The Nice Guy Syndrome

MrWonka said:

But that's just the point. Men don't actually do that. Women just convince themselves that men are trying to do that in order to justify not liking them. Men learn at a very early age that women don't sleep with you because you're nice. If all you want to do is get laid you're better off projecting dominance and confidence. So when are trying to be excessively nice to a girl it isn't because they're trying to get laid. Or at least it's not because they're trying to ONLY get laid. They do it because of they legitimately like a girl and want something long term. They believe themselves to be in love whether they are or not.

The guys who are trying to manipulate a woman into sex are the ones who are intentionally not nice. In the PUA world, it's called negging. They treat a woman poorly to ruin herself confidence and get her looking up to him. Sadly a lot of younger more insecure women judge their own personal value relative to the way men treat them. If a man treats them like a princess she thinks he is a desperate doormat who is beneath her. If a guy treats a woman like **** she thinks he must be a really impressive guy who is above her and therefore someone she should be after.

Most women grow out of this a bit as they mature, but it seems like every woman has to date at least three complete **** heads before she starts figuring it out.

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I get what you're saying. But whether the goal is to "get laid" or "want something long term" the fact remains that there is a goal. "Getting laid" is no less honorable a pursuit than "looking for something long term." The dishonor is not in the end goal, it is the tactics used to get there. Either way, if the reason you are being nice is because you want something (anything, regardless of what it is,) you are being manipulative. Even if you want what's best for someone. It may be that you believe that what you want will be mutually beneficial to her. It may even be objectively true that a long term relationship with you would be good for her. But the mere fact that this is the motive behind your behavior makes your behavior manipulative and a turn off. In my experience, most women want to date a nice guy, but they are at best suspicious of the stereotypical "nice guy" who is looking to earn her affections.

I would argue that "legitimately like" and "want something" are difficult to reconcile. The more you can divorce yourself of an end goal and learn to accept and even enjoy things as they are, the less you will be perceived as "the nice guy" or "white knight" and the more you will be perceived simply as a nice guy.

lwf said:

I get what you're saying. But whether the goal is to "get laid" or "want something long-term" the fact remains that there is a goal. "Getting laid" is no less honorable a pursuit than "looking for something long term."

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WTF?!?!?! Umm...yeah...yeah is. It's a lot different. It's WAY WAY WAY different. It's the difference between genuinely being in love with someone, and just using them for fun without any regard for their feelings.

lwf said:

The dishonor is not in the end goal, it is the tactics used to get there.

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Tactics aren't irrelevant, but the end goal is always always more important.

lwf said:

Either way, if the reason you are being nice is because you want something (anything, regardless of what it is,) you are being manipulative.

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When your dog sits for a treat is he manipulating you or are you manipulating him?

Is it possible to teach your child to be a good person at all? If your child only behaves because he believes it's what society wants him to do and it will improve the quality of life is he a bad child who is just manipulating the world?

If you sign a loan agreement and make your payments every month are you manipulating the bank into not taking you to court or are you just doing what you're supposed to do?

If a child takes a math test and answers the question 2+2=4 correctly is he manipulating the teacher into giving him a good grade?

lwf said:

Even if you want what's best for someone. It may be that you believe that what you want will be mutually beneficial to her. It may even be objectively long-term long term relationship with you would be good for her. But the mere fact that this is the motive behind your behavior makes your behavior manipulative and a turn off.

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Sorry, but this is some ****ed up mental gymnastics you're doing here. By your logic every single solitary thing that every person in history has ever done for another person is nothing but "manipulation" done for the purposes of getting what they want.

lwf said:

In my experience, most women want to date a nice guy, but they are at best suspicious of the stereotypical "nice guy" who is looking to EARN her affections.

