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How long can this continue?

What you don’t understand is that leaving all non-essential businesses open along with schools, social events and churches would spread the virus much faster. Then the virus would shut the government down

It doesn’t have to.

The Black Death killed half of Europe’s population and didn’t lead to a collapse of society

No I am not saying the goal should be like the Black Death. Just the point being this disease is far... faaaaaar less deadly then the Black Death was. I think there’s a case to be made that the reaction to covid19 is actually worse then the virus. Because our reaction is already leading to mass negative consequences and no one seems willing to discuss the actual logical basis for containing a disease at all costs versus balancing it with other issues
 
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China has not been manufacturing at any where near their normal run rate for some time now. They are just recently getting back up to speed. That donut hole in the supply chain is hitting us.

China processes a large percentage of our human food, not just pet food. If they carefully selected a slow-kill poison, virus, bacteria or fungus they probably could kill over half of Americans - if not more - before we even knew what has already happened.

Trusting China on anything is insane. For a few days many major aspects of our military was essentially out of commission when it learned China has put micro spy chips (best we could figure what they were) in computers and even keyboard purchased from China.

This likely is among reasons why President Trump just banned a Chinese connected company from being able to purchase any of our most advanced computer chips. We do NOT want to let China know how they make nor allow China to clone or other manufacture then and then sell them back to us. There is a possibly that China has the ability to hack a large percentage of every PC everyone - personal, private sector and even government in the USA.
 
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Do you understand that once the crisis is over, that the $600 will cease.

The crisis won't be over. It will be chronic as long as there is money to be had. You do understand that if people are not suffering, they are not going to be taking prevention serious dontcha?
 
It doesn’t have to.

The Black Death killed half of Europe’s population and didn’t lead to a collapse of society

The society recovered. As we will recover but with less death and destruction if we follow protocol
 
China processes a large percentage of our human food, not just pet food. If they carefully selected a slow-kill poison, virus, bacteria or fungus they probably could kill over half of Americans - if not more - before we even knew what has already happened.

Trusting China on anything is insane. For a few days many major aspects of our military was essentially out of commission when it learned China has put micro spy chips (best we could figure what they were) in computers and even keyboard purchased from China.


Capital will go where it is serviced best. That will not change and China will continue to be a vital part of our economy.
 
The crisis won't be over. It will be chronic as long as there is money to be had. You do understand that if people are not suffering, they are not going to be taking prevention serious dontcha?

That is why the governors shut down their states. Because stupid people like Rand Paul think because they are not suffering, no one else will. But people are suffering and people are dying. It is either going to get worse or better. What are you doing to prevent the spread?
 
That is why the governors shut down their states. Because stupid people like Rand Paul think because they are not suffering, no one else will. But people are suffering and people are dying. It is either going to get worse or better. What are you doing to prevent the spread?

I am coughing a lot whenever I go out in public. That makes sure people don't get 10 feet from me, let alone 6 :roll:

Flattening the curve will have no appreciable effect on preventing deaths. It just stretches them out over a longer time frame.
 
I am coughing a lot whenever I go out in public. That makes sure people don't get 10 feet from me, let alone 6 :roll:

Flattening the curve will have no appreciable effect on preventing deaths. It just stretches them out over a longer time frame.


Deaths will be prevented by not overburdening the healthcare system with too many cases at the same time.
 
You can't eat unemployment benefits. Unemployment benefits will not get you perscription and OTC drugs. Money is only worth what it can buy - and how much it costs.

I was talking about the Netherlands, health care is affordable. You pay just a few dozens of dollars a month, I pay about 60 euro, no drugs costs (prescription), no out of pockets costs whatsoever.

All I am saying is that unemployment benefits should not be there for people to live on comfortably for life.
 
Deaths will be prevented by not overburdening the healthcare system with too many cases at the same time.

And deaths will be caused by financial ruins of a protracted economic disruption. It will be a wash.
 
I've commented before that other than mega billion dollar companies, companies deeply tied into government (like defense contractors) or a tunnel vision (currently ventilators and masks), government never considers or communicates with the private sector at all. This not only leads to idiotic changes or rules, but serious production problems and even some sector saying "to hell with this" and just getting out of it.

