Brix: Inflated CDC Numbers Can't Be Trusted.

Paradoxical said:

They must have a great gig going on there. No one is really watching or controlling them. All they have to do is get their pals together in a meting and say something like, "Hey guys and gals. We haven't been to Cancun in forever! There could be some problems there we don't know about so how about if 25 of us go there for a few weeks and just scout around and make sure the men and women aren't exposing themselves to too much sun that could cause cancer among thongs of women...I mean throngs of people? Oh, and we really can't fly coach because we are important and we can't catch any viruses so we all need to book first class seats. The Ritz Carlton has a special on rooms at just $750.00 a night and that should make any of those outsiders reviewing us happy that we are watching our expenses. The never of them questioning a meal of $450.00 and a bottle of wine at $600.00. That was for two of us!"

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Exactamente, mi amigo!

Thoreau72 said:

No, it's the title of a documentary recently released and then censored by our social overlords so that we might be protected from too damn much knowledge. I have not watched it yet, but imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The more I learn the more it seems this entire event was planned.

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"The event", of course, is not the virus, but the response to the virus.

Listening to Anthony Fauci is nice, but he addresses only a part of the issue.

It's not much different than running a business based only on the ideas of the janitorial staff.

No, no, no, no... We can't continue to build those cars. When we lube up the hubs on the wheels and put the greasy oil crap in the engines, it's getting all over everything. I saw a guy with oil on his shirt!

And that paint booth! My God! There's paint everywhere! We can't keep this place clean if we keep all these workers tracking in dirt from the parking lot!

What's wrong with you people? You're doing everything wrong!

WE HAVE TO SHUT THIS PLACE DOWN!

JasperL said:

That's a lie, that's been pointed out many times. CDC doesn't count the deaths except to literally count them. The cause of death is determined by attending physicians, not CDC, and the guidelines for CV19 aren't different than for the flu or any other cause of death.

And the numbers we all see every day do not come from the CDC but from thousands of county and state health departments. It's just a typical right wing conspiracy theory to blame it all on the DEEEEEP STATE!!! when the numbers don't show Dear Leader in a good light.

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Covid19 truthers are my favorite. They are just so splendid when it comes to not understanding the most basic of facts.

Pound4abrown said:

Covid19 truthers are my favorite. They are just so splendid when it comes to not understanding the most basic of facts.

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Aren't the Covid19 truthers the left-wingers who believe this scam is a real threat?

code1211 said:

"The event", of course, is not the virus, but the response to the virus.

Listening to Anthony Fauci is nice, but he addresses only a part of the issue.

It's not much different than running a business based only on the ideas of the janitorial staff.

No, no, no, no... We can't continue to build those cars. When we lube up the hubs on the wheels and put the greasy oil crap in the engines, it's getting all over everything. I saw a guy with oil on his shirt!

And that paint booth! My God! There's paint everywhere! We can't keep this place clean if we keep all these workers tracking in dirt from the parking lot!

What's wrong with you people? You're doing everything wrong!

WE HAVE TO SHUT THIS PLACE DOWN!

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Here is something interesting if the link works: A Well-Planned Epidemic - Global ResearchGlobal Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

It seems there is documentary evidence that this event was planned. Does the Gates Foundation have patent on the virus?

JasperL said:

Sure, but when CV19 is raging and someone who presents with symptoms consistent with it, and in places like NYC they couldn't do enough testing because of backlogs and before that because we failed to secure enough tests at all, then it's more accurate to count them if the doctor in his or her professional judgment says, yes, this is entirely consistent with CV19, and it's what killed them. Many more died before they could be tested, but of disease consistent with CV19. Testing them is a waste of resources, so we trust doctors to use their judgment then and in daily life before and after CV19

If you don't want them classified as CV19 deaths, and tests didn't reveal another underlying cause, what should they use as cause of death? Heart attack, for example, isn't a cause of death but manner of death - there's a reason why someone has a heart attack, an underlying cause.



You'll have to explain. What would a 'correct' collection of that data look like?



It's not really about the kids but about their parents, and other adults. If the kids get sick, they bring it home, infect their parents, who then often go to work or to the store or to a ballgame or restaurant and infect other adults, many of them vulnerable, such as parents with high blood pressure or diabetes, etc.



