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Thanks, Trump; people who need chloroquine not getting it

GreatNews2night said:
Not really. I posted some four or five times (you can find these in my posting history) exempting Trump of responsibility for the outbreak. I said in all words that given the virological characteristics of the SARS-CoV-2, Trump would not have been able to contain it and prevent its presence in the United States even if he had jumped on it and adopted draconian measures at the first hint of trouble in China.

But this moron who is not a medical doctor should stop dispensing treatment advice.
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You might have exempted him from the existance of the disease, but not the outbreak.
 
GreatNews2night said:
Trump said he has a hunch that chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine will work against the SARS-CoV-2.

He should listen to his own administration's expert, Dr. Fauci, who by the way right after Trump said this nonsense, underlined that these drugs are not proven to work against the coronavirus.

What is exactly the medical school Trump has graduated from? I thought he was a mediocre college student with a real state major at UPenn. Maybe I missed his graduation from Harvard Medical School, Johns Hopkins, Columbia or Duke or, I don't know, that would be asking for too much, but maybe he graduated in secret from a pay-for-play medical school in the Caribbean, at least??

He said, literally, "I'm smart, I feel good about it" - I guess the stable genius doesn't really need an MD degree to know about medical care and what drugs treat what.

Meanwhile, there's been a run on these drugs, which are now in short supply in pharmacies everywhere.

Patients with severe lupus who need these medications to stay alive, say thanks to Trump for his superior medical expertise. They can't find it.

Yes, there are studies looking into these drugs to treat the virus but it's all inconclusive right now; there are actually other more promising avenues (like remdesivir).

The bottom line is, it's not for the POTUS to say what drugs might work for this infection.

We are in such good hands!
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You would complain if Trump cured cancer.
 
Without going through clinical trials first, a powerful drug being freely prescribed is an invitation for more deaths. In 1918 during the Spanish Flu, aspirin was thought to have good effects, so doctors prescribed huge doses to virus victims. Those patients came down with 'aspirin pneumonia.' See https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(01)40960-3/fulltext.

High aspirin dosing levels used to treat patients during the 1918-1919 pandemic are now known to cause, in some cases, toxicity and a dangerous build up of fluid in the lungs, which may have contributed to the incidence and severity of symptoms, bacterial infections, and mortality.Oct 3, 2009 Aspirin Misuse May Have Made 1918 Flu Pandemic Worse -- ScienceDaily

Karen M. Starko. Salicylates and Pandemic Influenza Mortality, 1918%u20131919 Pharmacology, Pathology, and Historic Evidence. Clinical Infectious Diseases, 2009; DOI: 10.1086/606060
 
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There are several unapproved developmental drugs that are being used to treat severe COVID victims under the compassionate use clause of the FDA. One of them is Remdesivir. Why not let the FDA push for using these newer drugs?

See: A medicine called "Favipiravir" has been tested "very https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/18/japanese-flu-drug-clearly-effective-in-treating-coronavirus-says-chinaeffective" against the world-sweeping COVID-19 caused by novel coronavirus, an official from China's sci-tech department in Beijing announced on Tuesday. See
 
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JacksinPA said:
There are several unapproved developmental drugs that are being used to treat severe COVID victims under the compassionate use clause of the FDA. One of them is Remdesivir. Why not let the FDA push for using these newer drugs?
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Chloroquine was tested in France with positive results, initially at least.
 
Kusa said:
You would complain if Trump cured cancer.
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No, I wouldn't. But fat chance. The stable genius is not about to find the cure for cancer.

I don't automatically complain of all things Trump, like I've mentioned above (several posts today and yesterday exempting him from responsibility for the SARS-CoV-2 domestic outbreak).

But when he screws up like he did on this specific topic (and he does it often), then, yes, it is fair to point it out.
 
apdst said:
Chloroquine was tested in France with positive results, initially at least.
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See post #6 above. I'm well aware of it. But it's still very inconclusive (like Dr. Fauci said right after Trump tried to push it as something better than it currently is).

My point is not if hydroxychloroquine + azythromycin will ultimately work. Maybe they will, great, I'll welcome it, obviously, or some of the various others being studied (I posted a list of them all, one of these days).

My point is that it is NOT up to Trump to be "prescribing" unproven treatments and contributing to a run on a drug that is potentially dangerous if misused, and necessary to other patients who depend on it to treat other serious auto-immune diseases.

Trump is not a medical doctor. He should shut up about specifics of treatment, and leave it to Dr. Fauci.

Trump is a moron.
 
JacksinPA said:
Without going through clinical trials first, a powerful drug being freely prescribed is an invitation for more deaths. In 1918 during the Spanish Flu, aspirin was thought to have good effects, so doctors prescribed huge doses to virus victims. Those patients came down with 'aspirin pneumonia.' See https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(01)40960-3/fulltext.

High aspirin dosing levels used to treat patients during the 1918-1919 pandemic are now known to cause, in some cases, toxicity and a dangerous build up of fluid in the lungs, which may have contributed to the incidence and severity of symptoms, bacterial infections, and mortality.Oct 3, 2009 Aspirin Misuse May Have Made 1918 Flu Pandemic Worse -- ScienceDaily

Karen M. Starko. Salicylates and Pandemic Influenza Mortality, 1918%u20131919 Pharmacology, Pathology, and Historic Evidence. Clinical Infectious Diseases, 2009; DOI: 10.1086/606060
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Yes, absolutely. Self-medication is rarely a good idea. It is not for nothing that pre-med college programs, medical schools, and residency training programs exist. It takes a minimum of 12 years of hard studies and hard practice to acquire a working knowledge of the medical field, and Trump absolutely does not possess any expertise on this field. He should just shut up about these specifics. People will get hurt, both by misusing the drug, and by it being in short supply to those who really need it to treat their autoimmune conditions.
 
GreatNews2night said:
There was one study done in France with a combination of hydroxychloroquine and azythromycin, very small study with 26 patients. It seems to have helped, although one of the patients still died, giving a mortality rate of 3.8% which is similar to what it's been seen anyway so the study is very inconclusive.

What probably happens is that these drugs also have anti-inflammatory properties. Sometimes when you threat severe bronchitis with Z-Pack, what you are actually treating is the inflammation rather than the bacteria. So whether or not this acts against the virus itself is still up in the air.

Trump has jumped on this because it is something currently available.
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Yeah, you might want to look closely at that study.

It was ‘viral load’, not outcomes, and the viral load wasn’t even quantified in most of the controls.

Here’s a pretty good tweetorial on it.


https://twitter.com/gaetanburgio/status/1241201751916568576?s=21

Very weak.
 
GreatNews2night said:
Trump said he has a hunch that chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine will work against the SARS-CoV-2.

He should listen to his own administration's expert, Dr. Fauci, who by the way right after Trump said this nonsense, underlined that these drugs are not proven to work against the coronavirus.

What is exactly the medical school Trump has graduated from? I thought he was a mediocre college student with a real state major at UPenn. Maybe I missed his graduation from Harvard Medical School, Johns Hopkins, Columbia or Duke or, I don't know, that would be asking for too much, but maybe he graduated in secret from a pay-for-play medical school in the Caribbean, at least??

He said, literally, "I'm smart, I feel good about it" - I guess the stable genius doesn't really need an MD degree to know about medical care and what drugs treat what.

Meanwhile, there's been a run on these drugs, which are now in short supply in pharmacies everywhere.

Patients with severe lupus who need these medications to stay alive, say thanks to Trump for his superior medical expertise. They can't find it.

Yes, there are studies looking into these drugs to treat the virus but it's all inconclusive right now; there are actually other more promising avenues (like remdesivir).

The bottom line is, it's not for the POTUS to say what drugs might work for this infection.

We are in such good hands!
Click to expand...
Well Dr. Fauci said there was only anecdotal information hydroxychloroquine might work. That is not exactly true. The French have done a small 45 patient study. It had a control group. They found the combination of a Z pack and hydroxychlorquine was very effective treating the disease. THERE NEEDS TO BE A LARGE SCALE STUDY. But the evidence is NOT JUST ANECDOTAL Trump is right to be hopeful its his job. Trump needs to have the government have a couple more pharm companies setup and start producing extra zithromax and Hydroxychlorquine
 
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digsbe said:
Blaming Trump is very very misplaced. As a healthcare provider with many friends also in the field I can say there was a study published that stated hydroxychloroquine may have an impact on treating the Wuhan Coronavirus. The response to this news is much like how everyone has been hoarding toilet paper. I have at least 3 pharmacist friends tell me local doctors have written illegitimate prescriptions for their family members for massive quantities of the drug (one friend said a doc wrote scripts for their family of 5 to each receive 360 tablets of hydroxychloroquine). Warehouses and pharmacies are already unable to order more due to demand spiking based on preliminary data that it may help.

This isn't Trump's fault, and if anything mirrors the panic purchasing of the medication much like how people are hoarding daily essentials.
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digsbe said:
Blaming Trump is very very misplaced. As a healthcare provider with many friends also in the field I can say there was a study published that stated hydroxychloroquine may have an impact on treating the Wuhan Coronavirus. The response to this news is much like how everyone has been hoarding toilet paper. I have at least 3 pharmacist friends tell me local doctors have written illegitimate prescriptions for their family members for massive quantities of the drug (one friend said a doc wrote scripts for their family of 5 to each receive 360 tablets of hydroxychloroquine). Warehouses and pharmacies are already unable to order more due to demand spiking based on preliminary data that it may help.

This isn't Trump's fault, and if anything mirrors the panic purchasing of the medication much like how people are hoarding daily essentials.
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Lolwut?

Announcing a ‘miracle cure’ to the nation based on weak data isn’t his fault??

And now it’s surprising people are running out to get it, potentially depriving people with lupus who actually DO need the drug?

I suppose if he went out and shot someone on 5th Avenue, you would excuse that too.

Jesus.
 
Threegoofs said:
Yeah, you might want to look closely at that study.

It was ‘viral load’, not outcomes, and the viral load wasn’t even quantified in most of the controls.

Here’s a pretty good tweetorial on it.


https://twitter.com/gaetanburgio/status/1241201751916568576?s=21

Very weak.
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Yep, very very weak.

Clinical presentation seemed similar between HCQ & control but sample size is so low, difficult to conclude really. Seriously underpowered. Outcome from the study is based on viral load only and not on clinical outcome and I can see a major flaw here as clinical outcome critical.
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And that's what the stable genius is pushing for...
 
SLC said:
Well Dr. Fauci said there was only anecdotal information hydroxychloroquine might work. That is not exactly true. The French have done a small 45 patient study. It had a control group. They found the combination of a Z pack and hydroxychlorquine was very effective treating the disease. THERE NEEDS TO BE A LARGE SCALE STUDY. But the evidence is NOT JUST ANECDOTAL Trump is right to be hopeful its his job. Trump needs to have the government have a couple more pharm companies setup and start producing extra zithromax and Hydroxychlorquine
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No. Like Threegoofs said above, the treatment WASN'T very effective. It decreased the viral load, big deal. A patient still died, and the outcome in the treated group was similar to the outcome in the control group.

The patient who died probably died a little happier with a smaller viral load [insert sarcasm here].

The bottom line is, this is VERY preliminary and no reason for Trump to be pushing for a run on this drug.
 
Threegoofs said:
Lolwut?

Announcing a ‘miracle cure’ to the nation based on weak data isn’t his fault??

And now it’s surprising people are running out to get it, potentially depriving people with lupus who actually DO need the drug?

I suppose if he went out and shot someone on 5th Avenue, you would excuse that too.

Jesus.
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Agreed. By the way, there's nothing *potential* about the people with lupus not finding it. It's already happening.
 
GreatNews2night said:
Agreed. By the way, there's nothing *potential* about the people with lupus not finding it. It's already happening.
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I’m ashamed that a trained Heath care professional is thinking its OK for a politician to promote the drug on national TV.
 
Trump should be muzzled. Let the adults talk. Our lives depend on it.
 
Anybody else feel like Dr. Fouci doesn't really say anything smart other than wash your hands? I think they need to give him a week or two off. I'm not impressed by him at all.
 
GreatNews2night said:
There was one study done in France with a combination of hydroxychloroquine and azythromycin, very small study with 26 patients. It seems to have helped, although one of the patients still died, giving a mortality rate of 3.8% which is similar to what it's been seen anyway so the study is very inconclusive.

What probably happens is that these drugs also have anti-inflammatory properties. Sometimes when you threat severe bronchitis with Z-Pack, what you are actually treating is the inflammation rather than the bacteria. So whether or not this acts against the virus itself is still up in the air.

Trump has jumped on this because it is something currently available.
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Exactly.

We don't know if this combo of drugs really is more effective than standard treatments being used. I suspect it probably does help prevent mild cases from spiraling out of control to pneumonia, but it's doubtful it's very useful to those already in critical condition, who have been sick for longer time periods.

The only solution is a nationwide shelter in place order, with all debt, utility bills, and mortgage payments suspended for six months. We hunker down, give people unemployment benefits for food, inject trillions of emergency stimulus, and then allow the virus to run its course on those already infected for the next 1-2 months, then slowly lift restrictions.
 
Threegoofs said:
I’m ashamed that a trained Heath care professional is thinking its OK for a politician to promote the drug on national TV.
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That goes to show how badly this Trump cult of personality can blind people.
 
MovingPictures said:
Exactly.

We don't know if this combo of drugs really is more effective than standard treatments being used. I suspect it probably does help prevent mild cases from spiraling out of control to pneumonia, but it's doubtful it's very useful to those already in critical condition, who have been sick for longer time periods.

The only solution is a nationwide shelter in place order, with all debt, utility bills, and mortgage payments suspended for six months. We hunker down, give people unemployment benefits for food, inject trillions of emergency stimulus, and then allow the virus to run its course on those already infected for the next 1-2 months, then slowly lift restrictions.
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That would be the solution but we know it will never be done. I still have some hope that when the peak passes in France, Italy, and Spain, people will notice that their lockdowns have worked. But we can't expect a lot of rationality from our dear orange leader.

By the way, I was mistaken, the combination of drugs above does seem to have a specific antiviral property since it decreased the viral load (which is the number of viral particles you can find in a certain amount of blood), but just, it doesn't seem to have affected the outcomes in this French small study, so, still very preliminary and inconclusive, and not something to go tweeting about like Trump is doing.
 
GreatNews2night said:
Trump said he has a hunch that chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine will work against the SARS-CoV-2.

He should listen to his own administration's expert, Dr. Fauci, who by the way right after Trump said this nonsense, underlined that these drugs are not proven to work against the coronavirus.

What is exactly the medical school Trump has graduated from? I thought he was a mediocre college student with a real state major at UPenn. Maybe I missed his graduation from Harvard Medical School, Johns Hopkins, Columbia or Duke or, I don't know, that would be asking for too much, but maybe he graduated in secret from a pay-for-play medical school in the Caribbean, at least??

He said, literally, "I'm smart, I feel good about it" - I guess the stable genius doesn't really need an MD degree to know about medical care and what drugs treat what.

Meanwhile, there's been a run on these drugs, which are now in short supply in pharmacies everywhere.

Patients with severe lupus who need these medications to stay alive, say thanks to Trump for his superior medical expertise. They can't find it.

Yes, there are studies looking into these drugs to treat the virus but it's all inconclusive right now; there are actually other more promising avenues (like remdesivir).

The bottom line is, it's not for the POTUS to say what drugs might work for this infection.

We are in such good hands!
Click to expand...

And.................???
 
apdst said:
Orange man bad. :lamo
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And he lies every minute. Ask WaPo and Bloomberg. You know, that guy who spent a half billion for one electoral vote.
 
Threegoofs said:
Looking at the favipiravir data... that doesn’t look as good as the hype either.

Favipiravir versus Arbidol for COVID-19: A Randomized Clinical Trial | medRxiv
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Yep, "but there was no statistical difference observed of auxiliary oxygen therapy or noninvasive mechanical ventilation rate" so it doesn't help the more critical cases.

What about remdesivir? What have you read about it? I know it's being studied in Nebraska and China. Any preliminary results? I've stopped looking. I'm getting saturation.
 
Mongidig said:
Anybody else feel like Dr. Fouci doesn't really say anything smart other than wash your hands? I think they need to give him a week or two off. I'm not impressed by him at all.
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Thanks for letting me know who to ignore around here.
 
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