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Oregon...the latest revolt against oppression.

maxparrish said:
Look, either your playing dumb or are woefully unprepared to discuss this topic. Google it (e.g. Wisconsin).
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You imagine a rebellion that does not exist. A handful of Comicon boys wore their costumes to town hall.
 
mrjurrs said:
No, I mean public health experts.
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The people that make the masks are the experts in what their masks do and dont do. It says they dont stop viruses right on the box. I wonder why the government makes them put that warning on them. What do you think?
 
AlphaOmega said:
The people that make the masks are the experts in what their masks do and dont do. It says they dont stop viruses right on the box. I wonder why the government makes them put that warning on them. What do you think?
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I see what you are saying. You are right, the masks don't stop viruses. That is only a claim that people make when they don't understand what we are facing. Masks REDUCE spread. The reduction of spread allows the health system to maintain care levels for patients of all types. The virus will spread until a vaccine is developed, or herd immunity is reached. Masks help slow down the rate of spread.
 
ldsrptcvt said:
according to Nevada coronavirus closure orders violate civil liberties, some say | Las Vegas Review-Journal

41 states allow the governor to over-ride the legislature in emergencies. there has been no trouble in Connecticut; do you know exactly how many states are suing their governor - nothing but Wisconsin and Illinois comes up
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First, there are two issues:

a) Those governors, acting without consent of the legislature's of their states, that have exceeded the limited emergency powers granted and

b) Those governors that are following the written state laws but in their edicts over-ride the constitution and our fundamental and enumerated rights.

In 15 states scores of suits have been filed mostly on the basis of issue "a"; meaning that the governor is ignoring written law or violating regulatory requirements...several of those have been by state legislatures (Wisconsin, Michigan, and as I recall, Washington).

These are two distinct levels of moral transgression. They are either (or both) violating the consent of the government and/or violating individual human rights.

First and foremost I side with human rights, whether or not a majority wishes to repress them. And second, if a government official is going to issue edicts crushing those rights, at LEAST have the decency to obtain democratic consent.

Anything else, by definition, is a dictatorship or despotic rule... NO MATTER HOW WELL INTENTIONED.
 
mrjurrs said:
I see what you are saying. You are right, the masks don't stop viruses. That is only a claim that people make when they don't understand what we are facing. Masks REDUCE spread. The reduction of spread allows the health system to maintain care levels for patients of all types. The virus will spread until a vaccine is developed, or herd immunity is reached. Masks help slow down the rate of spread.
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There is no data that shows dust masks and bandanas slow the spread. If anything they are creating a false sense of security which could cause increase the spread. Heres how this is going to unroll. We will all eventually be exposed to this. Some of us unfortunately will die, those of us who dont will build immunity. If anyone here thinks a guy wearing a bandana or a dust mask is safer than someone without one at all, I would not stand close to anyone. You are going to be a participant in the advanced class Darwinian Theory.
 
AlphaOmega said:
There is no data that shows dust masks and bandanas slow the spread. If anything they are creating a false sense of security which could cause increase the spread. Heres how this is going to unroll. We will all eventually be exposed to this. Some of us unfortunately will die, those of us who dont will build immunity. If anyone here thinks a guy wearing a bandana or a dust mask is safer than someone without one at all, I would not stand close to anyone. You are going to be a participant in the advanced class Darwinian Theory.
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I'm curious to see how the next few weeks work out. With so many workers now wearing masks that obstruct their airway, it seems likely certain individuals will develop URI, as a friend of mine has already done.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I'm curious to see how the next few weeks work out. With so many workers now wearing masks that obstruct their airway, it seems likely certain individuals will develop URI, as a friend of mine has already done.
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oh totally. How many people do we honestly think are washing their masks daily? The human body didn't evolve to wear masks. Its only a matter of time before the masks become a source of lung infection all on their own. Wait until we see the first pictures of an elderly person dying of heat exhaustion as they stand in 90 degree heat waiting to buy groceries. This reminds me of when we were told to use re-useable bags for shopping. Now the same people say...and this is the best part...they are temporarily banned because they could spread germs. Wouldn't they always spread germs? Just me thinking logically.
 
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AlphaOmega said:
There is no data that shows dust masks and bandanas slow the spread. If anything they are creating a false sense of security which could cause increase the spread. Heres how this is going to unroll. We will all eventually be exposed to this. Some of us unfortunately will die, those of us who dont will build immunity. If anyone here thinks a guy wearing a bandana or a dust mask is safer than someone without one at all, I would not stand close to anyone. You are going to be a participant in the advanced class Darwinian Theory.
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Yawn...
Recommendation Regarding the Use of Cloth Face Coverings | CDC
 
AlphaOmega said:
There is no data that shows dust masks and bandanas slow the spread. If anything they are creating a false sense of security which could cause increase the spread. Heres how this is going to unroll. We will all eventually be exposed to this. Some of us unfortunately will die, those of us who dont will build immunity. If anyone here thinks a guy wearing a bandana or a dust mask is safer than someone without one at all, I would not stand close to anyone. You are going to be a participant in the advanced class Darwinian Theory.
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you still can't comprehend the strategy can you?
 
Thoreau72 said:
I'm curious to see how the next few weeks work out. With so many workers now wearing masks that obstruct their airway, it seems likely certain individuals will develop URI, as a friend of mine has already done.
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Uh, how is it that nurses can wear them day in and day out with no problem; or dental hygienists
 
mrjurrs said:
Yawn...
Recommendation Regarding the Use of Cloth Face Coverings | CDC
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No where in your link does it discuss how a cloth mask stops viruses. I'm one of those sticklers for details. Please discuss the science of how a bandana will stop a microscopic virus that passes right through it. A bandana wont even filter out sheetrock dust. Oh...and I especially love the people wearing the masks with breathing vents as they point at others not wearing masks. Thats special dumb.
 
AlphaOmega said:
There is no data that shows dust masks and bandanas slow the spread. If anything they are creating a false sense of security which could cause increase the spread. Heres how this is going to unroll. We will all eventually be exposed to this. Some of us unfortunately will die, those of us who dont will build immunity. If anyone here thinks a guy wearing a bandana or a dust mask is safer than someone without one at all, I would not stand close to anyone. You are going to be a participant in the advanced class Darwinian Theory.
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Is there no data which suggest exhaled breaths won't travel as far with a mask on?
 
maxparrish said:
Ya...that 'nasty' thing called freedom - makes one wonder why you don't live somewhere that it is in even shorter supply: Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Iran, Zimbabwe.

There are plenty of places where your ideological hatred of freedom is welcome.
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How crazy does one have to have to be to equate social distancing during a pandemic with life in North Korea? By the way, your orange hero has nothing but praise for Kim Jong Un. Seems like that would concern you.
 
maxparrish said:
Like so many COVID hotspots, grassroots and informal groups of citizens have arisen asserting their right to free. Much to the shock and resentment of many autocratic governors that have declared themselves to be unaccountable, unlimited, and untouchable for as long as they please (using the magic words "of this is a health emergency") the citizen patriots and public interest groups have had enough from their new overlords - they are under the impression that America is supposed to be a free Republic, one that rejected tyranny of the autocratic and royal sovereigns in 1776.

This isn't an arcane issue, its a fundamental challenge to the entire basis of the US Constitution that rejects the legitimacy of any government that operates under the assumption that the "the state" and its officials are the supreme source of divine and legitimate power. At its root, it is a battle between those who believe in the unalienable rights of man and of a government of and by the sovereign people, and those who thrill at bending the knee to a tyrant of absolute rule over a powerless legislature, civil society, community, and family.

Not four months ago the degree of power seized by state governors would have been unthinkable, even in a major national war. Nothing less than a civil war in the union could have begun to suggest that people could be incarcerated in their homes without trial, denied a source of living, arrested for looking at a sunset or for strolling through a park. And never has it been made illegal to go to school, or to go to church, or to give or obtain a haircut.

So far society has yet to confront the full implications of this oppression, both in human rights and in the destruction of civil society. But the recent suit in Oregon by many Churches and others against an arrogant governor is emblematic of this struggle. Like the governors of Minnesota, Michigan, and Wisconsin (among others) upon expiration of that state's 28 day time limit of the health emergency powers, she (like her peers) simple ignore the elected representatives and decree new powers of unlimited duration (even Hitler had to get permission to have such power by a vote from the Reichstag). And also like her peers, she has mined the law and found highly dubious unspecific "authorization" for her seizure of power so as to negate democracy...not unlike the methods of Maduro in Venezuela.

Mind you, this is not the most fundamental debate (which must be addressed) over Constitutional rights of the individual. But it is over democracy...the right of the people's representatives and signed laws to check the power of the single autocrat that issues whatever "executive orders" and criminal penalties she likes.

So as "liberalism" has now become the ideology of repression and state worship, we must fight... for now in courts and under the law. But if people want their freedoms back, it may well take more violent action - if so, it will be on the head of those who pushed the people too far.
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Violent action? Such as? Is it getting to that point with you 'patriots' that if the courts and the law don't give you what you want, more violent actions may be required to get what you want? Sounds to me what you really want is fascism.
 
bongsaway said:
Violent action? Such as? Is it getting to that point with you 'patriots' that if the courts and the law don't give you what you want, more violent actions may be required to get what you want? Sounds to me what you really want is fascism.
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What I really want is a free society. And what I don't want is the endless aggregation of oppression and loss of freedom imposed by statists. This latest excuse of stripping people of their rights to exercise their religion or to freely assemble has been a shock to those who are not in a state of oblivious soma. And before this becomes "normal" it is important that people react...strongly.