There are good reasons to close schools. I pointed out the family above, but there's also the millions of workers in schools, many of them vulnerable. Teachers, cooks, janitors, other staff, nurses, etc. One of my good friends runs a day care at a local church. Those kids are probably safe, but she's got 12 staff, including her, and about half are approaching or over 60, and they interact with the rest of the church leadership, are in church property. Look at the faculty at a university, or at a local HS. They're not all 20 something bullet proof kids.

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Regarding the folks at risk, protect them.

Of the about 85,000 Covid-19 attributed fatalities, AGAIN, only about 9% are younger than 60. The fatalities in the group above 60 usually hit those with underlying conditions.

We like to segment groups and view the hard lines as meaningful. Here in Indiana, we have a re-opening under way. Statistics seem to indicate that a healthy 61 year old has a lower risk than an 85 year old using a nebulizer.

Restaurants in Indianapolis are still closed. Restaurants in a first tier suburb, Carmel, are open. The county line runs down 96th street. Restaurants on the North side of 96th can be open while those on the south side of 96th are mandated to be closed.

I assume that the more densely populated center of downtown is the "epicenter" of the disease in Indianapolis, but the prohibitions continue undiluted to the border of the county.

However, the double yellow line that runs the length of 96th Street seems to be the barrier that prevents the virus from traveling north to Carmel. Interesting...

Regarding the collection of data, attributing deaths to anything seems to require that the presence of the cause is shown and documented. No test means no evidence.

An accurate presentation of data might show an overall number of SUSPECTED cases and within that count the actual number of cases PROVEN confirmed tests.

Regarding kids bringing the illness home, most kids in public schools from my very unscientific observation across my lifetime have parents that are younger than 60.

The incidence of the Covid fatalities occur in that entire group at a rate below 10%. The demographic population share of that group is about 85%.

85% of 330 million is about 280.5 million. The share of fatalities in that age segment is about 7,650 including the tested and untested. 7,650 as a percent of 280.5 million is 0.0027%. About 1 in about 37,000.

In the meantime, life savings are being exhausted, cars are being repossessed, educations are being lost, businesses are being bankrupted and lives are being ruined.

At some point, we'll have to stop beating our heads with hammers because it will feel better to stop.

JasperL said:

You ignored my point... The rates by demographic can remain more or less constant, but if the number doubles, you still have a problem...

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The point you stated included an assumption that the actual number of deaths due to Coronavirus was the same as the normal number of deaths comprising the normal rate resulting in a doubling of total deaths.

The number of Coronavirus attributed deaths is not that high. I noted that Coronavirus deaths were 1,482 compared to the 2017 death TOTAL which was 65,602. That is the most current figure I could find.

IF the number doubles, that will be an entirely different discussion. It has not doubled. The number of deaths attributed to Coronavirus, confirmed by test or not, is about 2.2% of the normal total from a few years back.

It will be interesting to see what the actual increase in deaths was for this period of time when the numbers have been boiled down. This will apparently not be available for a few years.

Lord Tammerlain said:

If the person was sick with cancer, and contracted Covid 19, and died within a couple of weeks while doctors said they were likely to live for 6 months would you say it was caused by cancer or Covid 19

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Deuce said:

It's clearly COVID-19 because that's what actually killed him.

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code1211 said:

Regarding the folks at risk, protect them.

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That's easy to say, and immensely difficult in practice. You are basically unconcerned for the young, for example, and parents with kids in school, because of the low death rate. OK, fine. Well who in the hell do you think works at assisted living centers, hospitals, nursing homes, doctors offices that see the elderly and vulnerable? Those parents not at risk go see their parents, who are. When the non-at risk get sick, and maybe half without symptoms or mild ones, how do you prevent them from going to work at my mother in law's assisted living center? If it's widespread in our community, even among the young, someone sick and contagious WILL go to work, will go visit mom, and it will happen again and again and again and again. So, sure, protect the people at risk. How, exactly, can you do that if it's widespread in the community at large?

Regular testing, maybe weekly, is one option I guess, but it's frustrating that people point to Sweden, who opted not to test, and opted against social distancing, then we're surprised they did NOT do a good job of protecting the elderly. Well, seems to me that's a predictable consequence of letting CV19 spread and not testing to see who has been infected, and yet we hold them up as the gold star. I don't get it.

