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The Uncomfortable Truth about Going Back to School

TheGoverness said:
Well, how do you feel about going back to school to teach? We're going to have hybrid classes at my college, so that's going to be weird, and the small groups of class meetings are going to be spaced out, along with mask requirements.
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Are they charging you full boat for these "Hybrid classes?"
 
Helix said:
let's get something straight first. you are so eager to reopen that you are willing to risk your long term health for it? you do realize that even if you live through COVID, you might suffer permanent consequences from it, right? my wife is going to have to do both in person and e-learning because of these idiots, and my kid is going into daycare to lick toys with other kids because of this bull****. am i furious about it? yep. but you are going to be on the front lines. what the **** are you thinking tacitly defending this ****?
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You obviously haven't read what I've said here or elsewhere about reopening schools. I'm not "eager" for it. No one is. Everyone -- teachers, admins, parents, students -- are nervous as hell about it. We all want to do what is best and what is "best" isn't objective. It's not just physical health that's a problem here -- this isolation from peers can cause life-long social-emotional problems too. We have kids who have spent the last 5 months trapped in a house with their abusers. We have IEP students who (by law) have to get their minutes with the special education teacher. It's not a cut and dried situation.

You want to make this all about politics when it shouldn't be and it isn't. Republican AND Democrat-led states are reopening schools. This isn't a "Cheeto-man bad!" situation, Helix.
 
Helix said:
let's get something straight first. you are so eager to reopen that you are willing to risk your long term health for it? you do realize that even if you live through COVID, you might suffer permanent consequences from it, right? my wife is going to have to do both in person and e-learning because of these idiots, and my kid is going into daycare to lick toys with other kids because of this bull****. am i furious about it? yep. but you are going to be on the front lines. what the **** are you thinking tacitly defending this ****?
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Quit your job and stay at home with your kid. Choice is yours.
 
Josie said:
Mmmkay. Please don't return then.
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Face it, Josie. We're in a new era and if you can't get an argument across in 140 characters or less then half the nation will lose attention. America wants simple answers to complex questions and if they don't get what they want it's because you're holding them back for your own benefit.

Personally I HATE the idea of using kids and teachers as guinea pigs in this experiment but that really isn't what's happening. We've been "open" in Tucson for 8 weeks or so and we're not in bad shape. Phoenix is having some issues but there really isn't enough good quality public data to see exactly why they are having more issues there than we are here.

We've got kids in grocery stores and restaurants out here. The school age ones are generally with their parents and grandparents. If they aren't having problems with that then schools should be reasonably safe too. Take common sense steps, not panic based steps.
 
Josie said:
Please watch and discuss.
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If it didn't have a negative psychological effect on kids keeping them home in isolation, I might agree that keeping schools closed just as a precaution would be ok. But since that isn't the case, and Covid doesn't pose any real threat to kids, schools need to be reopened in the fall.

.
 
Josie said:
You obviously haven't read what I've said here or elsewhere about reopening schools. I'm not "eager" for it. No one is. Everyone -- teachers, admins, parents, students -- are nervous as hell about it. We all want to do what is best and what is "best" isn't objective. It's not just physical health that's a problem here -- this isolation from peers can cause life-long social-emotional problems too. We have kids who have spent the last 5 months trapped in a house with their abusers. It's not a cut and dried situation.

You want to make this all about politics when it shouldn't be and it isn't. Republican AND Democrat-led states are reopening schools. This isn't a "Cheeto-man bad!" situation, Helix.
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i'd choose isolation over my wife or kid getting sick. ****, my kid is missing out on pre-k education at a time when he really needs it. and yeah, it is largely the Republicans around here pushing reopening and pretending that nothing is going on because that's what their propaganda is telling them. meanwhile, i have been working breakneck hours in research for months trying to address this pandemic while putting myself at risk, so yeah, i'm pretty pissed off when these jackass politicians push reopening before there's a vaccine or a highly effective treatment widely available. you don't reopen when cases are spiking. one doesn't have to be an expert to know that.
 
Drawdown said:
Quit your job and stay at home with your kid. Choice is yours.
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you actually wouldn't want me to do that. i can't afford to anyway.
 
Josie said:
This isn't a "Cheeto-man bad!" situation, Helix.
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Yes it is. Every other comparable country got COVID under control. Germany France Canada etc.
We didn't because of Cheeto man. You're just too partisan to see that.
 
Caution, the citation may contain some actual science that may not support some people's political agendas or political ideologies.

New York Times-Hyped Korean Report Actually Shows Kids Are Not Spreading Coronavirus
In an incredible redux of when they hyped the Christian Drosten fake paper claiming children were highly infectious — when his math actually showed the opposite — the New York Times and Chicago Tribune pushed screaming headlines that a new Korean government report proves children ages 10 to 19 are highly infectious.
The Korean government report, based on data from March and ignoring all newer research, does make that claim, with qualifications, in its narrative summary. Its actual math, however, shows exactly the opposite. Do the elite newspapers even bother to consult anyone numerate?

. . . .

In fact, the report found that it was extremely rare for children to bring an infection into the home. It found that just 2.7 percent of potential “index cases” (first case in the home) were under age 20. Imagine twisting that into a call for school closures. It’s astonishingly reckless.
Screen-Shot-2020-07-22-at-11.13.40-AM.png

The report also did no genetic mapping and therefore was unable to determine true index cases. The paper itself says, “[W]e could not determine direction of transmission.” Contrast that with the contact tracing study from Iceland, which mapped haplotypes to determine direction of transmission and found it was almost always parent to child.

The supposedly highly contagious 10-19 group had only 3.7 contacts per potential index patient, which is dwarfed by the adult categories. This report, to the extent it tells us anything, indicates children play no significant role in community transmission, consistent with all of the most recent research.

You’ll also notice the number of potential under-age-20 “index cases” in the report is 153, not the 65,000 suggested by the New York Times’ dishonest sub-headline.
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Lutherf said:
Face it, Josie. We're in a new era and if you can't get an argument across in 140 characters or less then half the nation will lose attention. America wants simple answers to complex questions and if they don't get what they want it's because you're holding them back for your own benefit.

Personally I HATE the idea of using kids and teachers as guinea pigs in this experiment but that really isn't what's happening. We've been "open" in Tucson for 8 weeks or so and we're not in bad shape. Phoenix is having some issues but there really isn't enough good quality public data to see exactly why they are having more issues there than we are here.

We've got kids in grocery stores and restaurants out here. The school age ones are generally with their parents and grandparents. If they aren't having problems with that then schools should be reasonably safe too. Take common sense steps, not panic based steps.
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Yes, exactly. I do feel a lot more panicky than not about it all, though. I just wonder what's going to happen when a teacher gets sick. The entire class stays home quarantined for 2 weeks?
 
Fruityfact said:
Yes it is. Every other comparable country got COVID under control. Germany France Canada etc.
We didn't because of Cheeto man. You're just too partisan to see that.
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I have no allegiance to any political party. And I'm not a Trump voter.

The reopening of schools isn't just a Republican thing. Democrat-led states are also reopening.
 
TheGoverness said:
I'm concerned that most schools will not be able to implement measures in a way that will protect both students and faculty. Plus, a lot of schools are jam-packed with students, like my old high school is, and there's no way you'll get any ample social distancing out of that place. My district is delaying in-person classrooms until September, and there's a bunch of other school districts here in Texas that are doing the same, and starting with online learning first. I'd be supported of a further delay if need be.

But at the same time, I do recognize that schools are important for various reasons. It absolutely sucked with ZOOM classes at college, and I hated it so much. I didn't learn much of anything, because all of my professors had to rework their curriculum stuff because of the shutdown. We're still going to have to deal with Zoom, so at least I'll get some classroom interaction.

Maybe school districts could do the same; find ways to split students coming to school throughout a week, and supplement them being away with online learning? I think that could keep schools from being completely jam-packed.
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Schools in my area are having both in class, and distant learning. Class sizes are limited to 15 students. Students will attend 50% of the time, every second week. Those students who have health issues will be full-time distant learning; teachers with health concerns will be full-time distant teaching. Both Federal and Provincial governments are kicking in money to get the schools ready and to set up the programs. In other countries a spike has happened soon after schools have opened. It seems children in the middle grades are the ones who are most difficult to train in the new normal.
 
Josie said:
Yes, exactly. I do feel a lot more panicky than not about it all, though. I just wonder what's going to happen when a teacher gets sick. The entire class stays home quarantined for 2 weeks?
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It sure would be nice to have a crystal ball to see how this all turns out but that simply isn't realistic.

In my office, I didn't do much of anything different. I hosed down desks and stuff and sprayed Lysol until I ran out (I'm starting to think we'll NEVER see that stuff again!). If a client wanted me to wear a mask I did. I shook VERY few hands, which was really weird for me to get used to. I had one employee that was uncomfortable so she only came in on weekends at 5am or whatever.

As far as kids in school, they need to get out of the house and in front of other kids. Too much screen time will rot their brains and, more importantly, will make getting back into the swing of things even more difficult once this all passes.

For the teachers, they need to maybe take a few more steps. Maybe they can have some kind of acrylic divider at the front of the room and in a case like yours where the kids need a little more "hands on" it might be prudent to use gloves.

The key to it all will be to monitor staff as much as possible, encourage parents to monitor the kids and respond as quickly as possible if things start to go sideways.
 
TheGoverness said:
Yes, they are. I get my tuition paid for from the Hazelwood Act, but still. :shrug:
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Those asshats are charging you full boat for what you can get for free on the internet? Good lord! Greedy little bitches arent they? It one thing to charge for in person class its a whole other to charge for what can be had on the inter-webs for essentially free. Most colleges make a very good profit margin of over 70%, excluding any taxes they avoid and donations and any endowments. I hope you are at least studying a hard discipline that makes money. I suggest you badger them into at least some free credits to apply to future classes considering the severe reduction in quality of product they are delivering. That's the least they can do. Good luck.
 
I have 6 grandchildren. Two have graduated from college. One is starting college this year. One is in high school and the other two are in grade school. The young college student will start classes this Fall on campus. The high school student will be starting classes at the end of August. He is so excited. The two youngest still in elementary school will also be starting the first week in September and they are both excited. All the districts involving my grandchildren gave parents options to continue online classes or return to the classroom. They have all worked hard to make sure they are providing a safe and healthy environment as possible.

I see teachers as essential workers. I do not think those who want schools to continue to be shut down even have a clue how devastating it has been for kids during this lockdown and I don't think they give a flying fig of the children's wellbeing.

My two youngest grandchildren, my son's children, were tutored by a school teacher 4 hours a day in their home 5 days a week from March 1 when they shut down the schools till the end of the school year while they both worked from home and continue to work from home. That's great if you are fortunate to afford such but only a small percentage of people can. I hate to think what shape they would be in without the extra help.

My youngest grandchild, A., does not find joy in reading chapter books. As long as they are short and sweet she is fine with reading. Soooo what could help her with that one? Reading about things she likes? Yes. Last year it was everything unicorns with that child. This year it is fairies. Thank G-d for Amazon. I found a series called Never Girls put out by Disney that is all about fairies in Never Land. I ordered all three series for her birthday. A total of 12 books in all. I am giving it to her 4 weeks before her birthday in hopes she can get interested in reading a chapter book or two about something she likes before school starts.

Kids need school. Period. And we need to focus on whatever it takes to insure they return.
 
Josie said:
Please watch and discuss.
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Heya Josie.. :)

So, I watched most of your video...not all of it, I'll be honest, but I wanted to watch at least as much of it as I plan to ask you to watch of mine - I got to 14:37, because I wanted to hear the part regarding the sacrifice of teachers. I know that you are a teacher, so I wanted to pay that respect. I did not watch the portion on the socioeconomic considerations, simply because those do not factor into my own decision making when acting in my primary role, which is protecting my child. Why that's even on the table for this discussion I'm not sure.

My main problem with this video is that it fails to take into consideration the current state of the American school system. For any of this to work, significant expenditure of funds and procurement of materials already facing shortages needs to happen. I will leave this video to counter yours. If you think you have solutions to what this fellow says, I'd be open to hearing them, because I'm honestly rooting for a good outcome for you guys. (The title of the video is somewhat misleading, the entire is about return to school, using what happened with the conference as a framing tool).



Were I American, and facing the decision to send my seven year old (full disclosure, he's considered high risk, given existing breathing issues - he needs a puffer when he gets a simple cold, he would not make it through this) back to school, I would need to have these concerns addressed.

For a point of comparison, in Ontario the decision to reopen schools has not been finalized, but any reopening strategy will include an option for parents to keep their kids home and have teacher assisted remote learning, that much has been promised by our local school board. We will, of course, be taking advantage of this, because of our concerns, as well as the realization that the measures required to reopen schools during a pandemic would utterly defeat the notion of a "normal" school experience. I'm not sure what "normal" socialization these guys think will happen. Schools will be prisons, or they will be death factories, as children bring this thing home to their parents and grandparents. I simply do not see how this can be done, and this has nothing to do with partisanship, only the little guy who is sitting happily playing video games with his buddies online right now a few feet away from me, not suffering social isolation at all.
 
Josie said:
I feel...……… apprehensive. Everyone wants things to get back to normal, but we also just can't act like nothing is happening. I agree with the doctor in this video that said we should get back to school but take the upmost precautions in keeping everyone healthy. I'm thinking about those kids who need school --- not just academically --- but socially, emotionally. For some of our students, school is their only happy place.
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When I was in school, I can say I’d have been happy staying away long as possible. My supervisor at work, however, has a daughter that’s been somewhat depressed. It’s a tough call for everyone involved.
 
Josie said:
Yes, exactly. I do feel a lot more panicky than not about it all, though. I just wonder what's going to happen when a teacher gets sick. The entire class stays home quarantined for 2 weeks?
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Suggestion for you to recommend for the school. Hold as much class as you can outside. Talk to the school administrators about acquiring UVC light sources to put into the HVAC ducts to kill the recirculated airborne virus and see if they can get handheld UV or UVC lights sources to periodically sterilize the classroom. UVC is one of the ways hospitals sterilize their rooms and HVAC. You will need training with the UVC lights as some of them are quite dangerous if mishandled. these measures are in addition to your standard procedures. They are simply ways to make it more difficult to transmit the virus readily. Masks you can do but its over kill because benefit is quite negligible unless using minimum N-95 spec properly fitted and used masks. Children are not going to keep the masks on or keep them on correctly for any lengthy period of time. The reason masks even N-95 masks are marginal protection as it has been found that there are other places of virus load besides your breath, to include rectal gas emission, skin surface and sweat amongst other sources. The virus tends to be more readily acquired through sustained close contact with an active carrier. (15+ minutes exposure according most studies.)
 
Josie said:
I feel...……… apprehensive. Everyone wants things to get back to normal, but we also just can't act like nothing is happening. I agree with the doctor in this video that said we should get back to school but take the upmost precautions in keeping everyone healthy. I'm thinking about those kids who need school --- not just academically --- but socially, emotionally. For some of our students, school is their only happy place.
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What age group do you teach? When other countries opened up schools, they found that children ages 10 and under do not transmit the virus very well, but after that, the 11 and above transmit it the same as adults. This has implications to the criteria and precautions one should take.
Things like 'wearing masks and putting the desks further apart'
 
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Helix said:
all i know is that reopening schools will put my wife and kid on the front lines, and Republican governors are only doing it to kiss his orange ass. no thanks.
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they're doing it only so that one man has a better chance to win one election that happens every 4 years.



we need a better word than deplorable.
 
CaughtInThe said:
they're doing it only so that one man has a better chance to win one election that happens every 4 years.



we need a better word than deplorable.
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one would think that a ****load of sick kids wouldn't be a great vote generator, but that requires thought.
 
Helix said:
one would think that a ****load of sick kids wouldn't be a great vote generator, but that requires thought.
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i had this conversation this past weekend.

do the math. if they send kids back to school when do the bulk of infections (and potential death) "start"?
 
OlNate said:
Heya Josie.. :)

So, I watched most of your video...not all of it, I'll be honest, but I wanted to watch at least as much of it as I plan to ask you to watch of mine - I got to 14:37, because I wanted to hear the part regarding the sacrifice of teachers. I know that you are a teacher, so I wanted to pay that respect. I did not watch the portion on the socioeconomic considerations, simply because those do not factor into my own decision making when acting in my primary role, which is protecting my child. Why that's even on the table for this discussion I'm not sure.

My main problem with this video is that it fails to take into consideration the current state of the American school system. For any of this to work, significant expenditure of funds and procurement of materials already facing shortages needs to happen. I will leave this video to counter yours. If you think you have solutions to what this fellow says, I'd be open to hearing them, because I'm honestly rooting for a good outcome for you guys. (The title of the video is somewhat misleading, the entire is about return to school, using what happened with the conference as a framing tool).



Were I American, and facing the decision to send my seven year old (full disclosure, he's considered high risk, given existing breathing issues - he needs a puffer when he gets a simple cold, he would not make it through this) back to school, I would need to have these concerns addressed.

For a point of comparison, in Ontario the decision to reopen schools has not been finalized, but any reopening strategy will include an option for parents to keep their kids home and have teacher assisted remote learning, that much has been promised by our local school board. We will, of course, be taking advantage of this, because of our concerns, as well as the realization that the measures required to reopen schools during a pandemic would utterly defeat the notion of a "normal" school experience. I'm not sure what "normal" socialization these guys think will happen. Schools will be prisons, or they will be death factories, as children bring this thing home to their parents and grandparents. I simply do not see how this can be done, and this has nothing to do with partisanship, only the little guy who is sitting happily playing video games with his buddies online right now a few feet away from me, not suffering social isolation at all.
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He makes very good points all the way through. I've been saying for awhile now that we can't expect kindergartners and first graders to wear a mask all day long. It will be unsanitary in no time. They also don't understand social distancing - they're kids. What I think many schools are doing is offering remote learning only (which is what I would choose if I had school-aged children) and cutting the student population in half where only 10 or 12 kids are in a room during the day, the other half of the class doing remote learning and then they switch the next day. I have suggested to my admins that the days be cut in half by morning/afternoon since little kids aren't going to be able to handle this all day long. I don't know if that suggestion is going to fly.

In terms of cleaning supplies, I'm worried about that too. I've already ordered a crap ton of stuff with school money. Hopefully all of it will be available. I ordered enough stuff for everyone to have individual classroom supplies and 5 gallons of hand sanitizer. I know our custodial staff is being trained on how to sanitize all surfaces. Our buses, I believe, are going to run in shifts so our kids will come in at staggered times in order for social distancing on buses, temperature checks of everyone and sanitizing when they get off the bus. There's no way in hell that most of the students at my school will be bringing their own food. I believe the cafeteria staff are already working on what lunch will look like too.

I know. It's going to be a ****show. We teachers have been feeling that stress for awhile now.
 
RAMOSS said:
What age group do you teach? When other countries opened up schools, they found that children ages 10 and under do not transmit the virus very well, but after that, the 11 and above transmit it the same as adults. This has implications to the criteria and precautions one should take.
Things like 'wearing masks and putting the desks further apart'
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I teach children under 10 years old.
 
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