Now, since I wrote my opinions it is clearer that the worst of the lot are starting to back down. It is clearer that a measure of personal liberty will return - although how much remains to be seen. None the less push people fast enough and far enough, and what will happen won't be pretty.

And if it doesn't happen now (and I think it won't) it will if our overseers try this again in a second wave.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
How crazy does one have to have to be to equate social distancing during a pandemic with life in North Korea? By the way, your orange hero has nothing but praise for Kim Jong Un. Seems like that would concern you.
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I didn't equate, I suggested if he didn't like freedom he'd love it where it is in shorter supply than here: NK, Cuba, China, etc.
 
AlphaOmega said:
Your problem is yes I can. If anyone thinks cloth masks stop viruses you are a dumb person.
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you are so far out of touch you may as well be on the moon
 
maxparrish said:
Like so many COVID hotspots, grassroots and informal groups of citizens have arisen asserting their right to free. Much to the shock and resentment of many autocratic governors that have declared themselves to be unaccountable, unlimited, and untouchable for as long as they please (using the magic words "of this is a health emergency") the citizen patriots and public interest groups have had enough from their new overlords - they are under the impression that America is supposed to be a free Republic, one that rejected tyranny of the autocratic and royal sovereigns in 1776.

This isn't an arcane issue, its a fundamental challenge to the entire basis of the US Constitution that rejects the legitimacy of any government that operates under the assumption that the "the state" and its officials are the supreme source of divine and legitimate power. At its root, it is a battle between those who believe in the unalienable rights of man and of a government of and by the sovereign people, and those who thrill at bending the knee to a tyrant of absolute rule over a powerless legislature, civil society, community, and family.

Not four months ago the degree of power seized by state governors would have been unthinkable, even in a major national war. Nothing less than a civil war in the union could have begun to suggest that people could be incarcerated in their homes without trial, denied a source of living, arrested for looking at a sunset or for strolling through a park. And never has it been made illegal to go to school, or to go to church, or to give or obtain a haircut.

So far society has yet to confront the full implications of this oppression, both in human rights and in the destruction of civil society. But the recent suit in Oregon by many Churches and others against an arrogant governor is emblematic of this struggle. Like the governors of Minnesota, Michigan, and Wisconsin (among others) upon expiration of that state's 28 day time limit of the health emergency powers, she (like her peers) simple ignore the elected representatives and decree new powers of unlimited duration (even Hitler had to get permission to have such power by a vote from the Reichstag). And also like her peers, she has mined the law and found highly dubious unspecific "authorization" for her seizure of power so as to negate democracy...not unlike the methods of Maduro in Venezuela.

Mind you, this is not the most fundamental debate (which must be addressed) over Constitutional rights of the individual. But it is over democracy...the right of the people's representatives and signed laws to check the power of the single autocrat that issues whatever "executive orders" and criminal penalties she likes.

So as "liberalism" has now become the ideology of repression and state worship, we must fight... for now in courts and under the law. But if people want their freedoms back, it may well take more violent action - if so, it will be on the head of those who pushed the people too far.
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could you commit violent actions against yourself 1st please not buying your rite to make people sick and dead
 
maxparrish said:
What I really want is a free society. And what I don't want is the endless aggregation of oppression and loss of freedom imposed by statists. This latest excuse of stripping people of their rights to exercise their religion or to freely assemble has been a shock to those who are not in a state of oblivious soma. And before this becomes "normal" it is important that people react...strongly.

Now, since I wrote my opinions it is clearer that the worst of the lot are starting to back down. It is clearer that a measure of personal liberty will return - although how much remains to be seen. None the less push people fast enough and far enough, and what will happen won't be pretty.

And if it doesn't happen now (and I think it won't) it will if our overseers try this again in a second wave.
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you don't want a free society, you want the whole country to comprise a militia of self-serving individuals shooting their way to personal gratification. Martial law on meth.
 
maxparrish said:
That's what those on the side of King George believed as well, i.e. the loyalists to royal oppression. And while we are not at that stage...yet...we are certainly at the stage of civil disobedience, protest, and passive resistance against the wheels of the state. And when in the course of human events it becomes intolerable, people have a right to liberty...if necessary through violent revolution.

If you don't want to get to that stage, best you listen to the people's elected representatives and join them in opposing unilateral power of "the leader".
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we are the people to you self righteous murderous asshole
 
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