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Thread: what kind of constitution do you wish to create...National or Federal.

  1. #111
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    Re: what kind of constitution do you wish to create...National or Federal.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You should go back further in the discussion. The claim was, and I believe it was you, was the RKBA was a check on the govt and I responded that with a standing army of professional soldiers, the RKBA does nothing to check the govt. That's when you brought up the "if the army was ordered to attack US citizens"

    From the context (we were talking about people with guns, remember), it wouldn't be ordinary citizens going about their business that the army would be ordered to take action against - it would be the people who had guns and were using them to attack the govt

    as far as the govt attacking people who were not attacking the govt, and were just going about their business - that's just "crazy talk". Why in the world would the govt just attack people who were not threatening the govt? And how does the 2nd prevent that?

    The answers are "It wouldn't" and "if it did, and the army refused, then that would prove that it wasn't the 2nd that provided a check on govt"
    My point is that for some hypothetical political group usurped power in our government and became a dictatorship. And the people resisted and revolted, large sections of the military would also be on the peoples side since our military are not robots. Our military is made of ordinary Americans our neighbors and families. So your scenario about not being able to the US military is misguided bs.

    Of course if some militia nuts decided to have a armed revolution it would go nowhere. Any damn fool can see that. But that wasnt what I was talking about despite what you are attempting to make it look like. I am here for honest debate not this bs of you trying to make me say what you want me to have said. But that is your debate style so I expected nothing less. That doesnt mean that I have to let you do it though.

  2. #112
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    Re: what kind of constitution do you wish to create...National or Federal.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Lol. Apparently any mention of hypothetical resistance to a fictional oppressive US government leads to a canned argument attacking Libertarians/militias nut jobs.

    The fact is that our government indeed is not oppressive, and our Constitution enumerated gun rights. ANd the fact that you wish to write away gun rights in this fantasy constitution shows why it is a fools errand to write a new constitution (in reality).
    We have amended the constitution over the years. That it contains gun rights was relevant then, not relevant now. The 2nd amendment is not really guaranteeing us anything re protecting ourselves from the govt., as Sangha has pointed out.
    Last edited by paddymcdougall; 12-19-14 at 11:14 AM.

  3. #113
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    Re: what kind of constitution do you wish to create...National or Federal.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    . ANd the fact that you wish to write away gun rights in this fantasy constitution shows why it is a fools errand to write a new constitution (in reality).

    I'm sorry - did you think we were writing a new constitution that would be adopted by the USA? That's not the purpose of this exercise. We are attempting this as an interesting exercise to see if a random group of people on a forum could work together and come up with a constitution.

    If you don't want to participate, you don't have to. If you think it is a "fool's errand", then you are free to not come on this errand with us.

  4. #114
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    Re: what kind of constitution do you wish to create...National or Federal.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    My point is that for some hypothetical political group usurped power in our government and became a dictatorship. And the people resisted and revolted, large sections of the military would also be on the peoples side since our military are not robots. Our military is made of ordinary Americans our neighbors and families. So your scenario about not being able to the US military is misguided bs.
    If the military would not assist a dictator and instead take the side of the people, then you've explained why the 2nd amend is useless in protecting against a dictatorship. The wannabee dictator would fail, not because ordinary citizens have guns, but because the military would not support the dictator.

    Of course if some militia nuts decided to have a armed revolution it would go nowhere. Any damn fool can see that. But that wasnt what I was talking about despite what you are attempting to make it look like. I am here for honest debate not this bs of you trying to make me say what you want me to have said. But that is your debate style so I expected nothing less. That doesnt mean that I have to let you do it though.
    Actually it was what we were talking about. We weren't talking about a wannabee dictator ordering the military to attack civilians who were not rebelling.
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  5. #115
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    Re: what kind of constitution do you wish to create...National or Federal.

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    We have amended the constitution over the years. That it contains gun rights was relevant then, not relevant now. The 2nd amendment is not really guaranteeing us anything re protecting ourselves from the govt., as Sangha has pointed out.
    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    I'm sorry - did you think we were writing a new constitution that would be adopted by the USA?

    That's not the purpose of this exercise. We are attempting this as an interesting exercise to see if a random group of people on a forum could work together and come up with a constitution.

    If you don't want to participate, you don't have to. If you think it is a "fool's errand", then you are free to not come on this errand with us.
    Lets see... this forum is in the game section of DB, did I think that it was going to be officially adopted? Now thats funny.

  6. #116
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    Re: what kind of constitution do you wish to create...National or Federal.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    If the military would not assist a dictator and instead take the side of the people, then you've explained why the 2nd amend is useless in protecting against a dictatorship. The wannabee dictator would fail, not because ordinary citizens have guns, but because the military would not support the dictator.
    AH but why hasnt a dictator taken over? It is because of the fact that the US Constitution was so well written that while intact there can be no take over. ANd that our culture forbids and is willing to fight against such a usurping of power. The 2nd Amendment offers a philosophical meaning that permeates American culture with a will to stop nobility and wannabe dictators. So yes you are correct no one really needs to fire a shot at anyone. No one actually needs to remove their guns from their homes for the threat to work. Because once we make it to the point of resistance, whoever was in office at the time would be a idiot to think that Americans would just let them get away with it.


    Actually it was what we were talking about. We weren't talking about a wannabee dictator ordering the military to attack civilians who were not rebelling.
    Really and here I thought that we were discussing the poll?

  7. #117
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    Re: what kind of constitution do you wish to create...National or Federal.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    AH but why hasnt a dictator taken over? It is because of the fact that the US Constitution was so well written that while intact there can be no take over. ANd that our culture forbids and is willing to fight against such a usurping of power.
    Yes, but not with guns. Our constitution is so well written that fighting with guns is not only unnecessary, it is superflous.

    The 2nd Amendment offers a philosophical meaning that permeates American culture with a will to stop nobility and wannabe dictators. So yes you are correct no one really needs to fire a shot at anyone. No one actually needs to remove their guns from their homes for the threat to work. Because once we make it to the point of resistance, whoever was in office at the time would be a idiot to think that Americans would just let them get away with it.
    No, it's not the 2nd Amend that creates the will to stop dictatorships. And if no one needs to fire a shot, then the 2nd doesn't provide any checks on govt.

    The people do.
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  8. #118
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    Re: what kind of constitution do you wish to create...National or Federal.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes, but not with guns. Our constitution is so well written that fighting with guns is not only unnecessary, it is superflous.


    No, it's not the 2nd Amend that creates the will to stop dictatorships. And if no one needs to fire a shot, then the 2nd doesn't provide any checks on govt.

    The people do.
    FFS I didnt say that the 2nd Amendment alone does ****. Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

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