It isn't just China using Covid-1p to kill their elderly. So is the USA

joko104 said:

If ANY of you think you can name a country where covid-19 had killed even close to as many people as the annual flu season kills every year, name it. Justify the panic statistically.

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OK, population of Ohio is roughly 12 million. A flu spread of 20% is 2.4 million. Their hospitals handle that pretty easily, because it's a recurring event, happens every year.

So far Ohio has diagnosed 704 cases, 182 of them (26%) has been hospitalized, and 75 of those admitted to the ICU (11%).

OK, assuming they've identified all the cases, that's 264,000 ICU admissions with a flu-like spread (2,400,000 X .11). There are only about 5,000 ICU beds in the entire state, and let's assume half of those are needed for NON CV19 cases - heart, lung, accidents, etc. so capacity for CV19 is 2,500, and that exceeds capacity by 106X.

To make the math most favorable to you, let's assume they've identified only 10% of actual cases, so the real cases so far are 7,040, and 75 ICU admissions is a rate of a little over 1%. That's 28,000 ICU admissions with a flu-like spread, which exceeds capacity by 11X.

But of course this is FAR more contagious than the flu, so there's no reason to expect a 20% spread - more like 50% or more without the measures we are seeing, which brings cases > capacity to 28X.

So in Ohio alone, for every ICU bed, that's just 27 people who need an ICU bed but can't get one because of CV19 cases, and who will likely die. In total, that's something like 67,000 ADDITIONAL dead for lack of capacity to treat them. In one state. That's a really, really bad year's worth of flu deaths in Ohio alone. Now do NY (pop 20 million), CA (40 million), TX (29 million).

And of course those are worst case and assume that all the cases come at once, which won't happen - hence - flatten the curve. So instead of those cases coming at once, they are spread out over months and we don't get 28X or 100X capacity demands, but something close to capacity. That is the reason for social distancing, etc.

You complain about the old people who aren't getting their medical needs met now, but completely ignore what happens WHEN CV19 overwhelms your local hospital and they have a young guy - 43 - with well controlled diabetes or something and CV19, and your 72 year old stroke victim or heart attack victim and 10 others who are old or with chronic illness - 12 or 13 in total, and there is ONE (1) BED. What in the hell do you think happens then? The old people you're worried about in other posts are told to suck it up and DIE because there is no other damn choice.

JasperL said:

OK, population of Ohio is roughly 12 million. A flu spread of 20% is 2.4 million. Their hospitals handle that pretty easily, because it's a recurring event, happens every year.

So far Ohio has diagnosed 704 cases, 182 of them (26%) has been hospitalized, and 75 of those admitted to the ICU (11%).

OK, assuming they've identified all the cases, that's 264,000 ICU admissions with a flu-like spread (2,400,000 X .11). There are only about 5,000 ICU beds in the entire state, and let's assume half of those are needed for NON CV19 cases - heart, lung, accidents, etc. so capacity for CV19 is 2,500, and that exceeds capacity by 106X.

To make the math most favorable to you, let's assume they've identified only 10% of actual cases, so the real cases so far are 7,040, and 75 ICU admissions is a rate of a little over 1%. That's 28,000 ICU admissions with a flu-like spread, which exceeds capacity by 11X.

But of course this is FAR more contagious than the flu, so there's no reason to expect a 20% spread - more like 50% or more without the measures we are seeing, which brings cases > capacity to 28X.

So in Ohio alone, for every ICU bed, that's just 27 people who need an ICU bed but can't get one because of CV19 cases, and who will likely die. In total, that's something like 67,000 ADDITIONAL dead for lack of capacity to treat them. In one state. That's a really, really bad year's worth of flu deaths in Ohio alone. Now do NY (pop 20 million), CA (40 million), TX (29 million).

And of course those are worst case and assume that all the cases come at once, which won't happen - hence - flatten the curve. So instead of those cases coming at once, they are spread out over months and we don't get 28X or 100X capacity demands, but something close to capacity. That is the reason for social distancing, etc.

You complain about the old people who aren't getting their medical needs met now, but completely ignore what happens WHEN CV19 overwhelms your local hospital and they have a young guy - 43 - with well controlled diabetes or something and CV19, and your 72 year old stroke victim or heart attack victim and 10 others who are old or with chronic illness - 12 or 13 in total, and there is ONE (1) BED. What in the hell do you think happens then? The old people you're worried about in other posts are told to suck it up and DIE because there is no other damn choice.