I'll try not to ramble, but do wish to make the point. Someone we know told us yesterday a gallon of milk he bought the day before turned to a white gel overnight. It was not spoiled or near expiration date. I know what that means. Some dairy farmer ran out of some chemical he uses so used another than generally works for liquids, but did not know it reacts with milk. That then could do so to all the other milk it was added to down the food processing path. While people think of food products in terms of mega companies and grocery stores, actually food is a network originating for hundreds of thousands of small sources - domestic and international. Most people don't know there are unnamed chemicals in nearly all consumable products. For example, bottled purified water has chemicals added to it, with the USDA approving doing so - and approving not stating so on the label because it toxic. Other than salt and citrus, most preservatives are poisons. However, the opinion is tiny trace amounts don't hurt you and the dangers of spoiled and contaminated foods and liquids is just too great in the alternative.

Yesterday, I spent most the day buying up the last of a key ingredient for our unique signature product - buying the last of small amounts all over the country - where before I'd just place 1 order once a month. However, now a month's supply is a 5 day supply. Tomorrow I will pursue buying the last in New Zealand and Australia (the EU long out of it). Most mega companies will not bother with tiny purchases and will just be out of inventory. Most small scale companies don't have the funds to carry much inventory. So I am finding it, but that will end.

The rest of yesterday and today I am seeking out and buying up the last of a particularly popular size and style bottle - and any even close to being like it. I'm finding 500 here, a thousand there, 100, and the "big score" of 10,000. If lucky I'll be able to find maybe 20,000. At current levels we need over 100,000 minimally for the next 30 days, and that might not be enough. We're down to about 10,000 or so. Thousands of other companies use that bottle style and size. NONE can get it. The bottle suppliers all estimate replacement inventory the end of April. But I know what that means. It means they hope to get delivery from China by then.

It is just assumed "don't worry, they'll be food." "Don't worry, there will still be over-the-counter drugs." "Don't worry, there will be everything to electric companies to replace blow transformers." "Don't worry, there will be plenty of ........" How does the government know that? The government doesn't know that at all. The government does not communicate with the private sector. There is no assurance empty food shelves will be filled. There is no assurance food processors will have what they need so the food and beverages are safe. Switching to other chemicals or make shift measures carries many risks as well. Masks and ventilators aren't the only thing hospitals can run out of. Here, their supplier of distilled water (true distilled water) just delivered the last 30 five gallon jugs of true zero ppm water - to us. They don't know when they'll have more. Want distilled water? Maybe WalMart has some left. Good enough for a hospital? It's not good enough for us. We tested it a couple years ago. ALMOST zero ppms. ALMOST means NOT distilled water. We are stocking up everything we can realizing everything is going to rapidly cease to be available anywhere in the country - or the free world.

If we lose packaging ability or inventory ability, many food processors and other operations of others lose the ability to do their thing too. Some of our producing commercial customers are going into panic mode. How can they keep operating? At first, it was "YAHOO! We're making money now!' with huge sales increases. But this is becoming "how do we stay in business without what we must have?!"

TWEET your boy and tell him to send the country back to work.

Holy crap. It's like no Republicans want to actually tell our President what the right thing to do is.
 
And deaths will be caused by financial ruins of a protracted economic disruption. It will be a wash.

I thought you were talking about deaths due to complications arising from COVID-19.

I am not convinced that there would be as many deaths from suicide, abuse, and dependency due to economic hardship than there would be from more cases than the healthcare system could handle.

Also, actions have been taken to alleviate the economic hardship.
 
I am coughing a lot whenever I go out in public. That makes sure people don't get 10 feet from me, let alone 6 :roll:

Flattening the curve will have no appreciable effect on preventing deaths. It just stretches them out over a longer time frame.
Flattening the curve means less people are dying, less people are getting sick and less people are spreading the virus
 
I've commented before that other than mega billion dollar companies, companies deeply tied into government (like defense contractors) or a tunnel vision (currently ventilators and masks), government never considers or communicates with the private sector at all. This not only leads to idiotic changes or rules, but serious production problems and even some sector saying "to hell with this" and just getting out of it.

I'll try not to ramble, but do wish to make the point. Someone we know told us yesterday a gallon of milk he bought the day before turned to a white gel overnight. It was not spoiled or near expiration date. I know what that means. Some dairy farmer ran out of some chemical he uses so used another than generally works for liquids, but did not know it reacts with milk. That then could do so to all the other milk it was added to down the food processing path. While people think of food products in terms of mega companies and grocery stores, actually food is a network originating for hundreds of thousands of small sources - domestic and international. Most people don't know there are unnamed chemicals in nearly all consumable products. For example, bottled purified water has chemicals added to it, with the USDA approving doing so - and approving not stating so on the label because it toxic. Other than salt and citrus, most preservatives are poisons. However, the opinion is tiny trace amounts don't hurt you and the dangers of spoiled and contaminated foods and liquids is just too great in the alternative.

Yesterday, I spent most the day buying up the last of a key ingredient for our unique signature product - buying the last of small amounts all over the country - where before I'd just place 1 order once a month. However, now a month's supply is a 5 day supply. Tomorrow I will pursue buying the last in New Zealand and Australia (the EU long out of it). Most mega companies will not bother with tiny purchases and will just be out of inventory. Most small scale companies don't have the funds to carry much inventory. So I am finding it, but that will end.

The rest of yesterday and today I am seeking out and buying up the last of a particularly popular size and style bottle - and any even close to being like it. I'm finding 500 here, a thousand there, 100, and the "big score" of 10,000. If lucky I'll be able to find maybe 20,000. At current levels we need over 100,000 minimally for the next 30 days, and that might not be enough. We're down to about 10,000 or so. Thousands of other companies use that bottle style and size. NONE can get it. The bottle suppliers all estimate replacement inventory the end of April. But I know what that means. It means they hope to get delivery from China by then.

It is just assumed "don't worry, they'll be food." "Don't worry, there will still be over-the-counter drugs." "Don't worry, there will be everything to electric companies to replace blow transformers." "Don't worry, there will be plenty of ........" How does the government know that? The government doesn't know that at all. The government does not communicate with the private sector. There is no assurance empty food shelves will be filled. There is no assurance food processors will have what they need so the food and beverages are safe. Switching to other chemicals or make shift measures carries many risks as well. Masks and ventilators aren't the only thing hospitals can run out of. Here, their supplier of distilled water (true distilled water) just delivered the last 30 five gallon jugs of true zero ppm water - to us. They don't know when they'll have more. Want distilled water? Maybe WalMart has some left. Good enough for a hospital? It's not good enough for us. We tested it a couple years ago. ALMOST zero ppms. ALMOST means NOT distilled water. We are stocking up everything we can realizing everything is going to rapidly cease to be available anywhere in the country - or the free world.

If we lose packaging ability or inventory ability, many food processors and other operations of others lose the ability to do their thing too. Some of our producing commercial customers are going into panic mode. How can they keep operating? At first, it was "YAHOO! We're making money now!' with huge sales increases. But this is becoming "how do we stay in business without what we must have?!"

At some point production of everything will grind to such a slow pace that finding basics is going to get difficult, (toilet paper), unless we get America back to work.
 
I thought you were talking about deaths due to complications arising from COVID-19.

I am not convinced that there would be as many deaths from suicide, abuse, and dependency due to economic hardship than there would be from more cases than the healthcare system could handle.

Also, actions have been taken to alleviate the economic hardship.

The law of unintended consequences. You can't shut an economy down and put the majority of people essentially under house arrest and then declare only good things with no harms come from this. Try to get non-life-saving critical medical care now? Like a mammogram to detect breast cancer to remove it while doing so is a 100% cure. (Men get breast cancer too). Or any other preventative exam or procedure now. They are leaving beds and procedures time open because it MIGHT be needed in the future for someone with covid-19.
 
At some point production of everything will grind to such a slow pace that finding basics is going to get difficult, (toilet paper), unless we get America back to work.

If so, toilet paper is the least of our worries. If you have a couple dozen hand towels and washer/dryer - or even a big pot and a stove top - you got toilet paper covered. This how diapers were done until paper diapers came along.
 
And deaths will be caused by financial ruins of a protracted economic disruption. It will be a wash.

Death from financial ruin is a choice. Death from a pandemic is not
 
Flattening the curve means less people are dying, less people are getting sick and less people are spreading the virus

Good thing everything else in life became irrelevant, unnecessary and all other causes of death no longer exists. Hopefully some how you can survive covid-19 and continue as an immortal being.
 