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The word EARN and the word MANIPULATE are basically antonyms. Manipulating someone into doing what you want is a shortcut. If you're trying to earn someone's affections you're by definition not manipulating them. You're fullfilling your obligation as a potential boyfriend.

lwf said:

I get what you're saying. But whether the goal is to "get laid" or "want something long term" the fact remains that there is a goal. "Getting laid" is no less honorable a pursuit than "looking for something long term." The dishonor is not in the end goal, it is the tactics used to get there. Either way, if the reason you are being nice is because you want something (anything, regardless of what it is,) you are being manipulative. Even if you want what's best for someone. It may be that you believe that what you want will be mutually beneficial to her. It may even be objectively true that a long term relationship with you would be good for her. But the mere fact that this is the motive behind your behavior makes your behavior manipulative and a turn off. In my experience, most women want to date a nice guy, but they are at best suspicious of the stereotypical "nice guy" who is looking to earn her affections.

I would argue that "legitimately like" and "want something" are difficult to reconcile. The more you can divorce yourself of an end goal and learn to accept and even enjoy things as they are, the less you will be perceived as "the nice guy" or "white knight" and the more you will be perceived simply as a nice guy.

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I like a combination of the two. Negging can come with a carrot. One can say "You're just a slum girl, let me show you how real people live." When you take her to the nicest restaurant in the area, her sense of amazement and feeling small combined put her in a state that she will go along with almost anything you want.

This could also be done without leaving the country: One could tell some selected college co-eds "You're too stupid to make it through college, let me do it for you."

MrWonka said:

WTF?!?!?! Umm...yeah...yeah is. It's a lot different. It's WAY WAY WAY different. It's the difference between genuinely being in love with someone, and just using them for fun without any regard for their feelings.

Tactics aren't irrelevant, but the end goal is always always more important.

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Looking to get laid doesn't necessarily imply a lack of regard for someone else's feelings. People who are just looking for fun pair up all the time without any hurt feelings. Honesty is all it takes, just like it is all that's required when you're looking for a long term relationship. Deception is when feelings get hurt, and the end goal of the deception is almost always irrelevant to the person being deceived, at least in my experience.

MrWonka said:

Is it possible to teach your child to be a good person at all? If your child only behaves because he believes it's what society wants him to do and it will improve the quality of life is he a bad child who is just manipulating the world?

If you sign a loan agreement and make your payments every month are you manipulating the bank into not taking you to court or are you just doing what you're supposed to do?

If a child takes a math test and answers the question 2+2=4 correctly is he manipulating the teacher into giving him a good grade?

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The answer to your first question is no, in that he is not a bad child by learning to follow rules to get what he wants or avoid consequences. Manipulating others isn't necessarily being a bad person. If the sole reason you obey the law is to avoid the consequences, I wouldn't call you a bad person. But neither would I call you an attractive person, in my personal opinion.

The answer to the last two questions is yes. Answering math questions correctly isn't "being nice." Neither is paying your bills. It is doing what you are supposed to be doing in order to avoid the consequences. This is proper behavior. But surely you agree that doing what's expected of you for fear of the consequences doesn't make a person the slightest bit interesting. Doing something nice for someone without an agenda DOES make a person interesting. Finding out later that there was an agenda not only instantly kills any interest I had in the person, it also makes me feel like I was duped. Uninteresting, and makes me feel stupid: Not a good look for the person who I originally thought was nice.

MrWonka said:

Sorry, but this is some ****ed up mental gymnastics you're doing here. By your logic every single solitary thing that every person in history has ever done for another person is nothing but "manipulation" done for the purposes of getting what they want.

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How do you figure? That's the opposite of what I'm saying. Doing something nice for someone by definition is not manipulation. Doing something for someone with the intention of earning a favor is by definition not nice.

MrWonka said:

The word EARN and the word MANIPULATE are basically antonyms. Manipulating someone into doing what you want is a shortcut. If you're trying to earn someone's affections you're by definition not manipulating them. You're fullfilling your obligation as a potential boyfriend.

