• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is America overreacting?

Is America overreacting?

  • Total voters
    116
  • Poll closed .
Glitch said:
Keep the faith! :mrgreen:

I'll fix my own broken femur, as I have done before. I wouldn't mind a little help if it were to happen again, their profession really wouldn't matter. Just an extra pair of hands is all I would need. I didn't need anesthesia either, but I'm glad you are paying to keep them employed. Everyone needs a job and they wouldn't have one without ignorant consumers and their unquestioning misguided beliefs.
Click to expand...

Good for you, tough guy. Do you want a cookie or something for not believing in modern medicine that's resulted in our life expectancy going up by about 35 years since 1900?
 
Mithros said:
We are not doing enough. This should be obvious to anyone with even a minimal understanding of basic math and science. The sole reason we're in this debacle is because instead of doing enough, idiots have been under-reacting and ignoring the problem. Instead of paying a little bit of prevention, we're now paying dearly in consequences.

  • We didn't have have enough testing.
  • We don't have enough protection for medical personal.
  • We don't have enough respirators and ventilators.

If we had tested early and aggressively we could have had a small targeted response. There would have been sporadic shutdowns, but for most of us life would have gone on largely as before..... exactly like every other epidemic. These epidemics happen often. What's new is that instead of taking early action, we ignored it. And because of this the disease spread beyond where we could monitor it. This is why we have to shut everything down. It's not because we need to shut everything down, its because we don't know where we need to and where we don't.
Click to expand...

What a drama queen. Next you will be telling us the world is coming to an end.

COVID-19 is a very mild strain of influenza. Influenza hits the US every year and combined with pneumonia is the eighth leading cause of death in the US. The CDC is reporting a grand total of 544 deaths in the US in the 8 weeks from COVID-19 since it has been confirmed in the US. In 2018 alone there were more than 1,500 US deaths from influenza PER WEEK. That is almost three times the number of COVID-19 cases in one eighth the time.

There was no massive panic in 2018. However, since 2020 is an election year Democrats and their sycophants in the media decided to incite panic concerning a very mild influenza virus in order to seek some political advantage in November. It won't work. In another week or two COVID-19 will peak and begin to die out as quickly as it spread. It may take a little longer to peak due to the panic and social isolation Democrats created, but my the end of May the number dying from COVID-19 will be very sporadic. As is normal with every strain of influenza that hits the US each and every year.
 
JasperL said:
Good for you, tough guy. Do you want a cookie or something for not believing in modern medicine that's resulted in our life expectancy going up by about 35 years since 1900?
Click to expand...

Who said anything about not believing in medicine? I used to be a certified EMT, but I have since allowed my certification to lapse. Of course I believe in medicine. How do you think I fixed my broken leg? Oh, wait, you are under the misconception that medicine is a science, right? :lamo

The reason our life expectancy has increased has absolutely nothing to do with medicine and everything to do with improvements in transportation and our diet. It is the global economy the had the biggest effect on our extended life-span since 1900. Living in Alaska in 1900 I would be eating a lot of salmon, moose, and caribou. I wouldn't have access to tomatoes, onions, corn, or many other items that make up my modern diet because those goods couldn't be delivered in 1900. Now they can.

You can thank Global Warming.
 
Last edited:
Glitch said:
Who said anything about not believing in medicine? I used to be a certified EMT, but I have since allowed my certification to lapse. Of course I believe in medicine. How do you think I fixed my broken leg? Oh, wait, you are under the misconception that medicine is a science, right?
Click to expand...

Call it science, call it a skill, I do not care what word you use. If you were an EMT you had and used tools and medicines that saved plenty of lives, and those who got to the hospital were saved by people with years of training and experience, using medicines and techniques and tools unheard of 120 years ago.

The reason our life expectancy has increased has absolutely nothing to do with medicine and everything to do with improvements in transportation and our diet. It is the global economy the had the biggest effect on our extended life-span since 1900. Living in Alaska in 1900 I would be eating a lot of salmon, moose, and caribou. I wouldn't have access to tomatoes, onions, corn, or many other items that make up my modern diet because those goods couldn't be delivered in 1900. Now they can.

You can thank Global Warming.
Click to expand...

