the reinforcing effect that the policies have on individual behavior, and had no basis for objecting to the other post that regarded "help" as a reward. It's easier to support your statements if you will only look at it through a short-term macroeconomic theoretical lens, and ignore long-term cultural and behavioral unintended consequences.

A more honest response than saying "It is because you view "help" as a reward, it isn't." would have been to instead say "I don't what it rewards, the only goal is stimulate aggregate demand by any means necessary."
Behavioral economic theories are for the most part defunct in proof and don't hold true in reality.

"Behavioral economists Dan Airely and Nobel laureate Daniel Khaneman have uncovered strong evidence that rational decision making is often an illusion. That is not say people don’t behave differently when considering money issues. Dan Ariely found that just thinking about money makes people more selfish, self-reliant and less charitable."

Financial Services, Gambling, & Behavioral Economics: Busting The Myth Of Consumer Rationality | GreenBook
 
Behavioral economic theories are for the most part defunct in proof and don't hold true in reality.

"Behavioral economists Dan Airely and Nobel laureate Daniel Khaneman have uncovered strong evidence that rational decision making is often an illusion. That is not say people don’t behave differently when considering money issues. Dan Ariely found that just thinking about money makes people more selfish, self-reliant and less charitable."

Financial Services, Gambling, & Behavioral Economics: Busting The Myth Of Consumer Rationality | GreenBook

Again with sweeping dismissals to protect your theories. One study eradicates all relevance of behavioral economics?

Critics have pointed out that behavioral economics is not a unified theory, but is instead a collection of tools or ideas. This is true. It is also true of neoclassical economics. A worker might rely on a "single" tool-- say, a power drill-- but also use a wide range of drill bits to do various jobs. Is this one tool or many? As Arrow (1986) pointed out, economic models do not derive much predictive power from the single tool of utility-maximization. Precision comes from the drill bits—such as time-additive separable utility in asset pricing including a child's utility into a parent’s utility function to explain bequests, rationality of expectations for some applications and adaptive expectations for others, homothetic preferences for commodity bundles, price-taking in some markets and game-theoretic reasoning in others, and so forth.

For example, one recent model (Benabou & Tirole, 1999) derives overconfidence from hyperbolic time discounting. Agents, at time 0, face a choice at time 1 between a task that requires an immediate exertion of effort and a payoff delayed till time 2 which depends on their level of some skill. Agents know that, due to hyperbolic time discounting, some tasks that are momentarily attractive at time 0 will become unattractive at time 1. Overconfidence arises because they persuade themselves that their skill level – i.e., the return from the task – will be greater than it actually will be so as to motivate themselves to do the task at time 1. There may, however, be far more plausible explanations for the same phenomenon, such as that people derive utility directly from self-esteem. Indeed the same authors later proposed precisely such a model (Benabou & Tirole, 2000).

Sometimes these specifications are even contradictory— for example, pure self-interest is abandoned in models of bequests, but restored in models of life-cycle savings; and risk-aversion is typically assumed in equity markets and risk-preference in betting markets. Such contradictions are like the "contradiction" between a Phillips-head and a regular screwdriver: They are different tools for different jobs. The goal of behavioral economics is to develop better tools that, in some cases, can do both jobs at once.

Economists like to point out the natural division of labor between scientific disciplines: Psychologists should stick to individual minds, and economists to behavior in games, markets, and economies. But the division of labor is only efficient if there is effective coordination, and all too often economists fail to conduct intellectual trade with those who have a comparative advantage in understanding individual human behavior. All economics rests on some sort of implicit psychology. The only question is whether the implicit psychology in economics is good psychology or bad psychology. We think it is simply unwise, and inefficient, to do economics without paying some attention to good psychology.

We should finally stress that behavioral economics is not meant to be a separate approach in the long run. It is more like a school of thought or a style of modeling, which should lose special semantic status when it is widely taught and used. Our hope is that behavioral models will gradually replace simplified models based on stricter rationality, as the behavioral models prove to be tractable and useful in explaining anomalies and making surprising predictions. Then strict rationality assumptions now considered indispensable in economics will be seen as useful special cases (much as Cobb-Douglas production functions or expected value maximization are now)—namely, they help illustrate a point which is truly established only by more general, behaviorally-grounded theory. LINK
 
Again with sweeping dismissals to protect your theories. One study eradicates all relevance of behavioral economics?

Did you read what I posted and what you then posted?

I said most behavioral economics are defunct, not all, so no I didn't eradicate all relevance of behavioral economists, in fact I posted theories on behavioral economics, lol.

Then you posted several paragraphs, one in which is in line with exactly what I posted:

"All economics rests on some sort of implicit psychology. The only question is whether the implicit psychology in economics is good psychology or bad psychology. We think it is simply unwise, and inefficient, to do economics without paying some attention to good psychology.....

Our hope is that behavioral models will gradually replace simplified models based on stricter rationality, as the behavioral models prove to be tractable and useful in explaining anomalies and making surprising predictions."

It essentially says that behavioral economics is useless in modeling unless we track it and find it to be true.
 
so you combat people leaving because of austerity with an anecdotal article of a single couple leaving because of the housing crisis.
You came to a war with a bow and arrow against me, who has satellites and drones. Not gonna win this one bud.
Oh lordy.

Individual rights are a bow and arrow against your satellites and drones which are the greater good.
No kidding! The power is lopsided, that's why we have ****ing minority rights and insist government PROTECTS those rights. Good lord man, you're winning the war for me! Even though that had nothing to do with my specific argument above, I'm glad you made that point.

Once again, do you want to remove the freedom of everyone, anyone who wants to leave Spain to pursue economic opportunity elsewhere?
Or are you suggesting increasing taxes on people who don't want to pay more, and don't want to pay for that reason, and basically pay them to stay?

Who put the Spanish people in the Euro, and ensured they could not manage their money the same way the U.S. does?
Who allowed the Spanish housing bubble to grow, and bust?
And who do you think should bear the burden of correcting that?
And if you think the wealthy bear that burden, despite their objection, do you think taxing them is as fair as when government bails out comapnies and dictates terms and gets ownership?

Your one-liner responses that aren't even relevant to the arguments are hardly analagous to orbital guns. You're dodging, as usual. I took the time to type clear questions, you can clearly respond in turn. And, why did you bring up Spain? It's about the U.S. tax system. You of all people should know comparing different nations is not apples to apples, ad naseum. If there were not better economic oportunities, people may not leave spain under similar conditions. This is the argument in the U.S. often, sure it's bad, but everwhere else it's worse.
 
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Oh lordy.

Individual rights are a bow and arrow against your satellites and drones which are the greater good.
Okay let's start here. I never once said or implied removing or limiting individual rights for the greater good.
 
Sure but he seems to clearly be talking about tax rates in the 80 to 90% range.
Going from a tax rate of 35 to 40% at $400K might not dissuade further investment but going to 90% certainly would. A 90% tax rate is effectively an income cap and it is not really in anyone's best interest to continue working once you hit that tax rate.
At 90% you end up making about the same amount of money whether you make exactly $379K or $679K.
It really isn't even worth while to go from $379K to $1M with that tax rate.
Who said the top tax rate had to start at $379K? What if that top rate is at 1 Billion? Why are we arguing in the fringe so much? Why is our system progressive up until $388K? What is so magical about that number?

I speak as a man who lives below the poverty line, I am "the poor", and I say tax everyone by the same rate. I enjoy the same freedoms as Donald Trump, and so I should be taxed at the same rate.
Same rate? I don’t understand this argument at all yet it is a common theme of those that oppose any sort of variable rate tax. Let me repeat very loud and clear: THERE IS NOTHING INHERENTLY FAIR IN A PERCENTAGE! It’s just the result of a mathematical operation. What about the ratio of hours worked to income gained? If you really need this math to believe this than a progressive system is fair – Donald trump pays the same tax on his first 30k as you do – at least he should, but he probably pays less thanks to our regressive system. It’s fair because at one time Donald trump also only made 30k a year and was subject to the same rate you are now. Why the heck is everybody leaving out time as a variable?
If you want to favor anyone, then favor veterans, police, fire and emt. Favor married couples and foster parents. Civil service should be rewarded by the state, poverty should not.
Done. Now also favor care givers, engineers and physicists that solve our problems, research biologists that cure our diseases, teachers that give us a 21st century workforce, etc, etc – these are all professions that are underpaid because what they do doesn’t immediately turn money into more money. Every city in the country is laying off the people you list so we can continue to stick with creating a top heavy society in the 30 year hope that it will start trickling down. I wouldn't stop there, I'd like my garbage man to earn more too - i'm pretty darn sure he's at the top end of the marginal propensity to consume and this is a consumption starved economy.

And the rich aren't worthy of being free to make that rational choice for themselves?
It is now and always will be, people like you declaring they know best, and as a result, others, whose money you want, must therefore give up ther freedoms to you...for the greater good.
I don't want your help. You can help me by not taking my earnings. That falls on deaf ears though right?
Mach, I don’t know how many outs I can give you before you can debate beyond this silly desert island of perfect liberty argument. I gave you a grand father clause for those that are currently wealthy. I begged that we stopped looking at the change itself and looked at the system (from birth until death). If anything the opposite applies – in the 1980’s we were told, “trust us, it will all trickle down and we’ll all be better off” – I’m sick of waiting and now I’d like to UNDO that mistake. I’m perfectly happy to accept an alternative system if somebody can make a decent argument against the OP.
Again with sweeping dismissals to protect your theories. One study eradicates all relevance of behavioral economics?
I suppose we could try coming up with solid reasons to support an alternative tax system instead? Anyone?
 
It all depends on at which point, progressive taxation becomes a significant disincentive to productivity.


progressive taxes were mainly designed as a power grab by congress

buy many votes with handouts while only pissing off a small number of the voters --those who are paying most of the bills
 
I honestly just assumed the foolishness of using examples from WW II and earlier was just self-evident.

I suppose there is no real way to prove how poorly thought out of an idea it is unless implemented but we can make a pretty educated guess by the behavior of French high earners looking to leave their country over just *talking* about raising taxes or looking at a manufacturing sector that has completely disappeared in the United States.

there is a reason that Monte Carlo had the finest tennis team in the world when Sweden and Germany had confiscatory tax rates.
 
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