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Question for the guys

FreedomFromAll said:
We were physically female, but not genetically. The set of chromosomes are determined upon conception, but they don’t kick in until around six to eight weeks. In other words in the womb males were female because they had not developed enough yet to release the testosterone to activate the Y chromosome. But the key is that genetically a male is a male in the womb even though the Y chromosome has not been activated yet. Of course complications might disrupt that from happening, but the vast majority it works well.
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Is a male still a male if the y chromosome never activates? If they grew up female all their lives, but knew they have the y chromosome, would you still consider that deception?

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FreedomFromAll said:
You can and should protest being lied to (omitting information is also lying) especially in this situation. Perhaps you do not understand but, something like this happening to someone could have long lasting psychological effects. You could certainly sue for damages.
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I am going to disagree on the omitting part. You would have to prove that you had such a right to that knowledge as to compel another to reveal it to you before, if ever, they are ready to reveal. If you would never have sex with a woman who has had a tubal ligation, as would be your right to choose what is and isn't an issue for you, does that right compel her to volunteer on her own that information? If not then why is gender reassignment any different?

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maquiscat said:
Very interesting read. And I will agree that if you are directly lied to, then yes it would be rape by deception. With that said, we now have to ask do you have any right to know another person's gender or sexual history? You certainly have a right to ask, and a right to refuse your consent should they not give it when asked. But does any right you possess require that other person to volunteer information? So if you fail to ask if they were ever previously male, would it be rape by deception?

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Actually yes I do have the right to know if the person that I plan on screwing used to be the same sex as me. If we go by the OP we should have been well beyond that already.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Actually yes I do have the right to know if the person that I plan on screwing used to be the same sex as me. If we go by the OP we should have been well beyond that already.
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By what right do you get to know their medical history, especially if you don't ask? And even if you do ask you still have no right to the information. That they might be willing to share it by no means give you that right. Your rights are to inquire and to decide whether to proceed or not based upon the answers or lack thereof.

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maquiscat said:
No you don't need such, but the way you responded to the other, there was an impression that you were responding as though someone made such a claim.
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What can I say; you made a mistake?



W
hat proof do you have that such is the standard? Why does one need to be repulsed by the idea of sex with one of their own gender in order to be straight? Your sexual orientation is what sexually attracts you, not what repulses you. There are plenty of people who simply are not repulsed by the idea. Many are the straight porn actors, men and women, who will do gay porn, because they are not repulsed by it and then pay is good. Even among the every day people, you can easily find someone who when asked why they wouldn't have gay sex the answer is simply, "eh, it does nothing for me." but would also being willing to do so for incentive, such as money. But here is an article on the topic anyway.
Why Straight Men Have Sex With Each Other
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Of course there are always an exception to the rule; thanks for pointing out that minorities exist. But like most people in that realm you cannot use their existence to paint with a broad brush. I mean seriously the porn industry? Argh...

Anyways how do you know that those people are heterosexual and not something else? You gave me a link to what amounts to an opinion piece. Jane Ward, an associate professor of women’s studies at the University of California is a outspoken feminist. I am sure that she has all kinds of biased opinions that I do not need to waste my time on. lets check out her blog: Feminist Pigs " Feminist Pigs welcome to the queer feminist homestead" And her official site: scholarship for the feminist revolution - Jane Ward feminist queer professor and author of Not Gay and other sexuality studies books where she politely points out her biases.
 
maquiscat said:
By what right do you get to know their medical history, especially if you don't ask? And even if you do ask you still have no right to the information. That they might be willing to share it by no means give you that right. Your rights are to inquire and to decide whether to proceed or not based upon the answers or lack thereof.

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Point blankly anyone who I would have a relationship with should be overjoyed to share their story, if not they can **** off. Remember your rights end where others starts. In this case a transgender procedure is important enough that I have a right to know about it if I am in a relationship (like in the OP).

Relationships are a joint venture. If you are hiding that you are transgender, you are doing so solely for personal reasons which would be selfish at best. When a secret that big is purposely done to deceive their partner, what does that say about that person? It says that, that person is a very dishonest person. They have established themselves as manipulative and completely dishonest. Given the OP we can assume that the transgender person omitted the information in order to screw them. Once they got laid now they spill the beans? Again I assert that this is a form of sexual assault. Its obvious from the Op that they manipulated and lied (by omission) to have sex with someone who most likely would not have given consent had they known. Its textbook no consent sexual assault.
 
Wan said:
Let's imagine that you had sex with a "woman", and "she" only told you about her trans-ness after you had slept with her. What would your reaction be?

Let's be honest.
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Unless I wanted to have more children (which I don't) I'd be fine with it. If all parts are functional, what difference does it make?
 
FreedomFromAll said:
No one cares about birthmarks being removed its a stupid comparison. People do care about sticking their dick into a mans inverted penis. I can guess how most heterosexual males would think of that, and it makes me think that you have no clue what that would be. Such a realization could cost the person thousands of dollars on therapy sessions to deal will what could be considered PTSD. Let me point this out to you: heterosexuals should not be forced to have sex with transgender persons ever. Had the character in OP been aware of the situation it is likely (given their heterosexuality) that they would not have consented to sex with a transgendered person. No one has the right to force you to do something that you do not want to do. Lying/omitting information to get you to do something that you do not want to do, is coercion.

You may have consented to sex with a heterosexual person, but that person was not only not a heterosexual but purposely deceived you into thinking that they were heterosexual. Once you are aware that they are not heterosexual the consent that you gave before is no longer valid consent. You were tricked into sex by omitting what should have been information given willingly. Being tricked into sex is not consent. For more information on consent: Sexual assault | womenshealth.gov "Sometimes you cannot give legal consent to sexual activity or contact — for example, if you are:

Threatened, forced, coerced, or manipulated into agreeing"

The conditions in the OP can easily be said to be "manipulated into agreeing".
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I disagree. Can a woman sue a man she voluntarily had sex with if he told her he works in finance at a fortune 500 company when he actually works as a bank teller? Is this coercion? What if she ends up in therapy over it? Is he responsible for her bills? Can a man sue a woman he voluntarily had sex with because he sees her without makeup the next morning? Is this coercion? What if this leads to therapy sessions for the man? Is she responsible for his bills?

Lying your way into sex is immoral but not illegal, my friend, and omitting the truth about something that one could argue isn't even any of your business is common practice. You still have choice in the matter. And no matter how irrationally devastated you might personally feel after later finding out the beautiful woman you had consensual sex with had a Y chromosome, you have no grounds to sue.
 
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FreedomFromAll said:
Point blankly anyone who I would have a relationship with should be overjoyed to share their story, if not they can **** off. Remember your rights end where others starts. In this case a transgender procedure is important enough that I have a right to know about it if I am in a relationship (like in the OP).

Relationships are a joint venture. If you are hiding that you are transgender, you are doing so solely for personal reasons which would be selfish at best. When a secret that big is purposely done to deceive their partner, what does that say about that person? It says that, that person is a very dishonest person. They have established themselves as manipulative and completely dishonest. Given the OP we can assume that the transgender person omitted the information in order to screw them.
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I am with you up to this point. You have a right to feel betrayed by someone if they purposely lie to you in order to have sex with you.

FreedomFromAll said:
Once they got laid now they spill the beans? Again I assert that this is a form of sexual assault. Its obvious from the Op that they manipulated and lied (by omission) to have sex with someone who most likely would not have given consent had they known. Its textbook no consent sexual assault.
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This is not sexual assault. No measurable harm has been done to you. Think about it this way: If you had never found out the beautiful woman you had sex with had a Y chromosome, would any actual harm have been done?
 
lwf said:
I am with you up to this point. You have a right to feel betrayed by someone if they purposely lie to you in order to have sex with you.



This is not sexual assault. No measurable harm has been done to you. Think about it this way: If you had never found out the beautiful woman you had sex with had a Y chromosome, would any actual harm have been done?
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What I am asserting is that I m not fine with a transgender person lying to me to have sex with me, and according to the law that is a form of sexual assault.

The transgender person in the scenario in the OP can easily be assumed to have not told the other person about being transgender since doing so probably would have resulted in no consent to have sex. The evidence being that the transgender person then admitted to being transgender only after they had sex. The OP does not present an voluntary informed consent, the decision was not made by anyone other than the transgender person (they were the only one truly informed and thus maliciously hide information in order to have sex). That is called sexual assault.

You claim that "No measurable harm has been done to you" if a transgender person lies (omission is a form of lying) to have sex with you. How did you come to that conclusion? Did you consider the mental harm that such knowledge can have a person? You seem to be only projecting your own bias. Sure there are some people who would not care and more power to them. But for those who do care; what of their rights? Remember your rights stop where my rights begin. A transgender person has the right to their privacy. But they do not have the right to deceive their partner in order to have sex with them. Of course not all of the states have rape by deceit laws, but that does not bar civil lawsuits. Certainly it can be shown to be harmful to a persons mental condition. For many men waking up everyday and realizing that you has sex with some who used to be a man them self, cuts to the core of their personal inner self. It could certainly cause PTSD syndrome.
 
lwf said:
I disagree. Can a woman sue a man she voluntarily had sex with if he told her he works in finance at a fortune 500 company when he actually works as a bank teller? Is this coercion? What if she ends up in therapy over it? Is he responsible for her bills? Can a man sue a woman he voluntarily had sex with because he sees her without makeup the next morning? Is this coercion? What if this leads to therapy sessions for the man? Is she responsible for his bills?

Lying your way into sex is immoral but not illegal, my friend, and omitting the truth about something that one could argue isn't even any of your business is common practice. You still have choice in the matter. And no matter how irrationally devastated you might personally feel after later finding out the beautiful woman you had consensual sex with had a Y chromosome, you have no grounds to sue.
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Apples and oranges. You are comparing two ridiculous situations to one that is can especially serious to many people. I take it that you see no problem and would have sex with a transgender person, but that is your decision based on your own personal state of mind. Not all people are you and this may feel dramatically different than you. Stop pretending that everyone is as accepting of transgenderism as you are. Personally I do not care what adults want to do with their bodies as long as it does not involve me. If you want to become transgender whatever the hell I do not care, but once you lie to me to have sex I do care..a lot. You now involved me in something that I would never in a million ****ing years consent too, and you probably knew that since you lied in order to **** me.
 
Wan said:
Let's imagine that you had sex with a "woman", and "she" only told you about her trans-ness after you had slept with her. What would your reaction be?

Let's be honest.
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theres no one way to answer that.... it would vary per situation....

it would depend on the sex (type, when how, where etc)
it would depend on the relationship (long term, short term, hook up sex)

theres situations where i would be upset the information wasnt shared if it was a long term relationship etc.
theres situations where i might be impressed by the work done even though i have seen work you cant tell
theres situations where i basically wouldnt care if it was hook up sex because well...it would be pretty hypocritical.

:shrug:
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Sexual assault.
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again on what grounds?

Sexual assault refers to an assault of a sexual nature on another person. It can include a wide range of unwanted sexual contact such as rape, forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration, forced sexual intercourse, inappropriate touching, forced kissing, child molestation ,exhibitionism, voyeurism, obscene phone calls torture of a victim in a sexual manner etc. The actor causes submission of the victim by means that is reasonably calculated to cause submission against the victim's will. Definitions of offences are primarily governed by state criminal laws, which vary by state. It is generally a felony.
Sexual Assault Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.
 
Check the plumbing out before closing the deal.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
The transgender person lied in order have to have sex with me, that my friend is sexual assault. Its called rape by deception.
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LMAO ooooh so you are just going to make stuff up
you would need evidence of that . . .what if it never came up, what if there was no lie?
What if legally they transitioned already then what?

what if you are at a bar, you get to talking and you just hook up . . then what?

i know countless girls and guys that lied for sex . . none of them are in jail . . i wonder way . . . this is because of its still a mutual act and not a legally binding contract. If a person hooks up with you because you are related to <insert famous person here> and you are really not the changes of that being sexual assault based on legality are slim to none.

by your logic, 50% of high school and college guys are guilty of felony rape. Good luck!
 
AGENT J said:
it?
sue her for what?

what crime?
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For damages.

AGENT J said:
again on what grounds?

Sexual assault refers to an assault of a sexual nature on another person. It can include a wide range of unwanted sexual contact such as rape, forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration, forced sexual intercourse, inappropriate touching, forced kissing, child molestation ,exhibitionism, voyeurism, obscene phone calls torture of a victim in a sexual manner etc. The actor causes submission of the victim by means that is reasonably calculated to cause submission against the victim's will. Definitions of offences are primarily governed by state criminal laws, which vary by state. It is generally a felony.
Sexual Assault Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.
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On grounds that consent was not valid.

