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Thread: Pre-convention discussion: bill of rights, right to keep and bear arms

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    Pre-convention discussion: bill of rights, right to keep and bear arms

    This is likely to be a major sticking point, and where I will depart from other liberal minded individuals.

    Anyway this is my proposed text for a right to bear arms provision

    Article 2
    1)the right of the individual to bear arms in defense of himself and of the state and for hunting and lawful recreation shall not be abridged
    A) "Abridged " is defined as any law, regulation or scheme of laws and regulations likely to discourage an individual from choosing to exercise the rights of this article
    B) "Arms " means any device intended for use as a weapon that is capable of being employed by a single person
    2) nothing in this article shall be construed as prohibiting regulations on the commercial sale or criminal use, or possession by individuals adjudicated as a danger to others either by criminal conviction or mental defect, provided said regulations do not violate section 1 of this article.
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 12-05-14 at 01:02 AM.
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    Re: Pre-convention discussion: bill of rights, right to keep and bear arms

    I prefer to limit the national government to it's designated powers (assuming we agree to limit it) and leave out a Bill of Rights altogether.
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    Re: Pre-convention discussion: bill of rights, right to keep and bear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    This is likely to be a major sticking point, and where I will depart from other liberal minded individuals.

    Anyway this is my proposed text for a right to bear arms provision

    Article 2
    1)the right of the individual to bear arms in defense of himself and of the state and for hunting and lawful recreation shall not be abridged
    A) "Abridged " is defined as any law, regulation or scheme of laws and regulations likely to discourage an individual from choosing to exercise the rights of this article
    B) "Arms " means any device intended for use as a weapon that is capable of being employed by a single person
    2) nothing in this article shall be construed as prohibiting regulations on the commercial sale or criminal use, or possession by individuals adjudicated as a danger to others either by criminal conviction or mental defect, provided said regulations do not violate section 1 of this article.
    While I like some of it, there are other parts that are troubling, namely section #2.

    'Regulations' & 'adjudicated as a danger to others either by criminal conviction or mental defect' is extremely dangerous vernacular to have attached to a Constitutional value of the right to bear arms. Regulated and enforced by whom? Adjudicated to be a danger or mentally defect by whom? What kind of criminal convictions?

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    Re: Pre-convention discussion: bill of rights, right to keep and bear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    This is likely to be a major sticking point, and where I will depart from other liberal minded individuals.

    Anyway this is my proposed text for a right to bear arms provision

    Article 2
    1)the right of the individual to bear arms in defense of himself and of the state and for hunting and lawful recreation shall not be abridged
    A) "Abridged " is defined as any law, regulation or scheme of laws and regulations likely to discourage an individual from choosing to exercise the rights of this article
    B) "Arms " means any device intended for use as a weapon that is capable of being employed by a single person
    2) nothing in this article shall be construed as prohibiting regulations on the commercial sale or criminal use, or possession by individuals adjudicated as a danger to others either by criminal conviction or mental defect, provided said regulations do not violate section 1 of this article.
    Counter proposal: "Congress shall make no law respecting the right of the people to keep and bear arms".

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    Re: Pre-convention discussion: bill of rights, right to keep and bear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Counter proposal: "Congress shall make no law respecting the right of the people to keep and bear arms".
    The congress, the states, or any other government entity, may make no law respecting the right of the people, and the states to keep and bear arms. There is one exception. The congress and ONLY the congress may restrict certain types of arms by law specifically weapons of mass destruction such as nuclear type bombs, exceptionally lethal chemicals, and exceptionally lethal biological weapons. Mass destruction defined as the ability to kill 1000 people simultaneously or so close to simultaneously as to be irrelevant. They must identify the particular arms type closely, and the law may not go into effect without 3/4s vote by congress with a presidential signature and ratification of 3/4's of the states of the union. Further these restrictions will continually sunset every 10 years. In any case personal arms types in common use by militaries shall not be any way restricted except by jury trial.
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    Re: Pre-convention discussion: bill of rights, right to keep and bear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    The congress, the states, or any other government entity, may make no law respecting the right of the people, and the states to keep and bear arms. There is one exception. The congress and ONLY the congress may restrict certain types of arms by law specifically weapons of mass destruction such as nuclear type bombs, exceptionally lethal chemicals, and exceptionally lethal biological weapons. Mass destruction defined as the ability to kill 1000 people simultaneously or so close to simultaneously as to be irrelevant. They must identify the particular arms type closely, and the law may not go into effect without 3/4s vote by congress with a presidential signature and ratification of 3/4's of the states of the union. Further these restrictions will continually sunset every 10 years. In any case personal arms types in common use by militaries shall not be any way restricted except by jury trial.
    I don't see where I gave room for exceptions.

    This thread is about the text of the amendment itself, and as you can see I very clearly did not include anything about WMDs in the text of the Amendment.

    Everything you're talking about revolves around the range and scope of the right I'm talking about. SCUTUS will need to chime in as it did with the Heller decision and inform everyone that WMDs are the equivalent of yelling 'fire' in a theater and thus are beyond the right to keep and bear arms.

    The WMD issue is a simple matter. My wording of the text is to ward against incremental erosion through assault-weapon bans, machine gun bans, NICS checks, the need to have a permit, etc.

    Once you call something an "exception", you open the door to all "exceptions" and in a couple hundred years the right is whittled down to single-shot shotguns strictly for sport.
    Last edited by Jerry; 12-05-14 at 06:54 AM.

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    Re: Pre-convention discussion: bill of rights, right to keep and bear arms

    Now we are getting far off in the weeds. I think my definition of arms clearly excludes weapons of mass distruction, as all existing WMD platforms, require multiple people to effectively use.
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    Re: Pre-convention discussion: bill of rights, right to keep and bear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Now we are getting far off in the weeds. I think my definition of arms clearly excludes weapons of mass distruction, as all existing WMD platforms, require multiple people to effectively use.
    Your definition of arms includes suitcase nukes and all manor of missiles and explosives which one person can deploy such as stinger missiles and hand grenades. Check yourself before criticizing others.

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    Re: Pre-convention discussion: bill of rights, right to keep and bear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Your definition of arms includes suitcase nukes and all manor of missiles and explosives which one person can deploy such as stinger missiles and hand grenades. Check yourself before criticizing others.
    But not a nuclear weapons system, at least not a western developed one they require authorization from a commander to use, and multiple people to arm, that section can be further clarified, but making 15 lines of text about WMDs when no one in their right mind is advocating unfettered ownership of suitcase nukes is unessecary. We can already technically legally own grenades and missiles....
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    Re: Pre-convention discussion: bill of rights, right to keep and bear arms

    I can see that things are going well here.
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