Of the about 85,000 Covid-19 attributed fatalities, AGAIN, only about 9% are younger than 60. The fatalities in the group above 60 usually hit those with underlying conditions.

We like to segment groups and view the hard lines as meaningful. Here in Indiana, we have a re-opening under way. Statistics seem to indicate that a healthy 61 year old has a lower risk than an 85 year old using a nebulizer.

Restaurants in Indianapolis are still closed. Restaurants in a first tier suburb, Carmel, are open. The county line runs down 96th street. Restaurants on the North side of 96th can be open while those on the south side of 96th are mandated to be closed.

I assume that the more densely populated center of downtown is the "epicenter" of the disease in Indianapolis, but the prohibitions continue undiluted to the border of the county.

However, the double yellow line that runs the length of 96th Street seems to be the barrier that prevents the virus from traveling north to Carmel. Interesting...

Regarding the collection of data, attributing deaths to anything seems to require that the presence of the cause is shown and documented. No test means no evidence.

An accurate presentation of data might show an overall number of SUSPECTED cases and within that count the actual number of cases PROVEN confirmed tests.

Regarding kids bringing the illness home, most kids in public schools from my very unscientific observation across my lifetime have parents that are younger than 60.

The incidence of the Covid fatalities occur in that entire group at a rate below 10%. The demographic population share of that group is about 85%.

85% of 330 million is about 280.5 million. The share of fatalities in that age segment is about 7,650 including the tested and untested. 7,650 as a percent of 280.5 million is 0.0027%. About 1 in about 37,000.

In the meantime, life savings are being exhausted, cars are being repossessed, educations are being lost, businesses are being bankrupted and lives are being ruined.

At some point, we'll have to stop beating our heads with hammers because it will feel better to stop.

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I've said about 50 times on DP I'm in favor of reopening in Tennessee. It's controlled here, we're doing a ton of testing, and in Knoxville, we have zero people currently hospitalized with CV19. I'm sure lots of other places can also safely reopen. I hope they do if safe and that businesses have a safe, prosperous restart.

Thoreau72 said:

Here is something interesting if the link works: A Well-Planned Epidemic - Global ResearchGlobal Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

It seems there is documentary evidence that this event was planned. Does the Gates Foundation have patent on the virus?

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This seems a little "out there" to me.

Not willing to dismiss anything that rises from government corruption or theft, but it seems odd that Coronavirus would be mentioned anywhere before it existed.

I don't know enough about anything on this to either buy in or dismiss.

Tanngrisnir said:

The only problem being, of course, that there's zero credible evidence that such numbers have actually been inflated.

I'm quite glad, however, that you and I could finally agree that twump is a pathologically dishonest whore with the blood of tens of thousands on his hands and that he should die in prison.

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Looks like you need to get your emotions under control and not let this hyperbolic stupidity get the better of you.

JasperL said:

That's easy to say, and immensely difficult in practice. You are basically unconcerned for the young, for example, and parents with kids in school, because of the low death rate. OK, fine. Well who in the hell do you think works at assisted living centers, hospitals, nursing homes, doctors offices that see the elderly and vulnerable? Those parents not at risk go see their parents, who are. When the non-at risk get sick, and maybe half without symptoms or mild ones, how do you prevent them from going to work at my mother in law's assisted living center? If it's widespread in our community, even among the young, someone sick and contagious WILL go to work, will go visit mom, and it will happen again and again and again and again. So, sure, protect the people at risk. How, exactly, can you do that if it's widespread in the community at large?

Regular testing, maybe weekly, is one option I guess, but it's frustrating that people point to Sweden, who opted not to test, and opted against social distancing, then we're surprised they did NOT do a good job of protecting the elderly. Well, seems to me that's a predictable consequence of letting CV19 spread and not testing to see who has been infected, and yet we hold them up as the gold star. I don't get it.



I've said about 50 times on DP I'm in favor of reopening in Tennessee. It's controlled here, we're doing a ton of testing, and in Knoxville, we have zero people currently hospitalized with CV19. I'm sure lots of other places can also safely reopen. I hope they do if safe and that businesses have a safe, prosperous restart.

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Terrific!

We have a whole pile o' data at this point.

It should serve to help in the re-opening.

Staying closed is not an option. Opening up with the required mitigating measures is needed.

code1211 said:

This seems a little "out there" to me.

Not willing to dismiss anything that rises from government corruption or theft, but it seems odd that Coronavirus would be mentioned anywhere before it existed.

I don't know enough about anything on this to either buy in or dismiss.

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Thanks for the straight answer. IF what the author claims is true and accurate, it explains much.

If that legislation exists as he says, it explains much. If the patent is true and accurate, it explains much. If those exercises took place in 2019, it explains much.

Thoreau72 said:

Here is something interesting if the link works: A Well-Planned Epidemic - Global ResearchGlobal Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

It seems there is documentary evidence that this event was planned. Does the Gates Foundation have patent on the virus?

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That source is garbage. It says the CARE act was introduced in 2019, and a bill with the same number was, and it passed the House by overwhelming majorities in July. Then that bill died, and the House resurrected that bill NUMBER, very likely for practical reasons, deleted the existing text and inserting what's now known as the CARE Act. It's common practice.

Here's an article discussing the original text, which was to repeal the 40% excise tax on 'cadillac' health plans. Middle Class Health Benefits Tax Repeal Act is a Democrat-led effort to end Obamacare’s unpopular “Cadillac tax”

So the author is a liar or stupid. At a bare minimum, it relies on the nonsense notion that roughly the entire House, GOP and Democratic, is in on this conspiracy and we heard nothing about it at the time or from anyone like, say, staffers, calling the whistle on this massive effort to deal with a pandemic that doesn't exist at that time.....

This is why CTs are in the basement. That's where this source belongs.

Thoreau72 said:

Thanks for the straight answer. IF what the author claims is true and accurate, it explains much.

If that legislation exists as he says, it explains much. If the patent is true and accurate, it explains much. If those exercises took place in 2019, it explains much.

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I spose so...

code1211 said:

I spose so...

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Did you know that on the labels for Lysol, one of the virus it kills is listed as corona virus? It's been that way for decades, which is to say that corona virus has been around for a long time.

Thoreau72 said:

Did you know that on the labels for Lysol, one of the virus it kills is listed as corona virus? It's been that way for decades, which is to say that corona virus has been around for a long time.

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That is comforting. We carry Wipes around in our cars when we rebelliously leave the house to buy groceries. Once we took a walk on a nice day down at the canal.

True to form, I didn't read the labels. Just assumed that if it was a Wipe, it must kill the germs I was concerned about.

Anyway, still alive and posting so I guess it works!

I even had that cheeseburger and Chocolate shake at Bru Burger over the last weekend. First tier suburbs are open even though Indy is still shut down.

code1211 said:

That is comforting. We carry Wipes around in our cars when we rebelliously leave the house to buy groceries. Once we took a walk on a nice day down at the canal.

True to form, I didn't read the labels. Just assumed that if it was a Wipe, it must kill the germs I was concerned about.

Anyway, still alive and posting so I guess it works!

I even had that cheeseburger and Chocolate shake at Bru Burger over the last weekend. First tier suburbs are open even though Indy is still shut down.

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When it all began, I carried wipes in my car, and used them when opening doors and using elevators, rare events in my life. When fueling at the gas pump I use gloves. I wore the mask when I went to drug store or grocery store, but I'm finished with that. Sunshine kills the virus, and the beaches are back open so I'm happy about that.

Thoreau72 said:

When it all began, I carried wipes in my car, and used them when opening doors and using elevators, rare events in my life. When fueling at the gas pump I use gloves. I wore the mask when I went to drug store or grocery store, but I'm finished with that. Sunshine kills the virus, and the beaches are back open so I'm happy about that.

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I continue to wear the mask and do the wipes and so forth.

I also leave the house whenever I care to.

Willy Nilly should be the Director of Recreation at a Summer Camp, not the Governor of my State.

Seems like they can say, "Go ahead and re-open, but please be careful". The methodology is insane.

Effective yesterday, 1,678 fatalities attributed to Coronavirus with numerous cases attributed but never tested to confirm the presence of the virus.

Of that, 146, less than 9% of the fatalities, occur in the age group that still works for a living or goes to school.

RU F'n Kidding me?!?!

146 people dead in the population that goes to work or school and most of the businesses and the all of the schools are shut down!?!?!

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! THIS IS INSANITY!

146, divided by Indiana's population is .00002179. That 2/1000's of one percent.