AGENT J said:
LMAO ooooh so you are just going to make stuff up
you would need evidence of that . . .what if it never came up, what if there was no lie?
What if legally they transitioned already then what?

what if you are at a bar, you get to talking and you just hook up . . then what?

i know countless girls and guys that lied for sex . . none of them are in jail . . i wonder way . . . this is because of its still a mutual act and not a legally binding contract. If a person hooks up with you because you are related to <insert famous person here> and you are really not the changes of that being sexual assault based on legality are slim to none.

by your logic, 50% of high school and college guys are guilty of felony rape. Good luck!
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Well those are not only ignorant comparisons but I would have to be a moron to go there again. I mean if we are going to do such things I could then point out lying about HIV by omission before sex is a crime.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
1.) For damages.
2.) On grounds that consent was not valid.
3.) Well those are not only ignorant comparisons but I would have to be a moron to go there again.
4.) I mean if we are going to do such things I could then point out lying about HIV by omission before sex is a crime.
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1.) what damages you have to prove some based on legality . . not hopes dreams wishes and feelings
2.) again based on what ground, you will need proof based on legality and it will have to be major proof
3.) actually they are spot on :shrug: just cause you FEEL they are different doesnt make it so
4.) now THAT has nothign to do with this

why didnt you answer my questions?
what if it never came up, what if there was no lie?
What if legally they transitioned already (legally female)then what?
what if you are at a bar, you get to talking and you just hook up . . then what?

when you can actually answer my questions let me know. Its not that theres ZERO scenarios that could be "invented" where a case could be made its that in THIS case it doesnt seem like you have anything sound or logical. Let me know. Nothing that wouldnt end up putting tons of people in jail. lol thanks
 
AGENT J said:
1.) what damages you have to prove some based on legality . . not hopes dreams wishes and feelings
2.) again based on what ground, you will need proof based on legality and it will have to be major proof
3.) actually they are spot on :shrug: just cause you FEEL they are different doesnt make it so
4.) now THAT has nothign to do with this

why didnt you answer my questions?
what if it never came up, what if there was no lie?
What if legally they transitioned already (legally female)then what?
what if you are at a bar, you get to talking and you just hook up . . then what?

when you can actually answer my questions let me know. Its not that theres ZERO scenarios that could be "invented" where a case could be made its that in THIS case it doesnt seem like you have anything sound or logical. Let me know. Nothing that wouldnt end up putting tons of people in jail. lol thanks
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Lmao


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AGENT J said:
1.) what damages you have to prove some based on legality . . not hopes dreams wishes and feelings
2.) again based on what ground, you will need proof based on legality and it will have to be major proof
3.) actually they are spot on :shrug: just cause you FEEL they are different doesnt make it so
4.) now THAT has nothign to do with this

why didnt you answer my questions?
what if it never came up, what if there was no lie?
What if legally they transitioned already (legally female)then what?
what if you are at a bar, you get to talking and you just hook up . . then what?

when you can actually answer my questions let me know. Its not that theres ZERO scenarios that could be "invented" where a case could be made its that in THIS case it doesnt seem like you have anything sound or logical. Let me know. Nothing that wouldnt end up putting tons of people in jail. lol thanks
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So what you are asserting is that transgenderism trumps heterosexuality? Now before you go all nuts with the homophobic crap and pretend that I am some far right bigot or some ****, just do not, since none of that applies to me.

why didnt you answer my questions?
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Because they were stupid?

what if it never came up, what if there was no lie?
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What do you mean by never come up? If there was no lie then the scenario in the OP didnt happen.

What if legally they transitioned already (legally female)then what?
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The legality of transgenderism is not in play here...at all.

what if you are at a bar, you get to talking and you just hook up . . then what?
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Then what, what? If you have any integrity at all any real moral compass the first thing that a transgender person should do is tell a perspective partner that they are transgender. If you want to set the advances in acceptance to transgenderism back severely then go ahead and promote that concept of transgenders lying about their transgenderism to obtain sex. Seriously the more that this idea of lying about your own transgenderism is promoted the more that people will have resentment about transgenderism and perhaps stigmatize transgender people more.

I have the right to know who I am sleeping with. I should not have to be forced to do something that I do not want to do, because you chose to lie about it or withheld the information. My personal disgust of sleeping with a transgender person is not your to dictate away. It is my sexual preference not to **** transgender persons and what makes me an heterosexual that you are attacking. Let me make this clear: my choices are mine not yours. Who I am sexually interested in is not anyone elses choice but mine. If I were on a date and the person revealed that they trans then fine, that does not change my opinion of the person, it just means that sex is out of the question. I see nothing wrong with transgenderism, i just do not want to sleep with them. And I do not want them to lie to me to sleep with me. If that were to happen I would feel violated and would probably end up needing to seek mental help from professionals. You can laugh all that you want in your bigoted way but it will not change the fact that I am disgusted at the thought of sex with a transgender person. Its just like telling a homosexual that they should have sex with the opposite sex; its wrong. Like it or not people like me exist and there will never anything that you can do to make us not exist. I was born this way.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
1.) So what you are asserting is that transgenderism trumps heterosexuality? Now before you go all nuts with the homophobic crap and pretend that I am some far right bigot or some ****, just do not, since none of that applies to me.
2.)Because they were stupid?
3.) What do you mean by never come up? If there was no lie then the scenario in the OP didnt happen.
4.)The legality of transgenderism is not in play here...at all.
5.)Then what, what? If you have any integrity at all any real moral compass the first thing that a transgender person should do is tell a perspective partner that they are transgender. If you want to set the advances in acceptance to transgenderism back severely then go ahead and promote that concept of transgenders lying about their transgenderism to obtain sex. Seriously the more that this idea of lying about your own transgenderism is promoted the more that people will have resentment about transgenderism and perhaps stigmatize transgender people more.

