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Chivalry

nota bene said:
Oh, why stop there?

You'd be surprised by how many people steal fresh flowers from graves for their dinner party table arrangements. BTW, I am NOT making this up.
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One of our great family stories involves mom, as a tyke, bringing her mother flowers after school. Since mom was roughly 5 and didn't have any money the obvious question was "Where did the flowers come from?". Mom, who has always been a thinker, had plucked them from the garden of the blind lady down the street because, after all, blind people can't see flowers.
 
nota bene said:
I remember a discussion a few years ago during which a DP member named Summerwind posted that she crossed men who brought her flowers off her list. She hated that, and their bringing flowers proved that they didn't respect her enough pay attention to her likes/dislikes.

Takes all kind. I love flowers so much that I buy them for myself, particularly alstromeria, from time to time, and I grow them too.
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I think the entire thing is pointless if the man is just going to use flowers to pass by the skin of his teeth. If she doesn't even like flowers and he gets her flowers anyway I don't think he is really showing any sort of effort to show he loves her. It's more of a chore that he is doing because he thinks it is expected, which I can understand if a woman doesn't appreciate. It's like Valentines day where the man does something romantic because of a date on a calendar. If a woman's husband or boyfriend truly wants to get his girlfriend flowers or do some kind of romantic gesture then he doesn't need a calendar to remind him of anything or push him to do it. He will just do it because he wants too, which is exactly what makes it work.

I think her reaction to the flowers was extreme, but her overall point was correct.
 
You know, being gay is just fantastic. It's great not having to worry about these gendered expectations.
 
Josie said:
Ladies -- what do you expect from a man in terms of chivalry? I know, I know -- you expect that all people would be courteous - me too. But I'm speaking specifically about going on a date or being in a relationship with someone (married or not). Which of these things do you expect a man to do? Add to the list if you want. :)

1. Holding the door open for you.
2. Opening the car door for you (getting out and getting in).
3. Sharing his umbrella even if he gets a little wet.
4. Offering you his coat when you're cold.
5. Walking on the street-side of the sidewalk.
6. Pulling out your chair for you to sit down.
7. Helping you with your coat.
8. Keeping your private lives to himself -- no giving all the details to friends.
9. Giving flowers or something else meaningful to you for no special reason - just because.
10. Calling just to say "good morning" or "good night".

Men -- which of those things do you do or would be willing to do?
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Different things are important to different women.

The one I ended up marrying finds 1 & 2 patronizing at times but appreciates them at other times. I have to feel those out. 6 & 7 are not always required or appreciated, but definitely necessary in a formal atmosphere. 8 is pure decency. 9 & 10 are worth doing when you think it's right and on random occasions because they let the woman know you are thinking about them - always. 5 I do on suspect roads, but generally don't think about. 3 & 4 I do, always.
 
Your Star said:
You know, being gay is just fantastic. It's great not having to worry about these gendered expectations.
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Never tried it. Too bad it's not like weed or something. Dabble a bit and see if it's up your alley. Don't work that way though. At last not from my experience.
 
Your Star said:
You know, being gay is just fantastic. It's great not having to worry about these gendered expectations.
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What about the fem/butch dichotomy? Does this stuff ever enter into the picture?
 
I would do all those things if I thought the woman would like it, and would show her appreciation.
 
Josie said:
8. Keeping your private lives to himself -- no giving all the details to friends.
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Is there some way we can make this apply to women?

Also:
Gautier's Ten Commandments of chivalry are:

Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches and thou shalt observe all its directions.
Thou shalt defend the Church.
Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born.
Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
Thou shalt make war against the infidel without cessation and without mercy.
Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God.
Thou shalt never lie, and shalt remain faithful to thy pledged word.
Thou shalt be generous, and give largesse to everyone.
Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.
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You can open your own damn door.
 
Lovebug said:
8. Keeping your private lives to himself -- no giving all the details to friends.
I can't think of much that others couldn't know. They know I snore. What else is there?
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Anything personal that you'd like to keep between you and your partner -- sex life, past relationships, tragic things that have happened to you, embarrassing moments that you don't want anyone else to know, etc.
 
Josie said:
Anything personal that you'd like to keep between you and your partner -- sex life, past relationships, tragic things that have happened to you, embarrassing moments that you don't want anyone else to know, etc.
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Sex life...we enjoy the intimate part of our relationship, emphasis intimate. What's to share?
Husband has no need to brag or tell tales, neither do I. It's a mutual understanding based on lessons our parents taught us.
Past relationships are mentioned on occasion, but not in detail, based on trust developed over the years.
Tragic things may be personal for some, to us they are no secret. If we can't help another in any way by sharing our experience, we will do so when asked.
What's embarrassing for some is funny to us. We can laugh about ourselves.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
What about the fem/butch dichotomy? Does this stuff ever enter into the picture?
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I've never been in one of those relationships myself, so I can't speak personally, though, from what I've seen they don't have those these strict social norms that one must feel bad/be ostracized about by breaking or not adhering perfectly too. Roles develop more dynamically when there's no prefab set of roles based upon gender to fall into.
 
Your Star said:
You know, being gay is just fantastic. It's great not having to worry about these gendered expectations.
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You bring up a good point.
Gendered expectations...I think that is very important to note. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I like to think that chivalry is appreciated in all relationships, aside from gender norms.
A little unexpected note from your loved one, a gesture of appreciation, holding the umbrella. I like to think that is what you do when you care for one another, regardless of relationship norm.
General politeness, chivalrous gestures, just show good upbringing. Well, that's how I see it.
 
I consider myself being chivalrous when I keep my mouth shut at a time I really want to say, "STFU, you moron."
 
spud_meister said:
Women tell each other everything though.

Both. Chivalry is a code of conduct for landed knights. I don't even own a horse.
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I don't tell my friends everything.

I'm sure you do chivalrous things for your girl.
 
Your Star said:
I've never been in one of those relationships myself, so I can't speak personally, though, from what I've seen they don't have those these strict social norms that one must feel bad/be ostracized about by breaking or not adhering perfectly too. Roles develop more dynamically when there's no prefab set of roles based upon gender to fall into.
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Thanks for your answer, as well as the one given by TheGoverness.

I realize that gender 'role boxes' are really stereotypes that real people don't generally fit into, gay or straight. Every relationship I have been in has involved working to sort out expectations and needs in regards to roles. There were a few where the inability of of the two of us to work that stuff out ended the relationship. This is sort of evident in my response to the OP.

I asked the question because a gay friend of my wife and I said something to us about it once. I won't try to quote her exactly because this was about 12 years ago. She's coming to visit us later in the summer, I'll ask her about the subject.
 
Josie said:
Ladies -- what do you expect from a man in terms of chivalry? I know, I know -- you expect that all people would be courteous - me too. But I'm speaking specifically about going on a date or being in a relationship with someone (married or not). Which of these things do you expect a man to do? Add to the list if you want. :)

1. Holding the door open for you.
2. Opening the car door for you (getting out and getting in).
3. Sharing his umbrella even if he gets a little wet.
4. Offering you his coat when you're cold.
5. Walking on the street-side of the sidewalk.
6. Pulling out your chair for you to sit down.
7. Helping you with your coat.
8. Keeping your private lives to himself -- no giving all the details to friends.
9. Giving flowers or something else meaningful to you for no special reason - just because.
10. Calling just to say "good morning" or "good night".

Men -- which of those things do you do or would be willing to do?
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I pretty much do all of the above, though when I'm not home calling to say "Hi" first thing in the morning has been replaced with text messages that say "hi" through much of the day - mostly because she's usually up when I leave for work so I say good morning in person.

I used to send her flowers weekly for years. These days I usually pick up some when I'm in the market - our market actually has really good flowers.
 
Josie said:
Ladies -- what do you expect from a man in terms of chivalry? I know, I know -- you expect that all people would be courteous - me too. But I'm speaking specifically about going on a date or being in a relationship with someone (married or not). Which of these things do you expect a man to do? Add to the list if you want. :)

1. Holding the door open for you.
2. Opening the car door for you (getting out and getting in).
3. Sharing his umbrella even if he gets a little wet.
4. Offering you his coat when you're cold.
5. Walking on the street-side of the sidewalk.
6. Pulling out your chair for you to sit down.
7. Helping you with your coat.
8. Keeping your private lives to himself -- no giving all the details to friends.
9. Giving flowers or something else meaningful to you for no special reason - just because.
10. Calling just to say "good morning" or "good night".

Men -- which of those things do you do or would be willing to do?
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Don't do car doors and don't offer up my coat. Bring your own. You know it is cold outside just as well as I do. Besides, if I can't snoop in your purse, then you can't snoop in my coat pockets. They are like my man purse.
 
Josie said:
Ladies -- what do you expect from a man in terms of chivalry? I know, I know -- you expect that all people would be courteous - me too. But I'm speaking specifically about going on a date or being in a relationship with someone (married or not). Which of these things do you expect a man to do? Add to the list if you want. :)

1. Holding the door open for you.
2. Opening the car door for you (getting out and getting in).
3. Sharing his umbrella even if he gets a little wet.
4. Offering you his coat when you're cold.
5. Walking on the street-side of the sidewalk.
6. Pulling out your chair for you to sit down.
7. Helping you with your coat.
8. Keeping your private lives to himself -- no giving all the details to friends.
9. Giving flowers or something else meaningful to you for no special reason - just because.
10. Calling just to say "good morning" or "good night".

Men -- which of those things do you do or would be willing to do?
Click to expand...

1. I expect this if he is more conveniently positioned, like I'd expect of a perfect stranger of any sex. I'd do it if I'm more conveniently positioned.
2. No.
3. I'd expect this of anyone who's friendly with me and vise versa.
4. Maybe. I mean, depends? If I didn't dress properly in a way that is slightly annoying for me, that's sort of my own fault and I probably wouldn't say anything.
5. No.
6. No.
7. No.
8. Yes.
9. I don't expect it, but it's not unwelcome. I mean, he could just make me some tea. That's nice.
10. Don't expect it, but that's nice I guess.

I general, I dislike being treated like an invalid or an idiot, which is honestly what most of those things remind me of. Of the few that don't, most are just courteous things that I'm just as likely to expect from someone I'm not on a date with.

There's nothing "special" I expect only from men. I don't see the point of that.

Chivalry is dead, and I'm throwing dirt on its casket.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
1. I expect this if he is more conveniently positioned, like I'd expect of a perfect stranger of any sex. I'd do it if I'm more conveniently positioned.
2. No.
3. I'd expect this of anyone who's friendly with me and vise versa.
4. Maybe. I mean, depends? If I didn't dress properly in a way that is slightly annoying for me, that's sort of my own fault and I probably wouldn't say anything.
5. No.
6. No.
7. No.
8. Yes.
9. I don't expect it, but it's not unwelcome. I mean, he could just make me some tea. That's nice.
10. Don't expect it, but that's nice I guess.

I general, I dislike being treated like an invalid or an idiot, which is honestly what most of those things remind me of. Of the few that don't, most are just courteously things that I'm just as likely to expect from someone I'm not on a date with.

There's nothing "special" I expect only from men. I don't see the point of that.

Chivalry is dead, and I'm throwing dirt on its casket.
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Nah, it's not. It's alive and well although not as much as it used to be, probably.

No guy who does those things believes his women is an invalid or an idiot.
 
Josie said:
Nah, it's not. It's alive and well although not as much as it used to be, probably.

No guy who does those things believes his women is an invalid or an idiot.
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Can't say I see it around much. That's fine with me.

I've never met a man who does, who doesn't have some pretty antiquated beliefs about women. And either way, I really just don't like it. It's annoying. It's way more work to sit when someone is moving your damn chair around than it is to just... sit. Even practically, I don't see the appeal of it at all.
 
Crovax said:
1,3,4,5,6,7, and 8.

2. She can open her own car door that's a bit ridiculous.
9. Flower and cards are dumb, I don't do them period.
10. I hate this constant contact people need these days. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.
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I have always seen flowers as a sign of a dying relationship as the flowers die quickly.
 
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