C'mon, people!

code1211 said:

I continue to wear the mask and do the wipes and so forth.

I also leave the house whenever I care to.

Willy Nilly should be the Director of Recreation at a Summer Camp, not the Governor of my State.

Seems like they can say, "Go ahead and re-open, but please be careful". The methodology is insane.

Effective yesterday, 1,678 fatalities attributed to Coronavirus with numerous cases attributed but never tested to confirm the presence of the virus.

Of that, 146, less than 9% of the fatalities, occur in the age group that still works for a living or goes to school.

RUF Kidding me?!?!

146 people dead in the population that goes to work or school and the businesses and the schools are shut down!?!?!

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! THIS IS INSANITY!

146, divided by Indiana's population is .00002179. That 2/1000's of one percent.

C'mon, people!

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With so many doctors and nurses speaking out regarding the padding of the numbers, and many of them being censored by the authorities, I've reached the point that the numbers are mostly meaningless. I do not trust the numbers.

The only number that interests me is the infection rate, and that is as unknown today as it was 3 months ago. My bet is that it is much higher than they would like to talk about.

Corona virus have been around for thousands of years. People do get infected with them all the time

The virus that causes Covid 19 is a very different type of corona virus than what we have been infected with before

Thoreau72 said:

With so many doctors and nurses speaking out regarding the padding of the numbers, and many of them being censored by the authorities, I've reached the point that the numbers are mostly meaningless. I do not trust the numbers.

The only number that interests me is the infection rate, and that is as unknown today as it was 3 months ago. My bet is that it is much higher than they would like to talk about.

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I use the number of fatalities because it seems less subject to interpretation for purpose. The people who die are dead.

If they are counted using the same methodology, that statistic is something that is comparable across time.

Numbers of tested, confirmed, infected, recovered seem foggy at best and rigged at worst.

I assume that these more foggy numbers serve some purpose for people who like them, but it reminds of Lincoln's review of a book while he was President.

For the people that like that sort of number, that is the sort of number those people will like. You probably have a greater understanding of the whole picture than I do.

Beyond that, though, if this virus did not kill or contribute to the death of anyone, it wouldn't be getting this much attention.

code1211 said:

I use the number of fatalities because it seems less subject to interpretation for purpose. The people who die are dead.

If they are counted using the same methodology, that statistic is something that is comparable across time.

Numbers of tested, confirmed, infected, recovered seem foggy at best and rigged at worst.

I assume that these more foggy numbers serve some purpose for people who like them, but it reminds of Lincoln's review of a book while he was President.

For the people that like that sort of number, that is the sort of number those people will like. You probably have a greater understanding of the whole picture than I do.

Beyond that, though, if this virus did not kill or contribute to the death of anyone, it wouldn't be getting this much attention.

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As I mentioned in a post on another thread, this thing reminds me of the way the government used body counts in the Vietnam conflict.

We were constantly told how many dead NV and VC troops had been killed, and those numbers became an index regarding the success of the Pentagon efforts.

Many were suspicious of that logic, and then eventually the Pentagon Papers were released and they confirmed those suspicions. Governments put up numbers to propagandize, to make themselves and their policies look good.

I accept that people HAVE died from Covid, but there is a building consensus that the numbers are being rigged. Those dissenters are censored in this digital age, and that means something.

Thoreau72 said:

As I mentioned in a post on another thread, this thing reminds me of the way the government used body counts in the Vietnam conflict.

We were constantly told how many dead NV and VC troops had been killed, and those numbers became an index regarding the success of the Pentagon efforts.

Many were suspicious of that logic, and then eventually the Pentagon Papers were released and they confirmed those suspicions. Governments put up numbers to propagandize, to make themselves and their policies look good.

I accept that people HAVE died from Covid, but there is a building consensus that the numbers are being rigged. Those dissenters are censored in this digital age, and that means something.

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Ah but rigged in what direction? Increasing numbers or suppressing numbers?

Unitedwestand13 said:

Ah but rigged in what direction? Increasing numbers or suppressing numbers?

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That is certainly a fair and relevant question.

The bureaucratic perspective is that numbers increase future budgets. Higher numbers = justification for the existence of the bureau.

Having lower numbers would have the opposite effect. They could possibly call into question the necessity of the bureau at all.

The consensus of the dissenters I've seen is that the numbers are being rigged towards the high side.