I have the right to know who I am sleeping with. I should not have to be forced to do something that I do not want to do, because you chose to lie about it or withheld the information.

My personal disgust of sleeping with a transgender person is not your to dictate away. It is my sexual preference not to **** transgender persons and what makes me an heterosexual that you are attacking. Let me make this clear: my choices are mine not yours. Who I am sexually interested in is not anyone elses choice but mine. If I were on a date and the person revealed that they trans then fine, that does not change my opinion of the person, it just means that sex is out of the question. I see nothing wrong with transgenderism, i just do not want to sleep with them. And I do not want them to lie to me to sleep with me. If that were to happen I would feel violated and would probably end up needing to seek mental help from professionals. You can laugh all that you want in your bigoted way but it will not change the fact that I am disgusted at the thought of sex with a transgender person. Its just like telling a homosexual that they should have sex with the opposite sex; its wrong. Like it or not people like me exist and there will never anything that you can do to make us not exist. I was born this way.
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1.) nope thats some retarded strawman you are making up because you cant support your claims.
2.) nice try but its because they further prove your claims wrong. that is proven below
3.) the scenario in the OP can happen and thats exactly right there would be no lie . . hence why your claim is sunk and cant be supported
4.) yes it is, as much as your fantasy made up scenario is. If she is legally a girl whats that do to the case you already cant make?
5.) thats your FEELINGS and they are meaningless to the legality of what you claim. .thanks for proving yourself wrong . . there is no "lie" if it doesnt come up

6.) stopped reading after personal disgust because again that is meaningless to your claims of a suit


nothing you provided so far holds and weight in regards to sexual assault/rape.....
when you have something let me know lol
 
AGENT J said:
1.) nope thats some retarded strawman you are making up because you cant support your claims.
2.) nice try but its because they further prove your claims wrong. that is proven below
3.) the scenario in the OP can happen and thats exactly right there would be no lie . . hence why your claim is sunk and cant be supported
4.) yes it is, as much as your fantasy made up scenario is. If she is legally a girl whats that do to the case you already cant make?
5.) thats your FEELINGS and they are meaningless to the legality of what you claim. .thanks for proving yourself wrong . . there is no "lie" if it doesnt come up

6.) stopped reading after personal disgust because again that is meaningless to your claims of a suit


nothing you provided so far holds and weight in regards to sexual assault/rape.....
when you have something let me know lol
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Even though I hate to agree with agent j once a mtf transgender goes through gender reassignment surgery they are considered a female. So if you where able to have sex with them and not notice they where male. Then they have been through gender reassignment surgery and aren’t male in the eyes of the law.


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Babykat said:
Even though I hate to agree with agent j once a mtf transgender goes through gender reassignment surgery they are considered a female. So if you where able to have sex with them and not notice they where male. Then they have been through gender reassignment surgery and aren’t male in the eyes of the law.


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I agree with you, you have proven before that you hate to agree with facts and reality.
But also what you are saying above is factually not true . . its not just the surgery when it comes to legality (eyes of the law) more sometimes less is required.
Its inconsistent state per state, document per document and its not just the surgery like you sated.

Regardless none of that is the point of the discussion. it was based on claims of "lies and deception" and the point was thats a really hard sell and if a legal transition was made there is no lie or deception.
 
AGENT J said:
I agree with you, you have proven before that you hate to agree with facts and reality.
But also what you are saying above is factually not true . . its not just the surgery when it comes to legality (eyes of the law) more sometimes less is required.
Its inconsistent state per state, document per document and its not just the surgery like you

(sated.)

Regardless none of that is the point of the discussion. it was based on claims of "lies and deception" and the point was thats a really hard sell and if a legal transition was made there is no lie or deception.
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Stated not sated


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Babykat said:
Stated not sated


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LMAO what? you claim i quoted was factually wrong. Show integrity and honesty and admit that or deny it like usual :shrug:
 
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