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I respectfully disagree on that. I think the notion that you have to earn someone's affections is misguided. When you're making friends with another guy are you attempting to earn his friendship? Or are you simply getting to know one another? If you become friends, have you succeeded in your quest to turn him into your friend? Or did the two of you simply click and mutually decide to hang out on a regular basis? If it is the obligation of a potential boyfriend to earn a woman's affections, wouldn't a potential girlfriend have the same responsibility to earn your affections? If so, who is the one doing the earning and who is the one who decides whether the other has done enough to warrant affection? If not, why are you putting her on a pedestal? She's no better than you are, and you're no better than she is.

This is where "nice guys," "white knights," and "incels," go astray. Don't get caught up in the whole "she's out of my league" nonsense. There are no leagues. Being nice is important. But the only way to actually be nice is to forget about an end goal and just get to know her. A good way to practice this is to work on coming to terms with the notion that "whatever happens, I'm going to be perfectly fine. Whether she ends up with someone else, or whether she doesn't end up with anyone at all, I'm going to live my life and, if she's worth it, she's welcome to be a part of it in whatever capacity she wants." And in the mean time, meet other women and practice the same mantra with them.

SDET said:

I like a combination of the two. Negging can come with a carrot. One can say "You're just a slum girl, let me show you how real people live." When you take her to the nicest restaurant in the area, her sense of amazement and feeling small combined put her in a state that she will go along with almost anything you want.

This could also be done without leaving the country: One could tell some selected college co-eds "You're too stupid to make it through college, let me do it for you."

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I thought a "neg" was a backhanded compliment? Like "I find you weirdly fascinating." Those are just pompous insults. If those work for you, the women you date have some low standards.

Wan said:

Hello. Questions for the ladies on this board: have you ever met a "Nice Guy"? If so, how did you deal with him and more importantly, why did you feel the way you did towards him?

Questions for the guys: do you think you are, or used to be, a nice guy? And do you feel that being nice is truly a handicap or has it actually increased your chances at having a successful relationship?

I am a woman and I have not met too many nice guys. I did friendzone a few people but because I had so few friends to begin with, I cannot say with any degree of authority on this matter.

Let's share our thoughts.

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I was not born a nice guy. I was not a totally nice guy as a kid. I was not totally nice as a teen. But I found Jesus and He has been making me nicer now for more than 45 years.

I know many Christians who are better people year by year due to Jesus' influence in their lives.

lwf said:

Looking to get laid doesn't necessarily imply a lack of regard for someone else's feelings.

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But manipulating them in order to get them into bed does. If all you're looking for is a one night stand that's fine, but you should be upfront about it.

lwf said:

The answer to the last two questions is yes. Answering math questions correctly isn't "being nice." Neither is paying your bills. It is doing what you are supposed to be doing in order to avoid the consequences.

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That's not how manipulation works. Manipulation is a shortcut to getting what you want without giving the other person what they want. If the only thing the teacher wants is for you to show them that you know the answer to the question 2+2=4 then you're not manipulating them you're doing what is expected of you in order to earn the grade.

lwf said:

But surely you agree that doing what's expected of you for fear of the consequences doesn't make a person the slightest bit interesting. Doing something nice for someone without an agenda DOES make a person interesting. Finding out later that there was an agenda not only instantly kills any interest I had in the person, it also makes me feel like I was duped. Uninteresting, and makes me feel stupid: Not a good look for the person who I originally thought was nice.

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This is really the problem with so much of this whole hatred of nice guys. So often a man is nice to a woman because he is in love with her and wants a long-term relationship with her. She, however, doesn't find the man particularly attractive and assumes that his failure to "make a move" and do some of the standard things she's used to guys doing when they want to get laid is an indication that the guy just wants to be friends and he genuinely likes her as a person.

Down the road, though the man does eventually make the move. When she then breaks his heart and he no longer wants to be around her she takes that as an indication that the man never liked her as a person and didn't really want to be friends. Since her refusal to sleep with him made him not want to hang out with her anymore she believes he was only interested in Sex. This isn't true. He did like her as a person and as a friend. In fact, he was in love with her and wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. When she rejected him it broke his heart and made it too painful to go back to the way things were.