Maybe we should just let businesses and the free market determine essential.
And that's why the U.S. is going to suffer the worst of this. Good gods man.
 
Good thing everything else in life became irrelevant, unnecessary and all other causes of death no longer exists. Hopefully some how you can survive covid-19 and continue as an immortal being.

Let's listen to the experts....ok?
 
EMN of Seattle, no one really cares about affirmative or negative rights.

They care about being warm, safe, sheltered, clothed, fed, and safe from the virus.

Americans can take a big, big hit economically and still protect everyone.

We cannot avoid recession, but with some citizen pro-safety activity we may avoid Coronavirus to be back to work by mid-summer.

Then how effective a vax works will be the next step.
 
What idiot came up with the slogan "liberty or death?" What a lunatic. Actually, the government should outlaw anyone ever leaving their homes unless it life essential travel - and then only travel in a vehicle driven by a highly trained professional driver in a vehicle limited to 10 miles hour - and only then if you can't walk. After all, contagious diseases will not have all been eliminated and when you leave your home death potentials are present every second.

It's time for government to protect everyone from themselves and each other, not just covid-19. Every possibly way an person my be killed MUST be outlaws and prevented at all costs. Nothing, absolutely nothing, in life matters than living as long as possibly can with every conceivable risk forcibly prevented by the government. Definitely the government must strictly regulate what you many and may not consume and any and all sports certainly must be outlawed. All schools should be bulldozed down and all schooling by the Internet. Until age 18, a person should never be even allowed to go outside.

That is the declared core premise of many to most on the forum if you listen to the premise of their covid-19 terror messages.
 
The law of unintended consequences. You can't shut an economy down and put the majority of people essentially under house arrest and then declare only good things with no harms come from this. Try to get non-life-saving critical medical care now? Like a mammogram to detect breast cancer to remove it while doing so is a 100% cure. (Men get breast cancer too). Or any other preventative exam or procedure now. They are leaving beds and procedures time open because it MIGHT be needed in the future for someone with covid-19.
You don’t need a bed for a mammogram or any other test for that matter. People are still going to he doctors and dentist. Hospitals are overwhelmed because of the pandemic and elective surgeries have been postponed.
 
What idiot came up with the slogan "liberty or death?" What a lunatic. Actually, the government should outlaw anyone ever leaving their homes unless it life essential travel - and then only travel in a vehicle driven by a highly trained professional driver in a vehicle limited to 10 miles hour - and only then if you can't walk. After all, contagious diseases will not have all been eliminated and when you leave your home death potentials are present every second.

It's time for government to protect everyone from themselves and each other, not just covid-19. Every possibly way an person my be killed MUST be outlaws and prevented at all costs. Nothing, absolutely nothing, in life matters than living as long as possibly can with every conceivable risk forcibly prevented by the government. Definitely the government must strictly regulate what you many and may not consume and any and all sports certainly must be outlawed. All schools should be bulldozed down and all schooling by the Internet. Until age 18, a person should never be even allowed to go outside.

That is the declared core premise of many to most on the forum if you listen to the premise of their covid-19 terror messages.

Or we could just follow the recommendations of the experts
 
We now have over one thousand threads on this subject.

A lot of hate, a lot of lies and a lot of stupidity. . .

Over another corona virus, corona virus aren't new, but we are going to keep getting new, infectious genotypes and outbreaks of them as long as some populations of humans interact with wild-life the way they do in the "wet markets" of China.

For anyone interested in learning about the matter instead of mindlessly ranting foolishness, ...

“Coronaviruses are well known to undergo genetic recombination, which may lead to new genotypes and outbreaks. The presence of a large reservoir of SARS-CoV-like viruses in horseshoe bats, together with the culture of eating exotic mammals in southern China, is a time bomb.”
Clinical Microbiology Reviews, Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus as an Agent of Emerging and Reemerging Infection, 2007

Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus as an Agent of Emerging and Reemerging Infection

There WILL be more corona virus infections in the future. New strains, some worse, some more mild than covid19 or H1N1 etc.

We have to wonder... are we to shut our civilization down every time we encounter a new one ?

There WILL be more strains of corona (and other) viruses, will we react as we've always reacted ? Or will we now always do THIS ?????

Because if we do THIS every time, our civilization will cease to function and we'll learn what REAL trouble is.
 
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