That's ignorant BS, sorry. No need to entertain nonsense like that any further. Do what you want. If you get sick, stay at home - fine with me. :peace
 
JasperL said:
It's not about the initials, but experience in a field.

I mean, if you want to give your neighbor a drill and some epoxy to fill a cavity in your mouth, you can go for it, I guess, but I'd rather have a dentist do it. Same with if you get charged with a crime - defend yourself if you want to go to jail, or hire a criminal defense attorney. Those years of experience might come in handy, or not, since you have the internet and can read about how to do it just as well as that attorney with his fancy degree and all that. I once got to observe a surgery once where the doc fixed up a guy with two broken femurs and a crushed kneecap, and I'll work cheap if you ever have that problem! After all, trusting the doctor with years of experience is like trusting an Imam!
Click to expand...
However we should also remember that 'experts' don't always agree with each other and within that mix we should be using our own experience and judgement as to who might be right or wrong.
 
Glitch said:
What a drama queen. Next you will be telling us the world is coming to an end.

COVID-19 is a very mild strain of influenza. Influenza hits the US every year and combined with pneumonia is the eighth leading cause of death in the US. The CDC is reporting a grand total of 544 deaths in the US in the 8 weeks from COVID-19 since it has been confirmed in the US. In 2018 alone there were more than 1,500 US deaths from influenza PER WEEK. That is almost three times the number of COVID-19 cases in one eighth the time.

There was no massive panic in 2018. However, since 2020 is an election year Democrats and their sycophants in the media decided to incite panic concerning a very mild influenza virus in order to seek some political advantage in November. It won't work. In another week or two COVID-19 will peak and begin to die out as quickly as it spread. It may take a little longer to peak due to the panic and social isolation Democrats created, but my the end of May the number dying from COVID-19 will be very sporadic. As is normal with every strain of influenza that hits the US each and every year.
Click to expand...
A very mild strain of Influenza?

Last time I checked, Italy didn't vote in the US election. I suppose every other country on earth is shutting down because of Democrat hysteria..... Do you really think Russian troll farms are immune? The more people who get sick because your lies and misinformation, the greater the chance you'll catch it. And sure, you probably won't even notice it. And even if you get symptoms, you probably won't die.... probably. There's only like a 10% chance you'll spend a month in the hospital and have significant lung damage.
 
grip said:
The reasoning for the shutdown and restrictions is to delay the rate of infections, so the medical system doesn't get overwhelmed, which it's estimated to anyway. COVID-19 only stops spreading once we build resistance through a herd immunity of 60-80% infected or a vaccine is available earliest estimates 12-18 months. So, why the extended shutdown and damaging of the economy if we're mostly doomed to catch it anyway? If modern civilization is severely damaged, won't that cause even more deaths?

Some Ask a Taboo Question: Is America Overreacting to Coronavirus?

The unknown and unprecedented nature of the disease is stoking fear among Americans. Seventy-nine percent of respondents said drastic headlines about how society is changing is the No. 1 reason they are fearful. Seventy-eight percent said they are primarily scared because of the deluge of news about people fighting over products at the grocery store; 75% pointed to the constant stream of reactions to the outbreak on social media.

"It's the kerosene on the fire of the news cycle. Every hour, some news event is coming out that's creating a lot of fear and anxiety among Americans. We've never had a crisis in America with the sophistication of social media in this participative way, amplifying fear. Social media can also amplify good news when it comes, but there doesn't seem to be good news yet," said John Gerzema, CEO of The Harris Poll.

The poll also found, unsurprisingly, that work is being disrupted to some degree for all Americans. The biggest changes workers have seen from their employers are postponing work travel and remote work. Eighteen percent of respondents said COVID-19 has decreased their productivity.
Click to expand...

A failure of leadership.
 
Glitch said:
Who said anything about not believing in medicine? I used to be a certified EMT, but I have since allowed my certification to lapse. Of course I believe in medicine. How do you think I fixed my broken leg? Oh, wait, you are under the misconception that medicine is a science, right? :lamo

The reason our life expectancy has increased has absolutely nothing to do with medicine and everything to do with improvements in transportation and our diet. It is the global economy the had the biggest effect on our extended life-span since 1900. Living in Alaska in 1900 I would be eating a lot of salmon, moose, and caribou. I wouldn't have access to tomatoes, onions, corn, or many other items that make up my modern diet because those goods couldn't be delivered in 1900. Now they can.