From his perspective, it was no different than if they had dated for months or years only to have her break up with him. From her perspective, they were always just friends and so nothing should change, but she doesn't fully understand how he felt about her. It's not her fault for not understanding that, but it's not really his fault for falling in love either. It's true that the guy probably should have said or done something sooner. That's a mistake that many men make, but it's not an evil mistake it's an honest one.\

lwf said:

How do you figure? That's the opposite of what I'm saying. Doing something nice for someone by definition is not manipulation. Doing something for someone with the intention of earning a favor is by definition not nice.

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Depends on what you consider a "favor." If we go out to a bar and I buy you a drink I'm not necessarily expecting you to buy me one back. But if we go out to a bar every week, and every week I buy the first round, and you never buy the second round eventually I'm going to say your a dick who's not holding up your end of the bargain.

I don't care what anybody says or thinks. When you're nice to someone you're doing it with the expectation of getting something in return. It may not be immediate, it may not be equal, but if relationships aren't mutually beneficial then they will not continue, and ending a relationship that isn't mutually beneficial doesn't mean you were manipulating the other person into doing things for you.

lwf said:

I respectfully disagree on that.

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Then you are wrong, and there's really nothing else to say about that.

MrWonka said:

That's not how manipulation works. Manipulation is a shortcut to getting what you want without giving the other person what they want.

This is really the problem with so much of this whole hatred of nice guys. So often a man is nice to a woman because he is in love with her and wants a long-term relationship with her. She, however, doesn't find the man particularly attractive and assumes that his failure to "make a move" and do some of the standard things she's used to guys doing when they want to get laid is an indication that the guy just wants to be friends and he genuinely likes her as a person.

Down the road, though the man does eventually make the move. When she then breaks his heart and he no longer wants to be around her she takes that as an indication that the man never liked her as a person and didn't really want to be friends. Since her refusal to sleep with him made him not want to hang out with her anymore she believes he was only interested in Sex. This isn't true. He did like her as a person and as a friend. In fact, he was in love with her and wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. When she rejected him it broke his heart and made it too painful to go back to the way things were.

From his perspective, it was no different than if they had dated for months or years only to have her break up with him. From her perspective, they were always just friends and so nothing should change, but she doesn't fully understand how he felt about her. It's not her fault for not understanding that, but it's not really his fault for falling in love either. It's true that the guy probably should have said or done something sooner. That's a mistake that many men make, but it's not an evil mistake it's an honest one.

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It's hard to give the other person what they want when you don't really know what they want. Maybe the issue at hand is that nice guys presume to know what the woman wants? When they give it to her and expect something in return, they don't recognize this as manipulation because they honestly believe she is getting what she wants. By your definition of manipulation, if in reality she is not getting what she wants, and a man whom she thought was her friend suddenly abandons her because she isn't giving him what he wants in return, she has been emotionally manipulated, even though this was never his intent.

I fully agree that this is an honest mistake and not an evil one. And I think we agree that the solution is honest communication. There are plenty of women who intentionally manipulate nice guys as well. Not all women are worth the effort of friendship. In fact, I find that the majority women I meet are not worth the effort of cultivating an emotional relationship with. This doesn't mean they aren't worth honesty, kindness, and dignity, however. My intent wasn't to blame nice guys, it was to point out a way to avoid a common mistake that often leads to the friend zone, and to suggest a good way to handle oneself if you find yourself there.

MrWonka said:

I don't care what anybody says or thinks. When you're nice to someone you're doing it with the expectation of getting something in return. It may not be immediate, it may not be equal, but if relationships aren't mutually beneficial then they will not continue, and ending a relationship that isn't mutually beneficial doesn't mean you were manipulating the other person into doing things for you.

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I don't argue with that. Friendship is give and take. If you're taking more than you give or giving more than you take, the friendship won't last long. I think the "nice guy syndrome" occurs when one party (in this case the guy, but it happens just as often to women) values what they are giving away more than the party receiving it. The solution, of course, is to not give away something you value to someone who doesn't similarly value it and pretend to want nothing in return. If you continue to do so with the hope that eventually the recipient will have a change of heart and give you something of hers that you value highly, you are not being nice you are being foolish. If you now believe that the recipient owes you a particularly valuable item in exchange for goods freely given that you valued much more than she does, she will have every right to become indignant and accuse you of manipulation. You may not have been intentionally manipulating her, but her feelings of being manipulated by a deceptive guy are absolutely entirely warranted.

In any case, I think we can agree that honest communication can help us avoid these misunderstandings and prevent us from wasting our time with people who don't value what we have to offer.

MrWonka said:

But manipulating them in order to get them into bed does. If all you're looking for is a one night stand that's fine, but you should be upfront about it.

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Western women are a quantum leap more manipulative that men. Communicating some vague but noncommittal chance for sex to get some benefit is commonplace. Those benefits can include: dinners, help moving, help studying, gifts, being an emotional tampon, etc., etc., etc. That's one reason why I wonder if a quid-pro-quo sex for tutoring arrangement would be possible nowadays. Women can get spoonfed knowledge by stringing along some beta guy and give absolutely nothing in return. "Adopt an airhead" is hard work. I'm amazed that some guys do it for nothing nowadays.

This song sums it up nicely:

SDET said:

Western women are a quantum leap more manipulative than men.

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That does not excuse men's behavior.

SDET said:

Communicating some vague but noncommittal chance for sex to get some benefit is commonplace. Those benefits can include: dinners, help to move, help studying, gifts, being an emotional tampon, etc., etc., etc.

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This is called friendship. It generally goes both ways. The problem is that you see helping someone move as a fair trade for a blow job instead of helping you move the next time you have to. When I help a buddy move he usually buys me a 12 pack of beer or a bottle of bourbon. I don't expect him to let me cum on his tits.

When sex is done properly it is a fair trade in and of itself. Women enjoy sex, and if you want to sleep with a woman the only thing you should offer her is the pleasure of sleeping with you. If that's not good enough then you should work on figuring out how to make that offer seem better not trying to make up for the fact that you're ugly by lifting her couch.

lwf said:

It's hard to give the other person what they want when you don't really know what they want. Maybe the issue at hand is that nice guys presume to know what the woman wants? When they give it to her and expect something in return, they don't recognize this as manipulation because they honestly believe she is getting what she wants.

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If they honestly believe they are giving her what she wants then it is not by definition manipulation.

lwf said:

By your definition of manipulation, if in reality she is not getting what she wants, and a man whom she thought was her friend suddenly abandons her because she isn't giving him what he wants in return, she has been emotionally manipulated,

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This is not remotely my definition of manipulation. This is generally a miscommunication and the fault often lies with both parties who then attack each other for it. Each side not believing themselves to be deserving of such an attack obviously takes it out on the other person which is the crux of this whole silly "debate."

MrWonka said:

That does not excuse men's behavior.


This is called friendship. It generally goes both ways. The problem is that you see helping someone move as a fair trade for a blow job instead of helping you move the next time you have to. When I help a buddy move he usually buys me a 12 pack of beer or a bottle of bourbon. I don't expect him to let me cum on his tits.

When sex is done properly it is a fair trade in and of itself. Women enjoy sex, and if you want to sleep with a woman the only thing you should offer her is the pleasure of sleeping with you. If that's not good enough then you should work on figuring out how to make that offer seem better not trying to make up for the fact that you're ugly by lifting her couch.

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Most women 25 or younger generally consider men twice their age as ugly. That's just reality. When a guy is young and smart, the chicks his age generally want football players. Getting friendzoned is a ripoff, in other words, a one sided deal. Guys shouldn't stand for it.

SDET said:

Most women 25 or younger generally consider men twice their age as ugly. That's just reality. When a guy is young and smart, the chicks his age generally want football players. Getting friendzoned is a ripoff, in other words, a one sided deal. Guys shouldn't stand for it.

