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Our Constitution was Shortsighted

CMPancake said:
The Constitution was written before the invention of toilet paper. We are following the word of a bunch of slave owners with poopy buttholes like it's gospel. I hate it here.
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Then leave, I'll send you money if you sign a contract to move to another country. Amazing, you swore an oath to that document. Wow.
 
Gaius46 said:
People who claim that the Constitution forbids the government from ordering people to wear masks are actually almost right in their own idiotic way. It does forbid the Federal government from forcing people to. It gives that power to the states.

A state order to wear masks in public is Constitutional.
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The amount of stupidity being espoused is pretty amazing...
 
AlphaOmega said:
False. If you are worried about disease such as covid...the forefathers gave you the freedom to leave the country and live anywhere you want that you feel will keep you safe from disease.
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The forefathers also gave power to the states to protect the health of the states and they have all passed laws allowing them to do so...

State Quarantine and Isolation Statutes
 
Gaius46 said:
People who claim that the Constitution forbids the government from ordering people to wear masks are actually almost right in their own idiotic way. It does forbid the Federal government from forcing people to. It gives that power to the states.

A state order to wear masks in public is Constitutional.
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Only if they do so on an individual by individual basis in a court of law. Neither the federal government nor the States may deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property without due process of law. If they want to mandate a quarantine, or require masks be worn, then they must provide evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law that the accused is infected, contagious, and an immanent threat to the public on an individual basis. The burden of proof also falls on the government.
 
Glitch said:
Only if they do so on an individual by individual basis in a court of law. Neither the federal government nor the States may deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property without due process of law. If they want to mandate a quarantine, or require masks be worn, then they must provide evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law that the accused is infected, contagious, and an immanent threat to the public on an individual basis. The burden of proof also falls on the government.
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Complete BS... You keep saying this over and over and have for months yet no court has ruled that a state can't impose the restrictions they have been imposing. When are we going to see some big win in court?
 
BlueTex said:
Complete BS... You keep saying this over and over and have for months yet no court has ruled that a state can't impose the restrictions they have been imposing. When are we going to see some big win in court?
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You might want to actually read those prior posts of mine. I have repeatedly cited Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905):
While a local regulation, even if based on the acknowledged police power of a State, must always yield in case of conflict with the exercise by the General Government of any power it possesses under the Constitution, the mode or manner of exercising its police power is wholly within the discretion of the State so long as the Constitution of the United States is not contravened, or any right granted or secured thereby is not infringed, or not exercised in such an arbitrary and oppressive manner as to justify the interference of the courts to prevent wrong and oppression.
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Both the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments require due process of law anytime either the federal or State governments seek to deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property.

Fifth Amendment of the US Constitution:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
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Fourteenth Amendment, Section 1 of the US Constitution:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
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ldsrptcvt said:
After dueling for weeks about how a country should be able to protect itself from fatal epidemics, I've come to the conclusion that our founding fathers made no allowance for rapid containment of contagious diseases. Thus they have let us down and impede us in any war on disease, no mater how contagious and fatal. Constitutional barriers will kill us all in the end, because really bad diseases are in the pipeline, but we have no way to respond quickly as a nation. Oh well, all empires come to an end.
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I disagree. Your constitution was not shortsighted, because at the time it was a revolutionary document and in some ways it still is. You can say the same of the Bible, Koran and other old documents and books. But they were based on the times and the people that wrote it.

The problem with the American constitution, is that it was written by a bunch of white racist sexist men, during a time when that was the standard. The document it self reflects this. We are not in those times anymore and a constitution should reflect the current times as much as possible, and not something that happened 250 years ago.

Soi we change over time, and so should any constitution. Now the US constitution has changed, but not enough. And it has not been "updated" to meet modern standards, and this leads to interpretation issues which should NOT happen on a regular basis. Lets put it this way, I come from a country where the latest version of our constitution was made in the 1950s. We rarely have issues about it in the court system, because the conditions is modern and very explicit on the rules.

Now the US constitution has much going for it, but also much going against it. Look at the whole "right to bare arms". No founding father would ever imagine that arms would be guns that could shoot 100s of bullets a minute or rocket launchers or tanks. And yet because of this outdated principle, the US has been going through a gun crime problem for a long long time. This whole second amendment crap prevents common sense legislation on guns, because it is up to interpretation. It should not be.

Then there is the whole state vs federal issue. Again down to interpretation and it was for the longest time used as an excuse to continue defacto slavery despite slavery being banned.

Basically no constitution should be so vague or open to interpretation.
 
Glitch said:
You might want to actually read those prior posts of mine. I have repeatedly cited Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905):


Both the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments require due process of law anytime either the federal or State governments seek to deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property.

Fifth Amendment of the US Constitution:


Fourteenth Amendment, Section 1 of the US Constitution:
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Your interpretation of Jacobson v. Massachusetts would mean that no state could have food safety laws without taking each food vendor to court first. Obviously, that's not the case.

And please cite the number of cases that have been won in federal court in the last few months? Notice no state has suspended any of their restrictions based on a court order (only modified some in a few cases where courts have ruled that didn't apply equally)?
 
Glitch said:
Only if they do so on an individual by individual basis in a court of law. Neither the federal government nor the States may deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property without due process of law. If they want to mandate a quarantine, or require masks be worn, then they must provide evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law that the accused is infected, contagious, and an immanent threat to the public on an individual basis. The burden of proof also falls on the government.
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Dealing with medical emergency falls under the police powers reserved to the states under the 10th amendment and governors either based on those police powers or specifically in state law have wide ranging powers to deal with medical emergencies.

We can debate whether or not they should have those powers or whether your liberty should be curtailed during a pandemic but as a matter of Constitutional and state law they have the power to force you to wear a mask in public.
 
Glitch said:
You might want to actually read those prior posts of mine. I have repeatedly cited Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905):


Both the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments require due process of law anytime either the federal or State governments seek to deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property.

Fifth Amendment of the US Constitution:


Fourteenth Amendment, Section 1 of the US Constitution:
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How is due process implicated in a state order to wear a mask?
 
ldsrptcvt said:
In all my discussions with conservatives, they insist the Constitution strictly forbids even temporary restrictions on individual rights in crises such as epidemics. One guy keeps insisting that no regional (let alone national) mandate such as mask wearing or quarantines can be legally enforced without each and every individual getting a court order - i.e. due process of law - and even a doctor's diagnosis is insufficient until presented in court. Can you imagine how impossible that would be in the case of a highly contagious, highly fatal new virus? Obviously the Constitution's inflexibility would tie our hands.
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We have a uniformed "health corps" that was created to help with such contingencies. Our welfare clause is General and any solutions must be intelligently designed from the top, down.
 
ldsrptcvt said:
After dueling for weeks about how a country should be able to protect itself from fatal epidemics, I've come to the conclusion that our founding fathers made no allowance for rapid containment of contagious diseases. Thus they have let us down and impede us in any war on disease, no mater how contagious and fatal. Constitutional barriers will kill us all in the end, because really bad diseases are in the pipeline, but we have no way to respond quickly as a nation. Oh well, all empires come to an end.
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The constitution is a framework that allows Congress and the States wide latitude to handle a multitude of problems with solutions.

It's not the constitution that is at fault. It is leaders who really aren't interested in solving the actual problem, but are only interested in their re-election chances.
 
Glitch said:
Our founders valued individual liberty. It is not only one of the founding principles in the Declaration of Independence, but it is stated that liberty will be protected in several locations within the US Constitution. Patrick Henry even prioritized liberty over life itself with his famous 1775 "Give me liberty, or give me death!" speech. However, just to be clear, life is also a founding principle in the Declaration of Independence, and also protected by the US Constitution as equally as liberty.

If you truly have an issue with the founding principles of the United States of America, and I know all Democrats do, then you should seriously consider finding yourself another country that doesn't value life or liberty. Because as long as you remain in this country, you will be fought by those who wish to preserve the founding principles of the nation, and you will lose.
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True enough and good advice. I am one of those actively looking to relocate to another country. I'm in search of a country that offers a better quality of life overall. A more social government. America's life or liberty approach has almost become biblical, and that lack of rational thinking prevents a government from implementing what the people want because people don't truly have an impact on elections as much as lobby's and donations do. Therefore we slip into an Oligarchy situation. We have a constitution which allows take over from any entity that has the money to control it. It's a hostile environment and you can tell the difference watching the people of America fight for the divide, which is easily controlled with money.

Countries that prevent intrusion from big-money influences have a much better quality of life and a unity you can't find here in America. Most Americans hold on to the idea of the get rich quick scheme and feel completely justified, a constitution in hand, to step on whoever it takes to survive. I hardly blame them but yes, looking for another way of life is encouraged for those who feel an Ologarcy system lacks fairness and doesn't offer a quality of life that included health, education, and welfare for its people. America is every man for themselves and that caveman mentality can really wear you down.

On top of that, the religious influence in politics and the political influence in public health is making it near impossible to come together as a nation and fight or protect ourselves from anything. It has left us broke, afraid, and very vulnerable. You just can't get it together last minute in an emergency. These measures need to be in place before the emergency arises and Americans just aren't used to that kind of security. Our government and our people live paycheck to paycheck. It's the kind of mix that brings a country down a notch. We keep sliding down the quality of life list to the point that some of our states are now on par with 3rd world countries. And with that, the divide will just increase.

Leave if you can. There are a lot of countries out there that pull off what America claims is impossible. There are countries where it really matters who you vote for, and what you want and good quality of life.
 
ldsrptcvt said:
After dueling for weeks about how a country should be able to protect itself from fatal epidemics, I've come to the conclusion that our founding fathers made no allowance for rapid containment of contagious diseases. Thus they have let us down and impede us in any war on disease, no mater how contagious and fatal. Constitutional barriers will kill us all in the end, because really bad diseases are in the pipeline, but we have no way to respond quickly as a nation. Oh well, all empires come to an end.
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The law says you have to wear pants if you go outside in public.

If that's a law, making people wear masks when they go outside in public is easy to do. Especially during a pandemic.

Citizens are being difficult during this pandemic instead of helpful, that's the problem.
 
CMPancake said:
The Constitution was written before the invention of toilet paper. We are following the word of a bunch of slave owners with poopy buttholes like it's gospel. I hate it here.
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you are welcome to leave and start your own country on an island somewhere
 
ldsrptcvt said:
and yet conservatives insist there is no flexibility - the Constitution is the word of GOD, perfect as is. That's why we can't force people to wear masks or even self-quarantine. The Constitution is based on such a high degree of individual freedom that, in a crisis, people can run around doing whatever they want even if it endangers others.
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unless the President (any president) wants to declare martial law, and run this country like China runs theirs, no....

You cant force a man or a woman to wear a mask

Should they want to? yeah, for the sake of the health of others

But that isnt the way we are all made is it? Some people are selfish assholes, and dont care who they hurt (the riots prove that)

Do you want to live in China or Russia where you can be jailed for not wearing a mask?

is that what we have become?
 
ldsrptcvt said:
After dueling for weeks about how a country should be able to protect itself from fatal epidemics, I've come to the conclusion that our founding fathers made no allowance for rapid containment of contagious diseases. Thus they have let us down and impede us in any war on disease, no mater how contagious and fatal. Constitutional barriers will kill us all in the end, because really bad diseases are in the pipeline, but we have no way to respond quickly as a nation. Oh well, all empires come to an end.
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The founder knew usurpers like you would use such provisions as an excuse, they weren't left out by accident.
 
swing_voter said:
The law says you have to wear pants if you go outside in public.

If that's a law, making people wear masks when they go outside in public is easy to do. Especially during a pandemic.

Citizens are being difficult during this pandemic instead of helpful, that's the problem.
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Rebels without a Cause, like usual.
 
ldsrptcvt said:
But we will never survive a really serious fatal epidemic; Covid 19 was our test and we are failing; if this virus had a higher fatality rate, we'd be up **** creek.
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Umm. . .

COVID 19 IS a really serious fatal pandemic.

Over 130,000 Americans would testify to that.

If they were alive, that is. ;)
 
Gaius46 said:
Dealing with medical emergency falls under the police powers reserved to the states under the 10th amendment and governors either based on those police powers or specifically in state law have wide ranging powers to deal with medical emergencies.

We can debate whether or not they should have those powers or whether your liberty should be curtailed during a pandemic but as a matter of Constitutional and state law they have the power to force you to wear a mask in public.
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I never said that they didn't have that power. If you recall, I said that that neither the State nor the federal government may violate the US Constitution when exercising those police powers. That means they must provide due process of law for each and every individual they seek to quarantine, or require to wear a mask, or require to socially distance. All three are an infringement on individual liberty. Only after government has proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law, on an individual by individual basis, may they deprive us of our liberty.

We demand no less for those the government accuses of being criminals. If government accuses someone of a crime before they can take away their liberty and imprison them they must first prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they committed the crime. Only after due process of law may government deprive anyone of their life, liberty, or property, not before.
 
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Gaius46 said:
How is due process implicated in a state order to wear a mask?
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Any government mandate that seeks to deprive me of my liberty requires due process of law before the mandate can be implemented. Demanding I wear a mask is an infringement on my liberty, therefore government is required to prove their case in a court of law.

They can ask, and I can chose to volunteer, but they cannot enforce any mandate without due process of law. That means all fines for not wearing a mask or for not social distancing are a violation of both the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments and can be ignored because no court in the US will uphold them.
 
Ginger Ale said:
True enough and good advice. I am one of those actively looking to relocate to another country. I'm in search of a country that offers a better quality of life overall. A more social government. America's life or liberty approach has almost become biblical, and that lack of rational thinking prevents a government from implementing what the people want because people don't truly have an impact on elections as much as lobby's and donations do. Therefore we slip into an Oligarchy situation. We have a constitution which allows take over from any entity that has the money to control it. It's a hostile environment and you can tell the difference watching the people of America fight for the divide, which is easily controlled with money.

Countries that prevent intrusion from big-money influences have a much better quality of life and a unity you can't find here in America. Most Americans hold on to the idea of the get rich quick scheme and feel completely justified, a constitution in hand, to step on whoever it takes to survive. I hardly blame them but yes, looking for another way of life is encouraged for those who feel an Ologarcy system lacks fairness and doesn't offer a quality of life that included health, education, and welfare for its people. America is every man for themselves and that caveman mentality can really wear you down.

On top of that, the religious influence in politics and the political influence in public health is making it near impossible to come together as a nation and fight or protect ourselves from anything. It has left us broke, afraid, and very vulnerable. You just can't get it together last minute in an emergency. These measures need to be in place before the emergency arises and Americans just aren't used to that kind of security. Our government and our people live paycheck to paycheck. It's the kind of mix that brings a country down a notch. We keep sliding down the quality of life list to the point that some of our states are now on par with 3rd world countries. And with that, the divide will just increase.

Leave if you can. There are a lot of countries out there that pull off what America claims is impossible. There are countries where it really matters who you vote for, and what you want and good quality of life.
Click to expand...

I have no intention of leaving. I fully support the founding principles of the nation, and even swore to protect and defend the Supreme Law of the Land. I have lived in other countries, and I have read the constitutions of even more countries. Nowhere on this planet will you find a nation, other than the US, that upholds the Bill of Rights you take for granted. Even the UK arrests on average 9 people every day for what they post on-line. Once you leave the US forget about free speech, the right to your own religious beliefs, freedom of association, or the right to peacefully assemble, and that is just the First Amendment. Those protected rights can only found in the US.

I think more people should leave the US and live in other countries for a period of time. Perhaps it will give them a better appreciation for what they cannot get anywhere else, except in the US.
 
gdgyva said:
unless the President (any president) wants to declare martial law, and run this country like China runs theirs, no....

You cant force a man or a woman to wear a mask

Should they want to? yeah, for the sake of the health of others

But that isnt the way we are all made is it? Some people are selfish assholes, and dont care who they hurt (the riots prove that)

Do you want to live in China or Russia where you can be jailed for not wearing a mask?

is that what we have become?
Click to expand...

The US Constitution may not be superseded by any declaration of emergency, including Martial Law.
 
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