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Is it "far more contagious than the flu?"

Why aren't there thousands and thousands of new cases in Tampa? The massive Seminole Hard Rock refused to shut down. Thousands upon thousands of people - largely elderly too - all touching the same buttons day and night - and going back home. Every one of the dozen restaurants still open. No sanitizing special activities as reported by Tampa health officials - but no jurisdiction over NA land. It is larger and generally more crowded than Las Vegas mega casinos. So why isn't Tampa a covid-19 epicenter by now? Why isn't even 1 person with covid-19 who is touching the buttons of dozens of slot machines being then touched by hundreds and hundreds of people not causing a local pandemic of unthinkable proportions?

Your math makes all sorts of assumptions of infection rates and hospitalization rates. They you form your math logic on those assertions. A person can reach any conclusion they want if they just assert the base premises.

Old people are being told to suck it up and die - in the sense of delayed preventative and diagnostic examinations upon speculations of the future. You start by asserting speculated premises as truisms - and then do backwards logic from those core premises and assertions. Denying preventative healthcare NOW - because of speculating what the future might bring?

When and if your crisis comes, maybe then preventative healthcare would have to be delayed. But why now?

joko104 said:

Is it "far more contagious than the flu?"

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Yes. Look it up if you care about facts. If not, I'm not going to waste time doing it for you, and if you cannot be bothered to look up the R0 for CV19 versus the flu, I don't care about really anything you have to say. I tried, used Ohio's actual cases for you, extrapolated them out using reasonable assumptions. You just don't want to be bothered with any narrative that doesn't fit your biases.

Why do you think all these governors, and heads of government across the world are doing what they're doing if not for the numbers or those like them that I presented? Cause they're all idiots and you know better, but are so ignorant and lazy you cannot be bothered to look up the contagiousness data?

joko104 said:

...

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I don't always agree with your POV, but you're one of the more interesting members of this forum. This is obvious from the "OMG he doesn't have the right thoughts! Let's mock him until he shuts up!" response your posts draw from the lemmings.

AmNat said:

I don't always agree with your POV, but you're one of the more interesting members of this forum. This is obvious from the "OMG he doesn't have the right thoughts! Let's mock him until he shuts up!" response your posts draw from the lemmings.

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We are mocking demonstrable lies, untruths, falsehoods, attributing words to experts they never said.

joko104 said:

I read the Tampa mayor wants to order everyone in Tampa be put under house arrest for an indefinite period of time because there has been ONE covid-19 death. One death by covid-19. How many deaths has eliminating medical care for the elderly caused so far? Why would she care? She's rich. She's influential. She can get medical care and for her family. So can all rich people. But now most elderly can not. Basically all preventative medical care - and all other medical care - is being denied to the elderly. You are a woman and detect a lump in your breast? Sorry, no breast exam for you. It is your duty to slowing die of breast cancer for the common good of protecting the rich mayor of Tampa from maybe getting covid-19 from you. Have chest pain indicating a potential heart attack or stroke? No medical care for you. You just have to die to protect the mayor of Tampa from you. Difficulty breathing for COPD? Need treatment to stop early stage Alzheimers from advancing so quickly? Sorry, no medical care for you. That is saved for the mayor of Tampa and the other rich people. China knowingly has practices to allow viruses to tear thru their extreme excessive elderly population to kill them off due to their years-long one-child-policy. The USA also is increasing facing the costs of non-productive senior citizens. So the government has undertake the perfect method to kill off the elderly - all while claiming this is to protect them. It is as simple as to now deny them medical care. It isn't just China killing off their elderly by covid-19. It also is the American government killing off the elderly by denying medical care all in the lie of claiming this is to protect them. One death by covid-19. How many deaths by heart attack? How many women will die of breast cancer for now basically banned screening? How many people - particularly elderly - are now being killed off quickly or slowly over the long haul by denying them medical care they could get before the government shut down medical care? I could name off over a dozen elderly in our small community 100% of which whose doctor appointments have been cancelled. What justification is given to deny all but rich elderly people medical care here? 9 cases of covid-19, zero deaths. This plot to transfer trillions in wealth from the middle class to the super rich also is a method being used to ultimately minimally remove hundreds of thousands from the social security and medicare rolls by denying them medical care. They have decided most elderly now can't even see a doctor. The government did finally succeed in getting their death panels for the elderly. It is entirely based upon whether the elderly person is rich enough or powerful enough to be allowed medical care. Most elderly aren't. So they must die.

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Wow, times of stress can bring out the best in most people and the worst in a few others. That sure was a laundry list of disjointed rambling biased political BS. No one is being denied NEEDED healthcare because of the stay at home orders. NONE of the orders prevent a citizen from going to get groceries, medicine at the pharmacy, and if the medical system in your area isn't swamped by virus cases- life saving care. Routine breast screenings are different compared to women with higher risk factors for breast cancer. What the elderly need to weigh is risking exposure to the virus at the hospital for the routine care they are receiving... :doh

The 'plot' to transfer wealth from the middle class to the super wealthy has been going on for decades- every tax cut is another slap to the middle class. Every governor who refused to expand medicare under the ACA (the red 'fly-over' states) hurts the elderly poor.

Some posters just need to swing wildly and hope they hit something other than themselves... eace

chuckiechan said:

Don’t be giving the democrats ideas. If they kill the old off, the democrats can afford all that “free stuff”!

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Silly cave dwellers, tRump is already embracing the concept- and not for 'free stuff' for the masses but trying to stay in office (and out of the reach of any criminal charges).

If he can kill off the elderly he can save money on medicare and claim yet another tax cut for the super wealthy. He is openly rambling about ending the preventive social distancing/ stay at home orders going against health care PROFESSIONALS for political gain. Dan Patrick says the elderly should risk their health to 'save' the economy. (he ain't a democrat- or much of a caring person)

I know some on the rabid right never let a crisis go to waste but this is a new low... eace

notquiteright said:

Wow, times of stress can bring out the best in most people and the worst in a few others. That sure was a laundry list of disjointed rambling biased political BS. No one is being denied NEEDED healthcare because of the stay at home orders. NONE of the orders prevent a citizen from going to get groceries, medicine at the pharmacy, and if the medical system in your area isn't swamped by virus cases- life saving care. Routine breast screenings are different compared to women with higher risk factors for breast cancer. What the elderly need to weigh is risking exposure to the virus at the hospital for the routine care they are receiving... :doh

The 'plot' to transfer wealth from the middle class to the super wealthy has been going on for decades- every tax cut is another slap to the middle class. Every governor who refused to expand medicare under the ACA (the red 'fly-over' states) hurts the elderly poor.

Some posters just need to swing wildly and hope they hit something other than themselves... eace

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In fact, preventative medical care, surgery and diagnosis is being denied - justifying this by covid-19 to add to the list of reasons/excuses given.

Obama Care is a massive fraud. It shifted indigent healthcare from the wealthy - with indigent healthcare paid for by property taxes and hospital district special property taxes - to being paid for by working people. It not Republicans giving this massive tax break to the rich - it was Democrats and Obama. It also gave the excuse of denying medical care for lack of co-pay, which virtually no poor person can afford. Sure, you got Obama Care for free. All you need is the other 20% - that no poor person has. It encouraged employers to go to part time employees to allow paying for no employee's medical insurance.

There is an old fella we know who was diagnosised with cancer they would not treat because he lacked the $3000 copay required by Medicare. We paid the $3000. Otherwise they were just going to allow the cancer to advance and ultimately kill him - though at the last stage 4 weeks they'd have paid for hospice care.

Excuses to deny medical care is very much at the core of the current medical world. Universal medicare won't end it, but likely worsen this.

But you believe what you want to believe.

notquiteright said:

Silly cave dwellers, tRump is already embracing the concept- and not for 'free stuff' for the masses but trying to stay in office (and out of the reach of any criminal charges).

If he can kill off the elderly he can save money on medicare and claim yet another tax cut for the super wealthy. He is openly rambling about ending the preventive social distancing/ stay at home orders going against health care PROFESSIONALS for political gain. Dan Patrick says the elderly should risk their health to 'save' the economy. (he ain't a democrat- or much of a caring person)

I know some on the rabid right never let a crisis go to waste but this is a new low... eace

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You're being on this forum is using electricity and therefore you are killing the entire planet. How can you be so murderously unethical?!!!

"Stay at home" orders. Entire cities where people have summarily been placed under house arrest. :roll:

notquiteright said:

Wow, times of stress can bring out the best in most people and the worst in a few others. That sure was a laundry list of disjointed rambling biased political BS. No one is being denied NEEDED healthcare because of the stay at home orders. NONE of the orders prevent a citizen from going to get groceries, medicine at the pharmacy, and if the medical system in your area isn't swamped by virus cases- life saving care. Routine breast screenings are different compared to women with higher risk factors for breast cancer. What the elderly need to weigh is risking exposure to the virus at the hospital for the routine care they are receiving... :doh

The 'plot' to transfer wealth from the middle class to the super wealthy has been going on for decades- every tax cut is another slap to the middle class. Every governor who refused to expand medicare under the ACA (the red 'fly-over' states) hurts the elderly poor.

Some posters just need to swing wildly and hope they hit something other than themselves... eace

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Other comment - to this day, not ONE Democrat in Congress nor running for president has ever said they will close the loopholes by which the super rich pay zero taxes. NEVER. Raise the tax rate to 95% and they still will pay $0. They buy Democrats as easily as Republicans. Your messages are just blue team partisan groupie messages like any other cult worshiping the propaganda of their cult leaders.

Hari Seldon said:

He's probably mad they canceled a well care visit.

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Probably mad the elderly arent taking fox news seriously.

joko104 said:

That's what "stay in place orders" are. They just picked clever words. If the government orders you to "stay at home," the government has put you under house arrest.

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Please, don't be stupid. There are no "stay in place" orders of any legal nature as you lie about. You lie, purposely spreading disinformation from your ignorant head. Meanwhile, people get sick and die. Go away.

Massive Spike in NYC ‘Cardiac Arrest’ Deaths Seen as Sign of COVID-19 Undercounting
Hundreds of people are now dying at home in New York City daily

The FDNY reported a nearly 400 percent increase in "cardiac arrest" home deaths in late March and early April, a spike that officials say is almost certainly driven by COVID-19, whether they were formally diagnosed or not.

Between March 20 and April 5, the department recorded nearly 2,200 such deaths, versus 450 in the same period last year, according to data it provided on Friday.

The numbers are dramatically higher across the board -- the numbers of calls, the number of deaths and particularly the percentage of such calls that end in death.

In just the first five days of April, more than 70 percent of cardiac arrest calls ended in a pronunciation of death every day. Some days, the numbers were up tenfold versus a year earlier -- and everyone acknowledges there's only one likely cause.

Massive Spike in NYC ‘Cardiac Arrest’ Deaths Seen as Sign of COVID-19 Undercounting – NBC New York

Told you so... Denying medical care and all the other deaths caused by what the government is doing with covid-19

How many people with yet detected cancer will not be diagnosed before it has become too advanced to stop - being told their examination isn't "imminently critical?"
Denied a mammogram?
Denied a chest x-ray?
Denied an appointment for a chest pain or arm pain?
Denied an exam for a tingling in their leg or arm - which is a blood clot they will die of for lack of an exam?
How many elderly won't eat or fill their prescriptions - terrified to go outside?
How many all-alone people will commit suicide - when it is KNOWN solitary is so hard on people it is considered torture?
What is the effect of no one - no one - getting the annual exam? Not taking children for their vaccinations or a tetanus shot or to treat an infection?
Child not as school so no teacher to detect child abuse. Or suicide warnings?

Added is child abuse. Police not responding to calls resulting in domestic violence, rape, murder?
People who worked their whole life for their business - now ordered out of business and in financial ruin - a pauper the rest of their lives?
Lose of their job - permanently.
Lose of their home. Lose of job, home, car - leading to divorce and a broken home.
Children terrified by 24/7 television bio-terrorism
Lose of child custody.
Economic harm is real harm

All for the theory that forcing everyone to go to WalMart - the most dangerous place possible for being infected and infecting others!

