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An Effective COVID Treatment the Media Continues to Besmirch

Hydroxychloroquine used by Korea for Covid-19 while US is divided | Christina Lin | The Blogs

The unmentioned component of the South Korea success: Hydroxychloroquine

You need to read your March article more carefully. It does not suggest that hydroxychloroquine is a cure or anything close; it states that it was used in conjunction with other drugs to help alleviate pain in the very seriously ill displaying symptoms of pneumonia.

South Korea experts recommend anti-HIV, anti-malaria drugs for COVID-19 - UPI.com

Then there's this from June:

South Korea backs remdesivir for COVID-19, urges caution with dexamethasone - World - The Jakarta Post

"Korean health authorities also advised the dropping of hydroxychloroquine after a study found the decades-old malaria drug, which US President Donald Trump touted as a possible treatment, did not provide any benefit".
 
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Of the 68 TOTAL studies, 3/4 are positive. Why do you ignore the positive studies?

1. Just because authors of this no-name page say they are positive, does not mean that they are. (Yes, when I bothered to check some they were incorrectly classified as positive)

2. Most studies are NOT important in determining if HCQ should be used. Rather, they just evaluate whether the RCTs need to be done... You know, the real gold standard in medicine. And yes, sufficient number of preliminary observational studies was positive for RCTs to be conducted.

So now... go ahead and point me to RCTs on this list. Then we can talk. Hint: as far as I know, RCTs for HCQ showed it was no good.
 
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1. Just because authors of this no-name page say they are positive, does not mean that they are. (Yes, when I bothered to check some they were incorrectly classified as positive)

2. Most studies are NOT important in determining if HCQ should be used. Rather, they just evaluate whether the RCTs need to be done... You know, the real gold standard in medicine. And yes, sufficient number of preliminary observational studies was positive for RCTs to be conducted.

So now... go ahead and point me to RCTs on this list. Then we can talk. Hint: as far as I know, RCTs for HCQ showed it was no good.

List all the studies which you discovered were incorrectly classified, with verifiable references. Doesn't that work both ways? Doesn't that mean some of the negatively attributed studies were actually positive? Or are we just traveling down the liberal one way street today?
 
List all the studies which you discovered were incorrectly classified, with verifiable references. Doesn't that work both ways? Doesn't that mean some of the negatively attributed studies were actually positive? Or are we just traveling down the liberal one way street today?

Here are RCTs:

July 16, 2020

Conclusion: "Hydroxychloroquine did not substantially reduce symptom severity in outpatients with early, mild COVID-19."

"Medication adverse effects occurred in 43% of participants receiving hydroxychloroquine versus 22% receiving placebo"

Your site incorrectly says it's "inconclusive".

June 5, 2020 Recover study

"We have concluded that there is no beneficial effect of hydroxychloroquine in patients hospitalised with COVID-19."

Your site correctly classifies it as negative


June 3, 2020 Boulware et al

"After high-risk or moderate-risk exposure to Covid-19, hydroxychloroquine did not prevent illness compatible with Covid-19 or confirmed infection when used as postexposure prophylaxis within 4 days after exposure. "

Your site incorrectly classifies it as positive


ORCHID study by NIH got halted on June 20

"The data from this study indicate that this drug provided no additional benefit compared to placebo control for the treatment of COVID-19 in hospitalized patients."

I did not find this one on your site at all

Go ahead. Show me RCTs that were positive for HCQ. Still waiting.
 
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IMO if the use of HCQ has ANY positive effects on ANY proportion of those with Covid-19, even if it is (as some Dr.'s indicate) at the inception of the disease? Then there should be no arguments against it's use as prescribed by a doctor.

We have enough studies and medical practitioners who say it has some positive effects.

IMO it is only because Trump touted it that the Left hates it and has to knock it.

IMO if anyone the Left lauds had said the same thing prior to Trump, they would support it's use while knocking Trump as a johnny-come-lately trying to take credit for it if he then agreed it was good.

One of the biggest mistakes we make is to assume that other people think like we do. You may view everything through a lens of tribalism, but people who are science and reason based do not. So when you say that we hate it because Trump likes it, it sounds nonsensical to us. Its like saying we don't like pudding because eels swim on the moon. Its completely meaningless gibberish. You respond similarly when faced with science and reason. Who said it? Are they on your "team". That's what really counts for tribalists.

