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Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

sangha

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I have gone through the discussion thread concerning the Preamble and pulled out all of the Preambles that various members have suggested (listed below). This thread is for a final discussion of these suggestions before we actually vote on a Preamble and by final suggestion, I mean

1) Statements by the writers of preambles explaining what the words of their preamble mean

2) Questions to the writers of preambles asking what the words of their preamble mean and the writers responses to those questions

3) The submission of new suggestions for those who have yet to post their suggestion

Here are the suggestions that have been made so far. If anyone's suggestion has been left out, please let me know

​Vasuderatorrent's suggestion:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


Bigfoot88's suggestion:
We the citizens of the sovereign States, in order to accomplish together what is more difficult apart, do authorize a consensual union of limited powers, codified by this Constitution of the United States of America.


Sangha's suggestion:
We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, to establish equal treatment and protection under the law for all, to insure peace among its citizens, to provide for the national defense and security of our nation, to promote the prosperity, safety and health of its' citizens, and to secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


AlbqOwl suggestion:
We the people, in order to ensure peaceful cooperation and commerce between the various sovereign states, provide the common defense, promote justice and the general welfare without prejudice or favoritism, and secure the unalienable rights and blessings of liberty for every citizen, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.


jet57 suggestion
We The People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish equal justice; insure and protect domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote and ensure the general welfare of all of our citizens, promote the arts and sciences and secure the blessings of our equal liberty and freedoms for all our citizens and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States.


gdgyva suggestion
We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, establish Equity under the law, provide for the national defense of our nation, promote the general welfare for all citizens, and secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


ernst barkmann suggestion
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general Welfare of that Union, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


rabbitcaebannog suggestion

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union and to insure domestic tranquility shall establish justice, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


Federalist suggestion
We, the peoples of the ratifying states, in order to form a voluntary union, do establish this constitution for a federation to be known as The United States of America.
 
29A said:
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.....
 
We seem to have too many suggestions but some that are close to each other in wording. Is there an opportunity to get this down to 3-4 options to then vote on?
 
My favorite, but with one sticking point
Sangha's suggestion:
We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, to establish equal treatment and protection under the law for all, to insure peace among its citizens, to provide for the national defense and security of our nation, to promote the prosperity, safety and health of its' citizens, and to secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
I believe this to be a bit off
safety and health of its' citizens, and to secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens,
why not
safety and health, and to secure liberty for our citizens,
meaning, all citizen, current and future?
I don't understand the need to emphasize "future" citizen.

Thank you
 
We seem to have too many suggestions but some that are close to each other in wording. Is there an opportunity to get this down to 3-4 options to then vote on?

Yes, many are similar but differences of a word or two can be meaningful and significant. In the previous thread, there was a lot of discussion about the various suggestions. I suggest referring to that along with comparing the suggestions against each other and deciding on the one which best suits you

Here's a link to the previous thread

http://www.debatepolitics.com/dp-co...nstitutional-convention-preamble-w-425-a.html
 
My favorite, but with one sticking point

I believe this to be a bit off

why not
safety and health, and to secure liberty for our citizens,
meaning, all citizen, current and future?
I don't understand the need to emphasize "future" citizen.

Thank you

I don't see it as emphasizing future citizens. It merely states that this constitution is meant to benefit both current and future citizens.

However, I think you're right and that "to our citizens..." should be "for our citizens..."

Consider it changed to
We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, to establish equal treatment and protection under the law for all, to insure peace among its citizens, to provide for the national defense and security of our nation, to promote the prosperity, safety and health of its' citizens, and to secure liberty for ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
 
Yes, many are similar but differences of a word or two can be meaningful and significant. In the previous thread, there was a lot of discussion about the various suggestions. I suggest referring to that along with comparing the suggestions against each other and deciding on the one which best suits you

Here's a link to the previous thread

http://www.debatepolitics.com/dp-co...nstitutional-convention-preamble-w-425-a.html

I am aware of the other thread, and it illustrates well my point.

At some point we will have to narrow this list down by thinking of those small differences, make decisions on merging a few or outright eliminating a few from consideration. Else, we risk groups if us working on different versions that overtime could take us further apart. All of that speaks volumes to the form of government we go with.
 
I am aware of the other thread, and it illustrates well my point.

At some point we will have to narrow this list down by thinking of those small differences, make decisions on merging a few or outright eliminating a few from consideration. Else, we risk groups if us working on different versions that overtime could take us further apart. All of that speaks volumes to the form of government we go with.

When we vote, it will be a runoff vote which will narrow down the list.

Also, anyone who has suggested a preamble is free to collaborate with another contributor to merge their suggestions into one in order to get more votes (by not splitting the votes)
 
When we vote, it will be a runoff vote which will narrow down the list.

Also, anyone who has suggested a preamble is free to collaborate with another contributor to merge their suggestions into one in order to get more votes (by not splitting the votes)

Why not just say that, and spell it out in the OP?
 
When we vote, it will be a runoff vote which will narrow down the list.

Also, anyone who has suggested a preamble is free to collaborate with another contributor to merge their suggestions into one in order to get more votes (by not splitting the votes)

Will we have to vote for one or can we list our top three (or whatever number?)
 
The internet is writing a new constitution for the USA. I'm totally sure this will end well.
 
How very witty. I'm sure your sarcastic remark will help out considerably.

Please don't play the role of a moderator in this forum. That's my job

The internet is writing a new constitution for the USA. I'm totally sure this will end well.

Please don't play the role of a troll in this forum. That too, is my job
 
Please don't play the role of a troll in this forum. That too, is my job
You trolled yourself in post #2. If you don't use elected representatives, then really this 'game' amounts to nothing.

But other people have already told you that.
 
Sangha thinks my ideas are important. :D
 
I don't see it as emphasizing future citizens.
And the founders of the real constitution didn't see "promote the general welfare" as being national healthcare.

The people are corrupted and so no matter what wording is chosen, it will be twisted.
 
I don't see it as emphasizing future citizens. It merely states that this constitution is meant to benefit both current and future citizens.

However, I think you're right and that "to our citizens..." should be "for our citizens..."

Consider it changed to

The one thing missing there is "in order to create a more perfect union."

Don't want another civil war with states trying to secede and run away from said union after having signed up to join. You never know, with MARS soon to be colonized we may have more states.

At that point my hope is that we provide enough comfort and liberty that they don't want to rebel, but at the same time, we give them the chance to become a state or not. Once you become a state of the USA, outside of a successful revolution that bond is permanent, not to be taken lightly.
 
The Preamble was written in the last days of the Convention, by the Committee of Style: Alexander Hamilton, William Samuel Johnson, Rufus King, James Madison, and Gouverneur Morris. The wording was not discussed by the body of delegates, and seemed to be largely an afterthought.

So again why are we determined to write the damn thing first? And why the hell do people want to change the most famous 52 words of American history?

The fact that you guys want to change the preamble alarms me. It tells me that you dont believe in Americanism, that you want sweeping changes (based on the rough drafts and the discussions). I will be blunt, I believe in Americanism, and will steadfastly stand in the way of sweeping changes to our Constitution. Above all I am a patriot, a believer in the preamble, in the Constitution, A Constitutionalist. I believe that the Constitution could use some modernizing not disrespected and thrown on the floor and trampled as if it were no good.

Self serving fantasies of partisan hackery will never create anything good, only conflict. The acceptance of diversity of thought can be exploited for the greater good of society. We the people make up a ever expanding variety of thought, of ideas, culture and beliefs. When we work together to expand this diversity we do great things as a nation. Each of us as individuals have a toe in society, contributing to it, supplying society with the means of progress, and compassion. We take the best of the ideas provided through compromise realizing that we all have to live together. Our sacrifices are rewarded with societal tranquility, justice, liberty and freedom.
 
And the founders of the real constitution didn't see "promote the general welfare" as being national healthcare.

The people are corrupted and so no matter what wording is chosen, it will be twisted.

How would the founders know exactly how the people would define "promote the general welfare"? ...the fact is they did not.

They expressly did not attempt to define the ideals of the preamble because it is up to each generation to define.

How would the founders ever have imagine the Great Depression and the state of the Union in those days? Or the Civil War?

Mistakes were made and mistakes were learned..."A More perfect Union".


EDIT> I did not realize this thread was y'alls Constitutional Convention Thread. I apologize and bow out.
 
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The Preamble was written in the last days of the Convention, by the Committee of Style: Alexander Hamilton, William Samuel Johnson, Rufus King, James Madison, and Gouverneur Morris. The wording was not discussed by the body of delegates, and seemed to be largely an afterthought.

So again why are we determined to write the damn thing first? And why the hell do people want to change the most famous 52 words of American history?

The fact that you guys want to change the preamble alarms me. It tells me that you dont believe in Americanism, that you want sweeping changes (based on the rough drafts and the discussions). I will be blunt, I believe in Americanism, and will steadfastly stand in the way of sweeping changes to our Constitution. Above all I am a patriot, a believer in the preamble, in the Constitution, A Constitutionalist. I believe that the Constitution could use some modernizing not disrespected and thrown on the floor and trampled as if it were no good.

Self serving fantasies of partisan hackery will never create anything good, only conflict. The acceptance of diversity of thought can be exploited for the greater good of society. We the people make up a ever expanding variety of thought, of ideas, culture and beliefs. When we work together to expand this diversity we do great things as a nation. Each of us as individuals have a toe in society, contributing to it, supplying society with the means of progress, and compassion. We take the best of the ideas provided through compromise realizing that we all have to live together. Our sacrifices are rewarded with societal tranquility, justice, liberty and freedom.

Please read the OP. This thread isn't about whether we are going to write a preamble. That was determined by a vote. If you are so passionate about the outcome and consequences of that vote, maybe you should have voted in the poll (which you did not).
 
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