You can thank Global Warming.
Click to expand...

The increase in life expectancy from 1900 to 2000 is due to government action in public health.

Many of those things could be delivered by 1900, thanks to railroads that were heavily subsidized by government.
Although, products like milk might have killed you, until the government regulated their production and storage.
You would still have had to worry about infections, until government subsidized the research and production of antibiotics.

You get the picture.
 
grip said:
The reasoning for the shutdown and restrictions is to delay the rate of infections, so the medical system doesn't get overwhelmed, which it's estimated to anyway. COVID-19 only stops spreading once we build resistance through a herd immunity of 60-80% infected or a vaccine is available earliest estimates 12-18 months. So, why the extended shutdown and damaging of the economy if we're mostly doomed to catch it anyway? If modern civilization is severely damaged, won't that cause even more deaths?

Some Ask a Taboo Question: Is America Overreacting to Coronavirus?

The unknown and unprecedented nature of the disease is stoking fear among Americans. Seventy-nine percent of respondents said drastic headlines about how society is changing is the No. 1 reason they are fearful. Seventy-eight percent said they are primarily scared because of the deluge of news about people fighting over products at the grocery store; 75% pointed to the constant stream of reactions to the outbreak on social media.

"It's the kerosene on the fire of the news cycle. Every hour, some news event is coming out that's creating a lot of fear and anxiety among Americans. We've never had a crisis in America with the sophistication of social media in this participative way, amplifying fear. Social media can also amplify good news when it comes, but there doesn't seem to be good news yet," said John Gerzema, CEO of The Harris Poll.

The poll also found, unsurprisingly, that work is being disrupted to some degree for all Americans. The biggest changes workers have seen from their employers are postponing work travel and remote work. Eighteen percent of respondents said COVID-19 has decreased their productivity.
Click to expand...

Why do you think that's not a valid reason to try and slow it down? What do you think the workforce will do if they know that going to work will make them sick and there's no one available to treat them? And what happens when people start dying at home because the hospitals are full? Do you really expect coroners to pick up bodies when they don't have enough protective gear? Do you think the population is going to happily go back to work while everyone around them gets sick? We can't even get people to not stockpile toilet paper.

If we had enough ventilators, tests, icu beds, masks etc... then we could be having this conversation. But do to a complete lack of leadership and basic competence we don't.
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
However we should also remember that 'experts' don't always agree with each other and within that mix we should be using our own experience and judgement as to who might be right or wrong.
Click to expand...

OK, that's fine, but in all these discussions about opening up the economy, I've yet to see a single person who is remotely described as an expert weigh in on what that means to cases, and therefore ICU/hospital capacity, and the deaths that follow. What I see in the news are a bunch of ignoramuses making evidence free, entirely subjective, baseless arguments.

If you can tell us, for example, what impact loosening restrictions in 14 days will have on cases, etc. then cite someone who's done the work. I don't think you can.

And what those arguments ignore is if the experts are right, it won't much matter what the states do or what Trump does because WHEN the healthcare system collapses under the weight of cases, and grandma and younger adults getting turned away to die for lack of space, will cause a panic and that will all by itself shut down the economy, but we'll have many thousands of unnecessary deaths because of it.

Point is I am sure the leaders of every country, and state in this country, are being presented with a simple choice. Take drastic action now and save a whole lot of people. Or delay, watch it grow to catastrophic levels, THEN take the drastic action demanded by the population when the local hospital is overrun with dead bodies.
 
Mithros said:
A very mild strain of Influenza?

Last time I checked, Italy didn't vote in the US election. I suppose every other country on earth is shutting down because of Democrat hysteria..... Do you really think Russian troll farms are immune? The more people who get sick because your lies and misinformation, the greater the chance you'll catch it. And sure, you probably won't even notice it. And even if you get symptoms, you probably won't die.... probably. There's only like a 10% chance you'll spend a month in the hospital and have significant lung damage.
Click to expand...

Italians are dying as a result of Italy's inferior communist medicine. When every aspect of the medical industry is entirely under government control, Italy is what you can expect. Something that clearly isn't happening in the US.
 
JasperL said:
It's not about the initials, but experience in a field.

I mean, if you want to give your neighbor a drill and some epoxy to fill a cavity in your mouth, you can go for it, I guess, but I'd rather have a dentist do it. Same with if you get charged with a crime - defend yourself if you want to go to jail, or hire a criminal defense attorney. Those years of experience might come in handy, or not, since you have the internet and can read about how to do it just as well as that attorney with his fancy degree and all that. I once got to observe a surgery once where the doc fixed up a guy with two broken femurs and a crushed kneecap, and I'll work cheap if you ever have that problem! After all, trusting the doctor with years of experience is like trusting an Imam!
Click to expand...

This IS the problem we have in society which started 2000 years ago when people were hoodwinked into believing in a sacrifice and a man rising from the dead by people who were in "authority" because they claimed to have witnessed the events. So, does a doctor know more about medicine than I do? Certainly. Does a psychiatrist know more about what makes someone tick than I do? Maybe. Should we believe them in everything they say? Absolutely NOT! We should consider what they have to say , research it, and then make up our minds. For instance, the same groups I just mentioned will tell you that someone can't quit drugs, alcohol or something else because they are "addicted" when I assert that anyone can quit by just making the decision to do it and they are not powerless needing "Gods" help like the stupid 12 Step AA program says. These are but a few examples.

It as said by some alleged expert who may know all there is to know about how a virus moves and multiplies and divides, its life span, where it came from, the scientific names of every single germ, bug, virus known to mankind, but that person is stepping away from his knowledge base when he says 2 million people will die i the United States. He creates panic and fear unnecessarily when people believe him because he has a few initials after his name and many others who are enraptured by authority figures through evolutionary survival mandates tell them that THEY too, should believe. That is fine for religion but not when we now have the ability to check this information out. In some cases, what the "experts" say may be true and if it is unimportant we won't bother checking. "Experts" and others "in the know" INSISTED that Trump colluded with Russia and tens of millions believed those people because of that and the tribe insisted they believe also.
 
Glitch said:
Italians are dying as a result of Italy's inferior communist medicine. When every aspect of the medical industry is entirely under government control, Italy is what you can expect. Something that clearly isn't happening in the US.
Click to expand...

You think that propaganda will save you? Do you think Russian troll farms aren't going to be infected?

This disease has ninja level transmission skill. Half of people don't show symptoms. The half that do are the most transmissible before they show symptoms. It has a 2-14 day incubation period averaging 5-7. Person A can pass it to Person B who passes it to person C who passes it to you BEFORE person A shows any symptoms. The people who are going to die in 2-3 weeks are already infected. I doubt any of them even know they're infected. You think that all the sacrifices we're making now is to stop it? HA! Stopping it was maybe possible in January. Now we're just fighting for time.
 
Paradoxical said:
This IS the problem we have in society which started 2000 years ago when people were hoodwinked into believing in a sacrifice and a man rising from the dead by people who were in "authority" because they claimed to have witnessed the events. So, does a doctor know more about medicine than I do? Certainly. Does a psychiatrist know more about what makes someone tick than I do? Maybe. Should we believe them in everything they say? Absolutely NOT! We should consider what they have to say , research it, and then make up our minds. For instance, the same groups I just mentioned will tell you that someone can't quit drugs, alcohol or something else because they are "addicted" when I assert that anyone can quit by just making the decision to do it and they are not powerless needing "Gods" help like the stupid 12 Step AA program says. These are but a few examples.
Click to expand...

Well, that's ONE bad example.

If you have an infection, should you go to the doctor, get the infection tested, and then take the drug that kills that bacteria, or do some research online then go and get what they have at the pharmacy and guess at the dose, or maybe some Vitamin C? If you want to die, or don't care if you do, the latter should work fine, but if I have a leg swelling up from infection, I'll trust the doctor, because he has years of training and experience, and access to an entire suite of advanced tools not available to me. YMMV of course.