It's really simple. All you have to do is show data that supports your conclusion. That means conducting an experiment that discerns if your hypothesis were true, rather than seeking evidence to support what you already 'know' to be true. And if you can't see the giant difference between the two, that's exactly the point.
 
Posted this elsewhere, but it also belongs here:

Scientists Uncover Biological Signatures of the Worst Covid-19 Cases - The New York Times

The article I listed in the OP explains that the studies that show HCQ to be effective all used HCQ as part of early treatment, rather than late treatment. THis new finding written about in the NYT article could possibly point to why HCQ might be effective.

Essentially, what the doctors are finding is that the patients that develop severe cases seem to have improper immune response for a viral infection. For some reason their bodies immune response targets bacterial and parasitic infection, rather than just viral infection. The body then continues to ramp up the response because the initial response didn't defeat the infection... which would be expected since it isn't fighting the right kind of infection.

This intense immune response injures or kills the patient.

Now, consider this: Hydroxychloroquine is a cocktail specifically designed to reduce and control the body's immune response to parasitic infection (ie. Malaria).

So, if HCQ is applied early then it would combat at least one of the two erroneous inflammatory responses in those patients, slowing the development, or preventing the runaway cytokine storms that kill some patients.
 
The article I listed in the OP explains that the studies that show HCQ to be effective all used HCQ as part of early treatment...
The article only discussed one such study -- the Henry Ford one, which (again) was not an RCT/double-blind.


So, if HCQ is applied early then it would combat at least one of the two erroneous inflammatory responses in those patients, slowing the development, or preventing the runaway cytokine storms that kill some patients.
To be more accurate: HCQ suppresses one of many immune system reactions to COVID-19.

That's why... it makes sense... to do... randomized controlled studies on HCQ.

However, when those RCTs do not show success, then it makes less and less sense to expend time and resources on it. Apparently, that's what the RCTs are currently indicating.

By the way, HCQ wasn't "specifically designed" for anything. Indigenous tribes of Peru discovered a long time ago that chewing a certain type of tree bark (which happened to have a lot of quinine) relieved many symptoms of malaria. Westerners used quinine tonics as treatment. In 1945, it was modified into hydroxychloroquine. I.e. the active ingredient was used long before anyone understood the mechanism of action... or before anyone even knew what a virus was in the first place.
 
Yes, the point is you are unwilling to even consider anything outside of your preconceived notions. The bottom line is, political hacks shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the doctor/patient relationship.

I am accepting what the experts say. In fact, in congress, one of the 'positive' ones were brought up by a republican congressman (the study from Italy) that was pushed by the ford foundation when he was attempting to grill and one up Dr Fauci.
That got slammed pretty fast. The thing is, the alleged positive studies get looked at, and are flawed. The double blind ones show it doesn't work. I'll go with what the professionals say, not some yoyo on the internet that is pushing propoganda to make their messiah look good.

The point that was made by professionals whose job it is to know that, and to have actions on it is 'The positive cases were not double blind studies and were flawed'

I backed my point up with sources. You don't seem to be able to absorb that.
 
The article only discussed one such study -- the Henry Ford one, which (again) was not an RCT/double-blind.

Double blind studies are only one way to eliminate confounding variables, it isn't the only way. It is absurd for you and others to shoot down entirely valid Observational studies because they aren't the gold standard while two of the 4 most prestigious RCTs have fraught with errors, one having to be retracted, and a second on its way to retraction.

It would seem that RCTs aren't as reliable as you want them to be... and if you want to throw out the Ford Study because it is observational and stand by the findings of the Lancet study because it was an RCT then I don't know what to tell you.

To be more accurate: HCQ suppresses one of many immune system reactions to COVID-19.

Indeed, it suppresses the first wave response to viral and bacterial infection, which would explain why it sees better results when prescribed early than it does with patients in late stage cytokine storms.

That's why... it makes sense... to do... randomized controlled studies on HCQ.

Nobody... has.. argued.. otherwise. Making... it... illegal... to prescribe... inhibits... such... studies.

However, when those RCTs do not show success, then it makes less and less sense to expend time and resources on it. Apparently, that's what the RCTs are currently indicating.

You make it sound like there are a lot of RCTs when there aren't. The most prominent, and not problematic, RCT was testing HCQ in late stage treatment, which none of the field observations and OSs were indicating as being effective.

By the way, HCQ wasn't "specifically designed" for anything. Indigenous tribes of Peru discovered a long time ago that chewing a certain type of tree bark (which happened to have a lot of quinine) relieved many symptoms of malaria. Westerners used quinine tonics as treatment. In 1945, it was modified into hydroxychloroquine. I.e. the active ingredient was used long before anyone understood the mechanism of action... or before anyone even knew what a virus was in the first place.

.. it's weird that you don't see that your own argument is self defeating. :lol:
 
Double blind studies are only one way to eliminate confounding variables, it isn't the only way.
Double blind studies aren't about "confounding variables." They're about making sure the study isn't improperly influenced by doctors, patients, nurses, hospitals, drug makers and so on. That can include picking optimal test subjects (Henry Ford), excluding patients with bad outcomes (Raoult study), nurses unconsciously treating patients better or worse because they are or aren't on the drug....

Another advantage is that it compares the drug or therapy to placebo, which creates a benchmark. It isn't enough to say "HCQ helps 20% of patients!" if it turns out that 30% of placebo patients improved (a common result, btw).


It is absurd for you and others to shoot down entirely valid Observational studies because they aren't the gold standard while two of the 4 most prestigious RCTs have fraught with errors, one having to be retracted, and a second on its way to retraction.
...or, we can note that observational studies often aren't definitive, are tainted by the use of other medications (like the Henry Ford study mixing steroid use with HCQ), or are otherwise limited.

Nor have I heard of any RCTs being retracted. Cite your sources.


It would seem that RCTs aren't as reliable as you want them to be...
RCTs are not perfect -- and that's why it is best to rely on multiple RCTs, run by different people. However, there is no question that they are the best available option.


and if you want to throw out the Ford Study because it is observational and stand by the findings of the Lancet study because it was an RCT then I don't know what to tell you.
You either don't know the difference between an observational and RCT study, or you are misinformed.

The only HCQ study published in The Lancet and retracted was... wait for it... an observational study. It was retracted because it relied on data from Surgisphere, which could not be independently verified.


Nobody... has.. argued.. otherwise. Making... it... illegal... to prescribe... inhibits... such... studies.
Lol! No, that's not how it works.

In the US, studies get approval from the FDA. That can include drugs that are not yet approved at all, or drugs that the DEA classifies as Schedule II through V. (AFAIK it's very difficult to test Schedule I drugs, which is why there are so few medicinal studies of marijuana.)

Separately, the FDA can allow emergency use of a medication (which they did for HCQ, between March 28th and June 15th). Without that emergency authorization, though, doctors can STILL prescribe HCQ on an off-label basis. The FDA does advise against further HCQ studies, but has not blocked them.

I see no indication that any nation has actually barred or outlawed any RCT studies of HCQ.

Next time, you really should know what you're talking about before trying to slow-walk a point.


You make it sound like there are a lot of RCTs when there aren't.
There are enough.

- Prophylactic study: fail
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638

- NIH halted study early because it showed no benefit
NIH halts clinical trial of hydroxychloroquine | National Institutes of Health (NIH)

- RCT study found no benefit
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2019014

- RCT study on early treatment found no benefit
Hydroxychloroquine for Early Treatment of Adults with Mild Covid-19: A Randomized-Controlled Trial | Clinical Infectious Diseases | Oxford Academic

- UK study found no benefit
https://www.recoverytrial.net/files/hcq-recovery-statement-050620-final-002.pdf

- Metastudy of the available RCTs in May found that the evidence was "weak and conflicting"
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-2496

- BMJ: RCT study, mild to moderate disease, no benefit
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1849

I see no indication that any of these studies was retracted.


it's weird that you don't see that your own argument is self defeating.
That's because... it isn't.

Since you seem rather ignorant of drug trials, just because something should work does not mean it will work. Lots of hopes are dashed when a promising drug doesn't work out.

On a side note, we should remember that HCQ already has proven uses for conditions like lupus -- and the Trump-fired frenzy over HCQ has already resulted in a shortage of the drug, which hurts those people.

So, like I said: The initial impulse to test HCQ was a little out of left field, but made enough sense to justify RCTs. However, those RCTs are showing little to no benefit, while other drugs are showing much more promise, and are not likely to cause harmful shortages. That's why it is almost certainly time to move on.
 
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