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It sounds like you're looking for someone to blame for your own failures in the dating department. It's more comfortable to blame everyone else in the world, but you'll never grow with that attitude and you'll never stop failing. Looking inward might be frightening, but you'll come out a stronger person on the other side.

lwf said:

It sounds like you're looking for someone to blame for your own failures in the dating department. It's more comfortable to blame everyone else in the world, but you'll never grow with that attitude and you'll never stop failing. Looking inward might be frightening, but you'll come out a stronger person on the other side.

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It pays to know what's on the menu. It cuts down on frustration. What's to blame? It's a matter of having a realistic view of one's options. It applies in the corporate setting as well. Don't pay your dues unless you get rights to use the golf course.

Josie said:

Completely disagree. I love nice guys -- I've only dated nice guys. I'd never be interested in anyone who isn't a nice guy. But there is a line between "nice guy" and "doormat". There are nice guys who aren't afraid to stand up for themselves or hold opposing opinions to their girl. There are nice guys who are confident, decision-makers and know how to compromise when there's a disagreement. Those aren't "TOO nice" guys.

TOO nice guys are doormats. They're puppy dogs. They will do anything and everything their girl says even if they disagree. They're afraid to stand up for themselves, afraid to voice a differing opinion and aren't good decision makers because they're constantly worried that, God forbid, their girl might disagree. They're insecure, therefore, they think they have to be a doormat in order to keep a relationship.

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Just to be fair - there's a kind of message out there that men aren't supposed to do this because we are overbearing and mansplaining when we do.

So, we kind of train boys not to be men, get mad at them when they are men, and then complain when they aren't.



-----Break / Break-------


Having spent almost the entirety of my growing up solidly in the Friend Zone, I observed a few things about Nice Guy Syndrome:


1. Yes, just being nice can put you on the short path to this - I have a good friend who specializes in this. He is a Marine, intelligent, wise beyond his years, funny, considerate, good, and a particularly effective member of a Special Operations unit.... and he can friendzone himself in 30 seconds or less, simply because his initial approach is honest, earnest, decency, and not Alpha. He was raised to think that a good man serves a woman, instead of trying to dominate her, and so that's what he tries to do, instead of taking charge. The only times I've ever seen him succeed even at first is when he decided he just didn't care about succeeding with the lady. As soon as it develops enough that he cares about whether or not it actually Becomes A Thing; it's over.

2. Physical attraction, however, plays a heavy role in pushing you in one direction or the other, as does the opinions of the girls friends. A guy who is funny, and charming, and self assured and chubby is friend-zoned as rapidly as a woman can be. We humans are physical, as well as spiritual beings, and the exact same personality means different things in different bodies.

3. Outside of that, one of the things that seems to turn women off from Nice Guys is Availability. I had one (1) very pretty young woman throw herself at me repeatedly while I was in college. I was incredibly attracted (physically) to her, but, I am fairly certain that the main reason she threw herself at me was that I did not take her up on her obvious offers. She had an on-again/off-again long-term boyfriend, and I didn't want to either be the guy she cheated on him with, or the rebound guy. That's an anecdote, rather than data, but I've heard variants of it enough (women are - generically and generally - like cats: they want your attention when they don't have it, and care less about it when they do) to generally trust the lesson.




The PUA types are overreacting to rejection by taking one truth and beating it to death, but there is a core nugget there - women generally want an Alpha. I mostly failed and failed and failed again....

....and then I came back a Marine. Fit, confident, a little swagger, a little dangerous, and in uniform (God Bless the Marine Corps Blues). First attractive (very attractive, I might add) girl I asked out said yes, even though the ask had an awkward moment (and, honestly, I hadn't really pinned a lot on it, it was on a bit of a dare from a buddy). Good thing, too. Because I was still at heart a "good guy", I was willing to care about her and willing to walk through crap to love her. I was fortunate in that her previous boyfriend was a manipulative asshole, and so maybe in that department standards were low. A couple of years later, we were wed. But it wasn't being a "Good Guy" that got me that chance to prove to her that one could be worth her time. The Good Guy bit came after the initial attraction, and that takes something different.

marke said:

I was not born a nice guy. I was not a totally nice guy as a kid. I was not totally nice as a teen. But I found Jesus and He has been making me nicer now for more than 45 years.

I know many Christians who are better people year by year due to Jesus' influence in their lives.

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The incredibly slow pace of Sanctification is, honestly, the long-term most incredibly frustrating and demoralizing thing I have come across. Sometimes I can pick up and look back over the years and see how I've gotten better, but man, I hope 45-year-journey me is a lot better than this current version.

SDET said:

Western women are a quantum leap more manipulative that men. Communicating some vague but noncommittal chance for sex to get some benefit is commonplace. Those benefits can include: dinners, help moving, help studying, gifts, being an emotional tampon, etc., etc., etc. That's one reason why I wonder if a quid-pro-quo sex for tutoring arrangement would be possible nowadays. Women can get spoonfed knowledge by stringing along some beta guy and give absolutely nothing in return. "Adopt an airhead" is hard work. I'm amazed that some guys do it for nothing nowadays.

This song sums it up nicely:

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Did you just post a video by Firefall? :lamo :lamo :lamo
What's next, Little River Band?

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Did you just post a video by Firefall? :lamo :lamo :lamo
What's next, Little River Band?

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I stopped listening to English language music some time ago. This one gets the point across even better if you have the intellectual wherewithal to figure out its meaning. Pay special attention to the phrase "que me chinga bien cabron".

You "stopped listening to English language music", oh how cute.
But auto-tuned crap is high on your list, I see.
Hey, you're the one who posted a song by a vapid 1980's group that was so horrible it probably figured prominently in ending the musical career of a Burrito Brother.
Every other member of the Burritos ascended to greatness, stopped only by death itself, but not Rick Roberts.
It's like being chief mechanic for Michael Schumacher and then suddenly deciding to work for Danica Patrick.

PS:
There are tons of songs in every language that talk about being serviced well.

ataraxia said:

I would agree that there has to be a balance of traits, with "niceness" as only one of them.

But a little advice for the guys: when trying to guage how nice to be, you have to try to read the mood and personality of the person you are trying to impress. Different types of personalities like slightly different mixes of niceness with other characteristics. And even the same person may have have vastly different tastes and preferences one day to the next. What would be seen as so gallant and kind one day to one person may seem clingy and overdone to another person on another day.

Go figure.

People, especially the female half of them, tend to be pretty complicated. Those who can't figure them out can try their hand at something simpler first, like advanced multidimensional particle physics or something.

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It took me years to prefect my balance. Being a bad boy or a jerk doesn’t come natural to me. Back then girls would have called me to nice. In my experience if your to nice you have a hard time opening the door. But if your to far to the other side you can’t seem to make the relationship last. But if you manage to find the right balance. Not only can you get women but you can keep them. But really what do I know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wan said:

Hello. Questions for the ladies on this board: have you ever met a "Nice Guy"? If so, how did you deal with him and more importantly, why did you feel the way you did towards him?

Questions for the guys: do you think you are, or used to be, a nice guy? And do you feel that being nice is truly a handicap or has it actually increased your chances at having a successful relationship?

I am a woman and I have not met too many nice guys. I did friendzone a few people but because I had so few friends to begin with, I cannot say with any degree of authority on this matter.

Let's share our thoughts.

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Honestly from an observational standpoint, I don't think women like nice guys. Anytime I've talked to a young lady or a woman who had got the eye of a nice guy she always said the same thing about him when I asked why she wouldn't date him.

"He's annoying."

I don't think women like pushovers and that seems to be what nice guys are. They make good friends but I I think the attraction is very low possibly even negative.

I consider myself a honest man. I can be nice at times but the way people describe me as kind-hearted or sweet. Neither one of those are nice per se.

Maybe the nice guys put on a facade to appear to be kind-hearted or sweet. Maybe that's why ladies think they are annoying.

I think it's the case that in general women are attracted to guys who are a challenge, mysterious, or brooding. Maybe because it is an adventure to try and figure them out. Maybe because he will stand up for himself, even if it costs him.

I'm not sure about any of this it's just my musings at the moment.

the advice I always give guys if they want to pick up women at the bars are various other places do not buy them drinks. Don't let them flirt you into buying them a drink. Once you've done that you showed them how easy you are.

Josie said:

I've only dated "nice guys" except for one mildly rude guy. There are nice guys and then there are TOO nice guys. Love the first -- can't stand the second one.

The nice guys I like are confident, chivalrous, not afraid to have a different opinion, honest, trustworthy, mature, loyal and decision makers.

The TOO nice guy is extremely clingy, wants me to make all of the decisions, is very insecure and usually easy to upset emotionally. There is not one thing sexy about a guy who is MORE emotional than I am and who can't make a decision. Ugh. Noooooo thank you.

Several years ago I encountered a super emotional guy. We exchanged photos, talked on the phone for a week or two and then met for a date. I knew from phone calls that I wasn't really all that interested, but I thought maybe in person it might be different. Nope. I still wasn't interested and I told him that later that evening. I was expecting a "Oh, that's a bummer. I had a great time, though!" But, no. The guy literally lost his damn mind. He said....paraphrasing.... "But I've shown your picture to all of my friends! We're perfect for each other!! Please reconsider! Please! We had such a connection --- we belong together! You're just scared of a relationship, aren't you? Please don't do this! Please!" Literally went on for 20 minutes or so. He was messaging me on Facebook and I was just staring at the screen in shock. Dude --- get a freakin' grip. We went on ONE date. Oy.

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Holy crap, I consider myself an emotional guy but that dude was Next level freaky.

One thing I found interesting was how you described that nice guy the one you loved. You said not afraid to have a different opinion, to the guy that stands his ground at least to some extent. Chivalrous always a good trait. I consider that to be good manners like holding a door open for you or something of that nature and then decision maker, as in not wishy-washy I presume.

It's interesting to me it's how you would describe a nice man, honesty chivalry good manners all those things are nice but a nice man they do not make. I would consider this a good-hearted man an honest man. Nice would be a secondary characteristic may even be a tertiary one.

So it seems like you kind of tend to go for guys that are independent sure of themselves are honest and have good manners.

I think to universal trait within all of these things is confidence.

Thanks for sharing and I hope you don't mind me offering my thoughts.

Winchester said:

My advice is to just be who you are and not try to gauge how nice to be. It'll either work or it won't. It's okay either way.

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I think it would work more often trying to gauge how nice you need to be. Because just being yourself takes confidence.

Wan said:

Hello. Questions for the ladies on this board: have you ever met a "Nice Guy"? If so, how did you deal with him and more importantly, why did you feel the way you did towards him?

Questions for the guys: do you think you are, or used to be, a nice guy? And do you feel that being nice is truly a handicap or has it actually increased your chances at having a successful relationship?

I am a woman and I have not met too many nice guys. I did friendzone a few people but because I had so few friends to begin with, I cannot say with any degree of authority on this matter.

Let's share our thoughts.

Click to expand...

Nice guys finish fast.

Wan said:

Hello. Questions for the ladies on this board: have you ever met a "Nice Guy"? If so, how did you deal with him and more importantly, why did you feel the way you did towards him?

Questions for the guys: do you think you are, or used to be, a nice guy? And do you feel that being nice is truly a handicap or has it actually increased your chances at having a successful relationship?

I am a woman and I have not met too many nice guys. I did friendzone a few people but because I had so few friends to begin with, I cannot say with any degree of authority on this matter.

Let's share our thoughts.

Click to expand...

My wife once told our daughter that if you wanted to find a good man and get married, dress and act like you're married. When I was young I was a bad boy around the bad girls, but I turned into a good man around good girls. I liked messing with the party girls, but I knew I wouldn't ever marry one. When I really thought about settling down, I frequented places with a better class of women. I joined the Sierra Club, volunteered at a couple of charities, and went to a few church socials. Just looking for a better class of female.