It as said by some alleged expert who may know all there is to know about how a virus moves and multiplies and divides, its life span, where it came from, the scientific names of every single germ, bug, virus known to mankind, but that person is stepping away from his knowledge base when he says 2 million people will die i the United States.
Click to expand...

If you read the study, you know you're misrepresenting what it found, which is dishonest, or you didn't bother to read it and are making ignorant conclusions about what it said. What an entire team of experts reported is that without mitigation it would kill 2 million people. So that's ONE option - do nothing and if you do nothing, these are the results you can expect. We and every country on the planet are taking pretty drastic steps to avoid that 2 million dead figure, and they will work to some extent, as the study tells us, and as we have seen in other countries.

He creates panic and fear unnecessarily when people believe him because he has a few initials after his name and many others who are enraptured by authority figures through evolutionary survival mandates tell them that THEY too, should believe. That is fine for religion but not when we now have the ability to check this information out. In some cases, what the "experts" say may be true and if it is unimportant we won't bother checking.
Click to expand...

Assuming you did not read the study (the other option is you're being dishonest), you are dismissing it from a position of near total ignorance, while citing nothing for the alternative view.

Furthermore, if you're a governor or mayor, how should you make decisions in this crisis? By relying on the best minds out there, who have experience with pandemics, can model the spread, predict outcomes however imperfectly, or just take a WAG and put the 7 million lives in Tennessee at risk based on their gut, or what some hack lawyer at AEI said in an editorial yesterday?

It's a serious question. If you do NOT rely on experts, how should one make decisions?
 
JasperL said:
Well, that's ONE bad example.

If you have an infection, should you go to the doctor, get the infection tested, and then take the drug that kills that bacteria, or do some research online then go and get what they have at the pharmacy and guess at the dose, or maybe some Vitamin C? If you want to die, or don't care if you do, the latter should work fine, but if I have a leg swelling up from infection, I'll trust the doctor, because he has years of training and experience, and access to an entire suite of advanced tools not available to me. YMMV of course.



If you read the study, you know you're misrepresenting what it found, which is dishonest, or you didn't bother to read it and are making ignorant conclusions about what it said. What an entire team of experts reported is that without mitigation it would kill 2 million people. So that's ONE option - do nothing and if you do nothing, these are the results you can expect. We and every country on the planet are taking pretty drastic steps to avoid that 2 million dead figure, and they will work to some extent, as the study tells us, and as we have seen in other countries.



Assuming you did not read the study (the other option is you're being dishonest), you are dismissing it from a position of near total ignorance, while citing nothing for the alternative view.

Furthermore, if you're a governor or mayor, how should you make decisions in this crisis? By relying on the best minds out there, who have experience with pandemics, can model the spread, predict outcomes however imperfectly, or just take a WAG and put the 7 million lives in Tennessee at risk based on their gut, or what some hack lawyer at AEI said in an editorial yesterday?

It's a serious question. If you do NOT rely on experts, how should one make decisions?
Click to expand...

Addressing the last part of your post, the president and governors have no choice but to go along with the MSM manufactured crisis because if they don't they will be out of their jobs. Let us all see when this is all over just how much worse this is than the flu deaths reported annually by the CDC. Time will tell.
 
Paradoxical said:
Addressing the last part of your post, the president and governors have no choice but to go along with the MSM manufactured crisis because if they don't they will be out of their jobs. Let us all see when this is all over just how much worse this is than the flu deaths reported annually by the CDC. Time will tell.
Click to expand...

OK, if you want to make stupid statements like that, there's no point arguing.

And what you will hopefully do is ignore the drastic measures put in place to slow or limit the spread, note the relatively low numbers of deaths, and then stupidly conclude that the low numbers prove that the drastic measures that worked weren't needed. I'll take that result in a heartbeat.
 
JasperL said:
OK, if you want to make stupid statements like that, there's no point arguing.

And what you will hopefully do is ignore the drastic measures put in place to slow or limit the spread, note the relatively low numbers of deaths, and then stupidly conclude that the low numbers prove that the drastic measures that worked weren't needed. I'll take that result in a heartbeat.
Click to expand...

That IS the question. A major worldwide depression or a few hundred thousand more deaths worldwide over the half million we already have from the flu. Pick you poison.

But I see the out that people will have when the death rate is very low they will say it is because of the lock downs and it would have been far worse. If there is no vaccine or cure, what then? the same amount of deaths but spread out over years instead of one year?
 
JasperL said:
OK, if you want to make stupid statements like that, there's no point arguing.

And what you will hopefully do is ignore the drastic measures put in place to slow or limit the spread, note the relatively low numbers of deaths, and then stupidly conclude that the low numbers prove that the drastic measures that worked weren't needed. I'll take that result in a heartbeat.
Click to expand...
Here's a little perspective and how, maybe, the public was being played. This Is How Many People Die From the Flu Each Year, According to the CDC | Health.com
 
Paradoxical said:
That IS the question. A major worldwide depression or a few hundred thousand more deaths worldwide over the half million we already have from the flu. Pick you poison.

But I see the out that people will have when the death rate is very low they will say it is because of the lock downs and it would have been far worse. If there is no vaccine or cure, what then? the same amount of deaths but spread out over years instead of one year?
Click to expand...

Goodness - with one big spike, we overwhelm the system and there are LITERAL DEATH PANELS at every hospital, telling 9 of the 10 patients who need an ICU bed with one available who will have to do home and die a painful death and who can be saved. If it's spread out, all those who need an ICU bed get one, and we save far more people. So, no, the deaths are not the same with a single big peak versus the same number of cases spread out over a year or 18 months.

And if you don't know this, your ignorance of the issues involved near total. So I'll leave it there.
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
Here's a little perspective and how, maybe, the public was being played. This Is How Many People Die From the Flu Each Year, According to the CDC | Health.com
Click to expand...

Yeah, right, the public health experts, the pandemic experts, are all in every country ignoring that it's like the FLU!!! You should tell them this information that they must not know and if they did they'd let this new virus, far more contagious than the flu, and far more deadly, and for which there is no vaccine like there is for the flu, run wild!!

Sheesh. It's not the public that's being played, if they are, but roughly 50 governors, the WH, all the world's governments throughout Asia and Europe, India just locked their entire country down for 21 days - every household, 1.3 billion people! They're not allowed to leave for any reason - how they even get food is a mystery at this point. All of these world leaders are being played, and it's because none of them understand it's just like the flu!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry or be angry at this point.
 
Last edited:
JasperL said:
Goodness - with one big spike, we overwhelm the system and there are LITERAL DEATH PANELS at every hospital, telling 9 of the 10 patients who need an ICU bed with one available who will have to do home and die a painful death and who can be saved. If it's spread out, all those who need an ICU bed get one, and we save far more people. So, no, the deaths are not the same with a single big peak versus the same number of cases spread out over a year or 18 months.

And if you don't know this, your ignorance of the issues involved near total. So I'll leave it there.
Click to expand...

So, you want the economy at a standstill for 18 months? Seriously? You are the one that doesn't know. There are many people that catch the flu each year that never go see the doctor. I am one of them. I rarely go to a doctor and ride the flu out. Why? because I want to build immunity from that strain. The same thing applies to this virus. I grant your premise that many people have it or had and never went to the doctor. What's your point there? That those people are walking time bombs?

There aren't people dying in the streets or at home and I have heard NO reports of hospitals being over run with patients on their last legs with Corona Virus. Far as I know, everyone with major symptoms gets tested. Do you have some evidence that they are turned away at the emergency room? Can't be true because it would be a major scandal.
 
Paradoxical said:
So, you want the economy at a standstill for 18 months? Seriously? You are the one that doesn't know. There are many people that catch the flu each year that never go see the doctor. I am one of them. I rarely go to a doctor and ride the flu out. Why? because I want to build immunity from that strain. The same thing applies to this virus. I grant your premise that many people have it or had and never went to the doctor. What's your point there? That those people are walking time bombs?

There aren't people dying in the streets or at home and I have heard NO reports of hospitals being over run with patients on their last legs with Corona Virus. Far as I know, everyone with major symptoms gets tested. Do you have some evidence that they are turned away at the emergency room? Can't be true because it would be a major scandal.
Click to expand...

It's like playing whack a mole with you. :roll:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom