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Thread: Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

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    re: Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Booth View Post
    Sorry. But really? You're a troll? Call me crazy, but I find that a little hard to believe.
    He's trying to usurp you!!

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    re: Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

    The Preamble was written in the last days of the Convention, by the Committee of Style: Alexander Hamilton, William Samuel Johnson, Rufus King, James Madison, and Gouverneur Morris. The wording was not discussed by the body of delegates, and seemed to be largely an afterthought.

    So again why are we determined to write the damn thing first? And why the hell do people want to change the most famous 52 words of American history?

    The fact that you guys want to change the preamble alarms me. It tells me that you dont believe in Americanism, that you want sweeping changes (based on the rough drafts and the discussions). I will be blunt, I believe in Americanism, and will steadfastly stand in the way of sweeping changes to our Constitution. Above all I am a patriot, a believer in the preamble, in the Constitution, A Constitutionalist. I believe that the Constitution could use some modernizing not disrespected and thrown on the floor and trampled as if it were no good.

    Self serving fantasies of partisan hackery will never create anything good, only conflict. The acceptance of diversity of thought can be exploited for the greater good of society. We the people make up a ever expanding variety of thought, of ideas, culture and beliefs. When we work together to expand this diversity we do great things as a nation. Each of us as individuals have a toe in society, contributing to it, supplying society with the means of progress, and compassion. We take the best of the ideas provided through compromise realizing that we all have to live together. Our sacrifices are rewarded with societal tranquility, justice, liberty and freedom.
    "There is nothing I dread So much, as a Division of the Republick into two great Parties, each arranged under its Leader, and concerting Measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble Apprehension is to be dreaded as the greatest political Evil, under our Constitution." - John Adams

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    re: Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    And the founders of the real constitution didn't see "promote the general welfare" as being national healthcare.

    The people are corrupted and so no matter what wording is chosen, it will be twisted.
    How would the founders know exactly how the people would define "promote the general welfare"? ...the fact is they did not.

    They expressly did not attempt to define the ideals of the preamble because it is up to each generation to define.

    How would the founders ever have imagine the Great Depression and the state of the Union in those days? Or the Civil War?

    Mistakes were made and mistakes were learned..."A More perfect Union".


    EDIT> I did not realize this thread was y'alls Constitutional Convention Thread. I apologize and bow out.
    Last edited by 1750Texan; 12-14-14 at 12:01 PM.


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    re: Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by 1750Texan View Post
    .....
    You can still just delete the whole post as if it never were.

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    re: Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    The Preamble was written in the last days of the Convention, by the Committee of Style: Alexander Hamilton, William Samuel Johnson, Rufus King, James Madison, and Gouverneur Morris. The wording was not discussed by the body of delegates, and seemed to be largely an afterthought.

    So again why are we determined to write the damn thing first? And why the hell do people want to change the most famous 52 words of American history?

    The fact that you guys want to change the preamble alarms me. It tells me that you dont believe in Americanism, that you want sweeping changes (based on the rough drafts and the discussions). I will be blunt, I believe in Americanism, and will steadfastly stand in the way of sweeping changes to our Constitution. Above all I am a patriot, a believer in the preamble, in the Constitution, A Constitutionalist. I believe that the Constitution could use some modernizing not disrespected and thrown on the floor and trampled as if it were no good.

    Self serving fantasies of partisan hackery will never create anything good, only conflict. The acceptance of diversity of thought can be exploited for the greater good of society. We the people make up a ever expanding variety of thought, of ideas, culture and beliefs. When we work together to expand this diversity we do great things as a nation. Each of us as individuals have a toe in society, contributing to it, supplying society with the means of progress, and compassion. We take the best of the ideas provided through compromise realizing that we all have to live together. Our sacrifices are rewarded with societal tranquility, justice, liberty and freedom.
    Please read the OP. This thread isn't about whether we are going to write a preamble. That was determined by a vote. If you are so passionate about the outcome and consequences of that vote, maybe you should have voted in the poll (which you did not).
    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I don't have any issue with any investigation.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I have gone through the discussion thread concerning the Preamble and pulled out all of the Preambles that various members have suggested (listed below). This thread is for a final discussion of these suggestions before we actually vote on a Preamble and by final suggestion, I mean

    1) Statements by the writers of preambles explaining what the words of their preamble mean

    2) Questions to the writers of preambles asking what the words of their preamble mean and the writers responses to those questions

    3) The submission of new suggestions for those who have yet to post their suggestion

    Here are the suggestions that have been made so far. If anyone's suggestion has been left out, please let me know

    ​Vasuderatorrent's suggestion:
    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


    Bigfoot88's suggestion:
    We the citizens of the sovereign States, in order to accomplish together what is more difficult apart, do authorize a consensual union of limited powers, codified by this Constitution of the United States of America.


    Sangha's suggestion:
    We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, to establish equal treatment and protection under the law for all, to insure peace among its citizens, to provide for the national defense and security of our nation, to promote the prosperity, safety and health of its' citizens, and to secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


    AlbqOwl suggestion:
    We the people, in order to ensure peaceful cooperation and commerce between the various sovereign states, provide the common defense, promote justice and the general welfare without prejudice or favoritism, and secure the unalienable rights and blessings of liberty for every citizen, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.


    jet57 suggestion
    We The People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish equal justice; insure and protect domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote and ensure the general welfare of all of our citizens, promote the arts and sciences and secure the blessings of our equal liberty and freedoms for all our citizens and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States.


    gdgyva suggestion
    We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, establish Equity under the law, provide for the national defense of our nation, promote the general welfare for all citizens, and secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


    ernst barkmann suggestion
    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general Welfare of that Union, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


    rabbitcaebannog suggestion

    We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union and to insure domestic tranquility shall establish justice, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


    Federalist suggestion
    We, the peoples of the ratifying states, in order to form a voluntary union, do establish this constitution for a federation to be known as The United States of America.
    I like a lot of these! Jet has a provision around promoting arts & science - would like to see that incorporated in some of the others - maybe in Sangha's?

    (I have a hard time voting for any suggestion with "blessings" in it - Sangha's avoids that but has lots of other good stuff)

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    re: Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    We seem to have too many suggestions but some that are close to each other in wording. Is there an opportunity to get this down to 3-4 options to then vote on?
    The main difference is between those that believe the government knows what is good for the citizens and those that do not mention the pursuit of happiness at all. That is rather startling. Basically most of the proposals are socialist and want the government pursuing the citizens happiness and not the citizens themselves.

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    re: Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I have gone through the discussion thread concerning the Preamble and pulled out all of the Preambles that various members have suggested (listed below). This thread is for a final discussion of these suggestions before we actually vote on a Preamble and by final suggestion, I mean

    1) Statements by the writers of preambles explaining what the words of their preamble mean

    2) Questions to the writers of preambles asking what the words of their preamble mean and the writers responses to those questions

    3) The submission of new suggestions for those who have yet to post their suggestion

    Here are the suggestions that have been made so far. If anyone's suggestion has been left out, please let me know

    ​Vasuderatorrent's suggestion:
    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


    Bigfoot88's suggestion:
    We the citizens of the sovereign States, in order to accomplish together what is more difficult apart, do authorize a consensual union of limited powers, codified by this Constitution of the United States of America.


    Sangha's suggestion:
    We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, to establish equal treatment and protection under the law for all, to insure peace among its citizens, to provide for the national defense and security of our nation, to promote the prosperity, safety and health of its' citizens, and to secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


    AlbqOwl suggestion:
    We the people, in order to ensure peaceful cooperation and commerce between the various sovereign states, provide the common defense, promote justice and the general welfare without prejudice or favoritism, and secure the unalienable rights and blessings of liberty for every citizen, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.


    jet57 suggestion
    We The People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish equal justice; insure and protect domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote and ensure the general welfare of all of our citizens, promote the arts and sciences and secure the blessings of our equal liberty and freedoms for all our citizens and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States.


    gdgyva suggestion
    We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, establish Equity under the law, provide for the national defense of our nation, promote the general welfare for all citizens, and secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


    ernst barkmann suggestion
    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general Welfare of that Union, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


    rabbitcaebannog suggestion

    We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union and to insure domestic tranquility shall establish justice, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


    Federalist suggestion
    We, the peoples of the ratifying states, in order to form a voluntary union, do establish this constitution for a federation to be known as The United States of America.
    I don't see any preamble among the proposals that is even close to as good as the one of the US Constitution.

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    re: Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    The Preamble was written in the last days of the Convention, by the Committee of Style: Alexander Hamilton, William Samuel Johnson, Rufus King, James Madison, and Gouverneur Morris. The wording was not discussed by the body of delegates, and seemed to be largely an afterthought.

    So again why are we determined to write the damn thing first? And why the hell do people want to change the most famous 52 words of American history?

    The fact that you guys want to change the preamble alarms me. It tells me that you dont believe in Americanism, that you want sweeping changes (based on the rough drafts and the discussions). I will be blunt, I believe in Americanism, and will steadfastly stand in the way of sweeping changes to our Constitution. Above all I am a patriot, a believer in the preamble, in the Constitution, A Constitutionalist. I believe that the Constitution could use some modernizing not disrespected and thrown on the floor and trampled as if it were no good.

    Self serving fantasies of partisan hackery will never create anything good, only conflict. The acceptance of diversity of thought can be exploited for the greater good of society. We the people make up a ever expanding variety of thought, of ideas, culture and beliefs. When we work together to expand this diversity we do great things as a nation. Each of us as individuals have a toe in society, contributing to it, supplying society with the means of progress, and compassion. We take the best of the ideas provided through compromise realizing that we all have to live together. Our sacrifices are rewarded with societal tranquility, justice, liberty and freedom.


    what people are trying to do is define a new preamble to fit their idea.

    1 some, want it to be inclusive of the people, ensure their health, and prosperity.

    2 others want it to maintain its external powers of securing and managing the union as a whole.
    Last edited by Master PO; 12-14-14 at 02:56 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    Despite its reputation as a liberal stronghold, San Francisco has actually been run by a small cadre of fiercely right wing libertarian technocrats for many years.

  10. #30
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    re: Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I don't see any preamble among the proposals that is even close to as good as the one of the US Constitution.
    Umm, the first one *is* the one in the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    The main difference is between those that believe the government knows what is good for the citizens and those that do not mention the pursuit of happiness at all. That is rather startling. Basically most of the proposals are socialist and want the government pursuing the citizens happiness and not the citizens themselves.
    By my count, 5 of 9 were submitted by right wingers.
    Last edited by sangha; 12-14-14 at 04:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I don't have any issue with any investigation.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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