This isn't about covid-19. It is about shutting down 100,000 shops and businesses to force people to give their money to WalMart and buy on Amazon - to obliterate the merchant class (middle class) on behalf of the super rich - shifting nearly all income and wealth to the already richest people on earth. Study history. It was the merchant class than lead to the advent of human and civil rights. Eliminate the merchant class/middle class - and the future is corporate fascism - a few dozen of the wealthiest people on earth having all the power and all the wealth - everyone existing only to serve them.

Brilliantly, the richest people on earth bought up all of the television networks and new channels, all newspapers and control the Internet. You hear NOTHING other than what they want you to hear. Know NOTHING but what they tell you - and 24/7 they tell you nothing - absolutely nothing - matters but to be living in terror and hate mongering about covid-19.

So I predict essentially none of you care how many people die of heart attacks. A few might resort to trying to divert, personally attack me or posting their generic ranting against Trump.

Hawkeye10 said:

Where sir is your quote?

You are not yellow R U?

We live in desperate times,...kindly attempt to measure up!

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The Democrats created a hoax that tanked the stock market that tricked the media to lie about Trump which forced Trump to kill old people which decimated Fox News viewer base which left Trump without a media campaign arm which lost him the election.

It could happen.

And, of course, it is critical that the government literally outlaw children and grandchildren even going to check on their elderly, ill, disabled, dependent and possibly all alone parent or grandparent - to then die alone of a heart attack when a trip to the doctor and a simple cheap prescription would have saved their life.

I haven't read hardly any of you having any REAL concerns for the elderly - demanding those who can even go anywhere go to the place they MOST LIKELY will contract covid-19 - WalMart because you support ordering WalMart's small businesses with few customers are shut down by government decree on behalf of WalMart, Amazon and other mega billion dollar corporations.

What most of you care about is that those people are all denied medical care for purely selfish reasons. Even though not 1/4th of the beds reserved for covid-19 have been used, you want every one denied any exams for which it isn't known the person will imminently die - and that can't be known except by going to the hospital. They must die because maybe you'll get covid-19 and want those hospital beds left empty in case you need it.

Americans and the USA has any suffering all this brings because you did it to yourself - all to save 9 cent on a roll of tape made in a child-abuse slave labor Chinese sweatshop - your secular religion of materialist greed - exactly as the non-stop 24/7 infomercials that TV, the newspaper, radio and Internet that you worship as your secular preachers on TV tell you. Nearly all of you don't really care how many people die. Suffer. Lose everything. Nothing matters but materialistically benefiting from slave labor stuff none of you even need.

70% of the population here is retired. But most of you still don't think they have been made desperately isolated in terror enough and don't expose themselves to covid-19 enough in WalMart and grocery stores. KILL 'EM OFF - lying, claiming this is to protect them. As immoral and amoral sociopathic and sadistic personal materialist greed as it gets.

Everyone knows where these mass killer virus comes from. They have all be reopened too. Don't say a word, do nothing. Protect that 9 cents you save on a roll of tape - more important that life itself.

You bet I angry. Elderly people are dying alone of completely preventable deaths because it is worth trillions to the richest people on earth - and saves you 9 cents on a roll of tape.

All the talk about doing this to protect the elderly is a lie - sadistic and transparent lie.

Of the trillions and trillions being spent, how much as been spent to help the elderly financially now that the person who helped them with rent and food is unemployed? $0

How much of the trillions and trillions for programs to assure the isolated elder are checked up on, have food, have human contact? $0

It is all going elsewhere. To corporations. To governments. Business loans. Some crumbs to the unemployed - they'll maybe get later.

To the elderly? $0. They are supposed to silently die off one way or the other - whether by covid-19 forced by government orders to go to the most dangerous of all possible stores - or heart attacks, strokes, cancer, starvation, lack of medical, other preventable medical-cause deaths, suicide or just losing their will to take care of themselves - losing the will live desperately alone in hopeless terror as TV tells them 24/7. I see that desperation of the elderly here every day. We hear in on the phone every day by the hundreds.

It isn't a question of whether the government wants elderly to die as a conspiracy theory. They are dying and not of covid-19. Like with Chinese, to kill off the elderly via the covid-19 bio-terrorism campaign all the government of China or the United States has to do is nothing. The total control of all information sources of the richest people on earth will take care of it.