• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Some worry 'Operation Warp Speed' plays into anti-vaccination movement's hands

JacksinPA

JacksinPA

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
26,290
Reaction score
16,771
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Some worry 'Operation Warp Speed' plays into anti-vaccination movement's hands | TheHill

Some worry 'Operation Warp Speed' plays into anti-vaccination movement's hands

President Trump’s rapid push for a COVID-19 vaccine by the end of the year may be playing into hands of the anti-vaccine community, which has already used the coronavirus crisis to further its conspiracy claims about the safety of vaccines.

The Trump administration is racing to get a vaccine to the market quickly with “Operation Warp Speed.”

The project’s goal is to have 300 million vaccine doses available by January, an accelerated version of the administration’s previous projections of needing 12 to 18 months to get a vaccine ready for the public.
======================================================================
My thoughts on this:

1. The chances of having a reliable & effective vaccine available for distribution to 300 million people by the end of the year is highly improbable based simply on the logistics & the ways that vaccines are developed.

2. Some trial vaccines have made the recipients very ill.

3. The biology of the coronavirus S protein, on which the Moderna vaccine is based, is frought with inherent problems. I've posted about these before.

4. Is Trump using the DPA to ready the syringes & associated dispensers with which to administer this vaccine? You don't just throw a switch & these things suddenly appear.

5. Many people, myself & anti-vaxxers included, are going to wait to find out the results of the initial application of a new vaccine.

6. Dozens of different vaccines are being developed by different pharma companies. Besides the necessary clinical trials for each, how long will comparison evaluation trials between these contenders take? The end of the year is only 6+ months away, not a realistic time frame to get all this accomplished by Trump's deadline.
 
JacksinPA said:
Some worry 'Operation Warp Speed' plays into anti-vaccination movement's hands | TheHill

Some worry 'Operation Warp Speed' plays into anti-vaccination movement's hands

President Trump’s rapid push for a COVID-19 vaccine by the end of the year may be playing into hands of the anti-vaccine community, which has already used the coronavirus crisis to further its conspiracy claims about the safety of vaccines.

The Trump administration is racing to get a vaccine to the market quickly with “Operation Warp Speed.”

The project’s goal is to have 300 million vaccine doses available by January, an accelerated version of the administration’s previous projections of needing 12 to 18 months to get a vaccine ready for the public.
======================================================================
My thoughts on this:

1. The chances of having a reliable & effective vaccine available for distribution to 300 million people by the end of the year is highly improbable based simply on the logistics & the ways that vaccines are developed.

2. Some trial vaccines have made the recipients very ill.

3. The biology of the coronavirus S protein, on which the Moderna vaccine is based, is frought with inherent problems. I've posted about these before.

4. Is Trump using the DPA to ready the syringes & associated dispensers with which to administer this vaccine? You don't just throw a switch & these things suddenly appear.

5. Many people, myself & anti-vaxxers included, are going to wait to find out the results of the initial application of a new vaccine.

6. Dozens of different vaccines are being developed by different pharma companies. Besides the necessary clinical trials for each, how long will comparison evaluation trials between these contenders take? The end of the year is only 6+ months away, not a realistic time frame to get all this accomplished by Trump's deadline.
Click to expand...

The delicious paradox of this is that so many members of the Cult of Dirtbag are climate change science deniers, anti-vaxxers and science deniers or scientific luddites in general.
 
JacksinPA said:
Some worry 'Operation Warp Speed' plays into anti-vaccination movement's hands | TheHill

Some worry 'Operation Warp Speed' plays into anti-vaccination movement's hands

President Trump’s rapid push for a COVID-19 vaccine by the end of the year may be playing into hands of the anti-vaccine community, which has already used the coronavirus crisis to further its conspiracy claims about the safety of vaccines.

The Trump administration is racing to get a vaccine to the market quickly with “Operation Warp Speed.”

The project’s goal is to have 300 million vaccine doses available by January, an accelerated version of the administration’s previous projections of needing 12 to 18 months to get a vaccine ready for the public.
======================================================================
My thoughts on this:

1. The chances of having a reliable & effective vaccine available for distribution to 300 million people by the end of the year is highly improbable based simply on the logistics & the ways that vaccines are developed.

2. Some trial vaccines have made the recipients very ill.

3. The biology of the coronavirus S protein, on which the Moderna vaccine is based, is frought with inherent problems. I've posted about these before.

4. Is Trump using the DPA to ready the syringes & associated dispensers with which to administer this vaccine? You don't just throw a switch & these things suddenly appear.

5. Many people, myself & anti-vaxxers included, are going to wait to find out the results of the initial application of a new vaccine.

6. Dozens of different vaccines are being developed by different pharma companies. Besides the necessary clinical trials for each, how long will comparison evaluation trials between these contenders take? The end of the year is only 6+ months away, not a realistic time frame to get all this accomplished by Trump's deadline.
Click to expand...
Fauci said something the other day that he believed EOY was feasible for a distributable vaccine. I'm not sure that to be effective the entire population has to be vaccinated; That's never been the case with various versions of the flu in previous years. I think a focus on the most vulnerable and a re-opening of the country will prove beneficial.
As to the DPA - worked pretty fast with ventilators and other equipment. I think distribution and the personnel to administer the shots may be more of a bottleneck.
 
JacksinPA said:
6. Dozens of different vaccines are being developed by different pharma companies. Besides the necessary clinical trials for each, how long will comparison evaluation trials between these contenders take?
Click to expand...

Why do you think anyone will wait for such comparisons? I'd guess first one to be shown it's "good enough" will be pushed out. If later another one is even better, it will replace the first one as preferred option, etc. (unless it's developed by Chinese or Europe and Trump will just ignore it then - if he is still in the office then)
 
I really worry for the safety of the people who get the vaccine before it is really ready. It seems like the plan is to have a ton of human trials who are unaware that they are part of trials. We will have a bunch of people line up for a haphazardly tested vaccine at the end of the year, and then those people will let us know what side effects and risks it poses.
 
JacksinPA said:
Some worry 'Operation Warp Speed' plays into anti-vaccination movement's hands | TheHill

Some worry 'Operation Warp Speed' plays into anti-vaccination movement's hands

President Trump’s rapid push for a COVID-19 vaccine by the end of the year may be playing into hands of the anti-vaccine community, which has already used the coronavirus crisis to further its conspiracy claims about the safety of vaccines.

The Trump administration is racing to get a vaccine to the market quickly with “Operation Warp Speed.”

The project’s goal is to have 300 million vaccine doses available by January, an accelerated version of the administration’s previous projections of needing 12 to 18 months to get a vaccine ready for the public.
======================================================================
My thoughts on this:

1. The chances of having a reliable & effective vaccine available for distribution to 300 million people by the end of the year is highly improbable based simply on the logistics & the ways that vaccines are developed.

2. Some trial vaccines have made the recipients very ill.

3. The biology of the coronavirus S protein, on which the Moderna vaccine is based, is frought with inherent problems. I've posted about these before.

4. Is Trump using the DPA to ready the syringes & associated dispensers with which to administer this vaccine? You don't just throw a switch & these things suddenly appear.

5. Many people, myself & anti-vaxxers included, are going to wait to find out the results of the initial application of a new vaccine.

6. Dozens of different vaccines are being developed by different pharma companies. Besides the necessary clinical trials for each, how long will comparison evaluation trials between these contenders take? The end of the year is only 6+ months away, not a realistic time frame to get all this accomplished by Trump's deadline.
Click to expand...

I think they should have gone to Ludicrous Speed!
 
Xilnik said:
I really worry for the safety of the people who get the vaccine before it is really ready. It seems like the plan is to have a ton of human trials who are unaware that they are part of trials. We will have a bunch of people line up for a haphazardly tested vaccine at the end of the year, and then those people will let us know what side effects and risks it poses.
Click to expand...

Cool let's start with everyone in the WH, led the way Donnie.
 
Slavister said:
Why do you think anyone will wait for such comparisons? I'd guess first one to be shown it's "good enough" will be pushed out. If later another one is even better, it will replace the first one as preferred option, etc. (unless it's developed by Chinese or Europe and Trump will just ignore it then - if he is still in the office then)
Click to expand...

Not every candidate will be both safe & effective, at least by degree.

The S protein on which the Moderna vaccine is based, has a high mutation rate & is therefore highly variable in its amino acid sequence, meaning different strains have already appeared that will respond differently. A vaccine developed on the basis of strain A might have little or no protective effect on infection by strains B or C. As with the current seasonal flu vaccine, this might require the development of multiple vaccines that are combined in order to give a safe & effective vaccine that covers all the strains seen up to that point.
 
digitusmedius said:
The delicious paradox of this is that so many members of the Cult of Dirtbag are climate change science deniers, anti-vaxxers and science deniers or scientific luddites in general.
Click to expand...

As the self-proclaimed international spokesman for Luddites United For Change Backwards" I hereby require you to unconditionally withdraw that totally unjustified slur on all Luddites.
 
JacksinPA said:
Not every candidate will be both safe & effective, at least by degree.

The S protein on which the Moderna vaccine is based, has a high mutation rate & is therefore highly variable in its amino acid sequence, meaning different strains have already appeared that will respond differently. A vaccine developed on the basis of strain A might have little or no protective effect on infection by strains B or C. As with the current seasonal flu vaccine, this might require the development of multiple vaccines that are combined in order to give a safe & effective vaccine that covers all the strains seen up to that point.
Click to expand...

Yes, so if A is available before B or C, they might start with distributing A rather than waiting for B and C. Later, they might do B/C ones or a combined one I suppose... ?
 
I've posted a few times that we are risking a great deal rushing into vaccines...that any mistakes will only increase distrust and more anti-vaccer resistance.

We saw a huge jump in vaccines after the 1970s swine flu debacle, possibly the birth of the anti-vaccer movement. Before that, Americans still pretty much viewed vaccination as the miracle that arrived with Jonas Salk and the polio vaccine (that one exemplified vaccination success).




This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa
Click to expand...
 
Lursa said:
I've posted a few times that we are risking a great deal rushing into vaccines...that any mistakes will only increase distrust and more anti-vaccer resistance.

We saw a huge jump in vaccines after the 1970s swine flu debacle, possibly the birth of the anti-vaccer movement. Before that, Americans still pretty much viewed vaccination as the miracle that arrived with Jonas Salk and the polio vaccine (that one exemplified vaccination success).
Click to expand...

The founder of modern vaccinology was Edward Jenner. See A brief history of vaccination | Immunisation Advisory Centre
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
As the self-proclaimed international spokesman for Luddites United For Change Backwards" I hereby require you to unconditionally withdraw that totally unjustified slur on all Luddites.
Click to expand...

No slur on all Luddites......only the modern science-denying ones.
 
Slavister said:
Yes, so if A is available before B or C, they might start with distributing A rather than waiting for B and C. Later, they might do B/C ones or a combined one I suppose... ?
Click to expand...

But if A doesn't work, are they coming back to be experimented on by B and/or C after they've already had COVID-19 (or COVID-21 by that time) since they will already have gained at least some immunity?
 
digitusmedius said:
No slur on all Luddites......only the modern science-denying ones.
Click to expand...

Trump's rush to score political points obviates science. No sense in ignoring it when it will neglected anyway?
 
JacksinPA said:
The founder of modern vaccinology was Edward Jenner. See A brief history of vaccination | Immunisation Advisory Centre
Click to expand...

OH. MY. GOD.

I have a library of at least 50 books on epidemiology. I'm happy to share my booklist, it's in a spreadsheet linked to Amazon.

I made a generalization, one that most Americans, even today, are familiar with. That was the point of that statement. How many Americans are familiar with EJ, do you think? :roll:



I did make a typo tho, it should read "We saw a huge jump in distrust in vaccines after..."




This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa
Click to expand...
 
Simply socially and publicly isolate the anti-vaxxers legally
 
Lursa said:
OH. MY. GOD.

I have a library of at least 50 books on epidemiology. I'm happy to share my booklist, it's in a spreadsheet linked to Amazon.

I made a generalization, one that most Americans, even today, are familiar with. That was the point of that statement.
Click to expand...

So, you already know this but I thought I'd toss it out:
Variolation - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
Variolation, the practice of infecting people with low doses of smallpox, dates back to 1000 BC in India. It would generally induce a mild form of the disease, which would prevent the person from being re-infected.
Click to expand...
 
I have worried from the moment of the "warp speed" proclamation that this would add fuel to the anti-vax fire.

Not a good place to be.

Couldn't he have just said that the US is putting great resources into finding a safe and effective vaccine? Dude had to give a ridiculous timeline. Might as well have promised he would release his tax returns and Obama's Kenyan birth certificate at that time and the vaccine would be "beautiful"

Hell, he has shown his focus on (perceived) style over substance with his crazy push for hydroxychloroquine and then saying it already after it flopped.

He needs to STHU with anything medical or science related.
 
digitusmedius said:
So, you already know this but I thought I'd toss it out:
Variolation - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
Click to expand...

Yes. Epidemiology is an incredibly amazing discipline.

The Ghost Map, Steven Johnson

The Coming Plague, Laurie Garrett

are 2 excellent, easy reads if you havent already, with a great perspective and details on epidemiology, including its history.

And this one is perfect for the current crisis:

Spillover: Animal Infections and the Next Human Pandemic, David Quammen
 
digitusmedius said:
The delicious paradox of this is that so many members of the Cult of Dirtbag are climate change science deniers, anti-vaxxers and science deniers or scientific luddites in general.
Click to expand...

Over the top emotional posting..... reaching the breaking point again? :lamo
 
Xilnik said:
I really worry for the safety of the people who get the vaccine before it is really ready. It seems like the plan is to have a ton of human trials who are unaware that they are part of trials. We will have a bunch of people line up for a haphazardly tested vaccine at the end of the year, and then those people will let us know what side effects and risks it poses.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be ethical or even legal to trial possibly toxic chemicals on unsuspecting members of the public. As far as I am aware-in Britain anyway-clinical trials are always carried out with volunteer participants. Unfortunately the only way to determine the safety and efficacy of a human vaccine is to trial it in human subjects. For example:

NIH begins first-in-human trial of a universal influenza vaccine candidate | National Institutes of Health (NIH)
 
Last edited:
digitusmedius said:
No slur on all Luddites......only the modern science-denying ones.
Click to expand...

Some Luddites, such as myself, accept practical limits of what technologies we will embrace. For example, I have a flip phone & do not text. I do not have a video camera on my monitor because I can't think of anyone I'd care to visually converse with. I do not buy a new car every 2-5 years.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom