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Elderly Will Be Denied Intensive Care as Coronavirus Overwhelms Italy's National Health System, Expe

ER, I meant to type some in every healthcare system can't afford healthcare....:roll:

I thought that's what you meant. I was going to reply to the other post, as if, but I'll just reply to his one.

In England it is not a matter of being able to afford it. Everybody gets it. And, yes, it was a pain in the ass:

- I lived there for a year (2018~2019). Before going, I shifted my family's domestic regional Tricare (government socialism) to international so we would be covered for anything. However, I discovered that it was easier just to use their system. To use my insurance I would have had to find specific doctors that deal with private insurance. The only advantage was a quicker appointment with a doctor. The medicines cost the same or cost nothing as those who used their public system.

Which made me think about our system, where I have had to wait over a month to see my doctor for a wrecked out ankle just a year prior; and I have consistently had to pay co-pays for appointments and medicine. Thus, it can be a pain in the ass in America too, where we stubbornly refuse to socialize medicine.

I can't see where some Americans use "longer lines" as their excuse to deny health care to their fellow Americans. There are sometimes lines there and there are sometimes lines here. The "can't afford it" nonsense is a lie, especially when we consider that we allow corporations to get away with paying zero taxes on hundreds of billions of dollars; and considering how we waste money on bloated Defense contracts that we don't need. Socialized medicine in America merely comes down to an ideology that has many Americans absolutely petrified of the Soviet Union. We deny ourselves our potential to be far greater than we are because we are thoroughly petrified of simple words (in which plenty prove even on this site not to really even understand).

And make no mistake: this is because capitalists, corporations, banks, and their hooker politicians have manipulated the American population into this feeling. In the 1920s, the Roaring Twenties was the answer to the Bolshevik Revolution, in which we led the world to Great Depression. Despite the emergence of the Nazi and World War II, the Red Scare occupied capitalist minds throughout until McCarthyism was used to promote unfettered capitalism against communist enslavement. Reagan's "evil empire" description of the Soviet Union was tied to communism and socialism. And today, largely conservatives, cling to these terms as their excuse to be obtuse about just about everything. "The left" is constantly the boogeyman trying to obliterate their liberty. In the meantime, those very capitalist that engineered this feeling have consistently turned to government for hand-outs and tax subsidies in what is supposed to be a "free market," thus proving how they use socialism and even fascism to their financial advantage. When Clinton assisted them in dismantling Glass-Steagall, which was created to protect capitalism from itself, they went on to bring the world the Great Recession before going to government, hat in hand, to beg for government assistance. They got it. <---socialism.
 
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They all look bad because the White House consistently played this down against those who were obviously right all along. His Wednesday speech was a disaster that made a bad situation even worse, thus Friday's speech was absolutely about personal re-election damage control and nothing else. We can say this because, despite issuing the emergency order, he went on to declare that he would not take a test while his idiot son-in-law declared that this is not so much a health reality.

But now that Trump is playing the leader in his USA hat (not a MAGA hat) he is trying to present a persona that he is personally all over this for America because "Obama's" system had failed. The man has based his entire presidency on an anti-Obama agenda and clinging to false credit for the economic trend he inherited. From this, his cult has created a symbiotic relationship where these twin things help them all ignore everything else, thus reality.

- Trump stupidly gutted the entire global-health-security unit of the National Security Council, along with eliminating the US government's $30m Complex Crises Fund. What was once a celebration for being anti-Obama has turned into something that he pretends not to know anything about. The system was set up to immediately launch into react mode, before Trump sleazed into the White House.

- There is no way that he wasn't a part of the CDC rejecting the World Health Organization's approved kits back in January as the rest of the world was taking them. One has to believe that he is completely oblivious of his White House, which is contrary to his own description of himself, or he was involved. From here one might speculate on things such as his anti-internationalism, his rejection of international organizations, and his intense focus to please corporation, for which he praised one during his emergency declaration last Friday as its stock went through the roof.

- After accusing Democrats and the world's media, for a couple months, of just "trying to hurt him" for their exaggeration of this virus, while he wore a "vote-for-me" hat to a crisis center, he now declares a state of emergency in a USA hat in order to imply that he has been with us all along and that he is a true commander-in-chief...while playing his blame-Obama game in order to deny himself his failed responsibilities.


* And what did we see with this "emergency?" Prior to him acknowledging (without actually acknowledging) that he was wrong, it was Democrats in Congress and Republicans in heavily-affected states that had been urging Trump to issue the order. It was only after he presented public diarrhea in his Wednesday speech that saw the Stock Market sink even deeper, thus signaling that his concern was not the American people, but Stocks, thus his re-election. We discovered that it was Pelosi & Co. that had reached a deal with Trump on a package to assist people affected by the outbreak, which included two weeks of paid sick leave, up to three months of paid family and medical leave, free virus testing for those without insurance, and food aid. That is a **** ton of socialism.

Prior to this, conservatives raged and raged about "socialism" and how government health programs in Europe is why they are having difficulty. Considering that they have long had kits and have been addressing this since January, this is an ignorant assessment. But most shocking is how Trump has embraced socialism as a remedy, thus copying European systems; and his constituency are completely ignoring it. Once again, we see their blind devotion to Trump forcing them to contradict who they think they are as they scramble about to re-define themselves to accommodate his latest behavior.

And the truly sad thing, in regards to re-election dreams, is that Trump really flushed an obviously golden opportunity here. Had he come out in January in his USA hat and spoke to the world about how we have to work together to aggressively attack this new unknown virus, he would have injected global confidence in America, injected confidence in the global Markets, and calmed people who were looking for honesty and answers. But Trump allowed his ego to once again lead the way and he blundered once again. Now he is trying to do what he should have done three months ago and his faithful cult is pretending that history began on Friday when he signed the emergency order.

Trump was just trying to curb the herd mentality. You can't blame him. Look at how the stampede has destroyed the US?
 
Sooooo... you are so far down the socialist rabbit hole that having too few ICU beds in time of crisis is preferable to having enough because... why?

Referring to the current crisis, altruism over profit. With real national leadership we would have been much better prepared.

Unfortunately, we have President who views all Americans as consumers - not as fellow citizens. If there is no real money in preparation why do it, right? That was/is the attitude and in this time of crisis it is killing people. That is disaster or vulture capitalism.

Nothing is perfect except apparently Trump's phone calls. It may be this time, this crisis will not work as well for the disaster capitalists. Yes, of course, some will profit hugely from the terrible misfortune of others but the virus is an equal opportunity killer. It won't be like making big bucks from war profits where the common man fights, bleeds and dies while the fortunate sons and daughters of profiteers stay home out of harm's way. COVID-19 does not appear to discriminate.

What you do for others you do for yourself.
 
Not Trump's ego. Trump was trying to pacify the herd mentality. Trump lost.

I think this lets him off the hook. No matter what, our economy is tied to the global economy that we purposefully created in 1943. And we have historical examples of a single Market affecting other Markets in the world since. Thus, as Markets in Asia and Europe began reacting to consumer panic, our own reacted too. Clearly, Trump's insistence that this was nothing for two months was about trying to force the Stock Market to shrug.

But Trump is supposed to be a businessman. He prides himself on ignoring his bankruptcy history and promoting himself as God's gift to economy and deal making. Of course, he needs to pretend that he didn't inherit this economy and that his presidency is littered with busted deals in which no replacements come. But as a businessman, he should know how the global economy works. Clearly, he did not and clearly he still doesn't know the true power of the White House in the world. Thus far, his idea of power has been negative in nature. He has used the White House to denigrate international organizations, insult allies, create disasters in foreign policy, and increase hate in our enemies...all the while pompously parading around his perverted sense of America First. His anti-Democrat, anti-media, anti-professionalism, anti-education, anti-experience, and anti-internationalism has defined his White House power. In order to agree with the media, Democrats (and plenty of Republicans), foreign governments, and international organizations over the last two months, Trump would have had to set his ego aside. Again, a businessman should know how the Stock Market works. Callously dismissing what the entire world is seeing and reacting to was always going to be counterproductive to stocks, because investors have to weigh that reality to an American President who refuses to lift a finger.

In terms of a herd, I would submit that the herd spent two months defending Trump's callousness despite their environment, and have now switched over to declaring Trump a great leader because he finally gave in and issued an emergency order, thereby contradicting his last two month's worth of bad leadership. Of course, I would call them more of an irrational mob that was herded into a cult-like flock of lemmings that can't think for itself...but I digress.
 
I think this lets him off the hook. No matter what, our economy is tied to the global economy that we purposefully created in 1943. And we have historical examples of a single Market affecting other Markets in the world since. Thus, as Markets in Asia and Europe began reacting to consumer panic, our own reacted too. Clearly, Trump's insistence that this was nothing for two months was about trying to force the Stock Market to shrug.

But Trump is supposed to be a businessman. He prides himself on ignoring his bankruptcy history and promoting himself as God's gift to economy and deal making. Of course, he needs to pretend that he didn't inherit this economy and that his presidency is littered with busted deals in which no replacements come. But as a businessman, he should know how the global economy works. Clearly, he did not and clearly he still doesn't know the true power of the White House in the world. Thus far, his idea of power has been negative in nature. He has used the White House to denigrate international organizations, insult allies, create disasters in foreign policy, and increase hate in our enemies...all the while pompously parading around his perverted sense of America First. His anti-Democrat, anti-media, anti-professionalism, anti-education, anti-experience, and anti-internationalism has defined his White House power. In order to agree with the media, Democrats (and plenty of Republicans), foreign governments, and international organizations over the last two months, Trump would have had to set his ego aside. Again, a businessman should know how the Stock Market works. Callously dismissing what the entire world is seeing and reacting to was always going to be counterproductive to stocks, because investors have to weigh that reality to an American President who refuses to lift a finger.

In terms of a herd, I would submit that the herd spent two months defending Trump's callousness despite their environment, and have now switched over to declaring Trump a great leader because he finally gave in and issued an emergency order, thereby contradicting his last two month's worth of bad leadership. Of course, I would call them more of an irrational mob that was herded into a cult-like flock of lemmings that can't think for itself...but I digress.
Why do you think Trump shouldn't be left off the hook? Will you ever leave Trump off the hook?
 
Trump was just trying to curb the herd mentality. You can't blame him. Look at how the stampede has destroyed the US?

Absolutely not. The evidence is clear, he was trying to "herd" Wall Street, which naturally reacts to global Markets. And this is what confuses me. Trump's tact was always going to be counterproductive because we live in a globalized world where economies are connected and people have the Internet. The entire world was reacting to the entire world while the American President pretended that America exists on another planet. The message was clear: we are going to do nothing.

Investors reacted to what they plainly saw in the world; and people reacted to survivalist behaviors because they too need to get some ingredients for tonight's recipe. But upon seeing people load their buggies with all the store's supplies as if the zombie apocalypse is nigh, the majority of people just needed to ensure that they could at least wipe their own ass tomorrow. Personally, I already had a month's supply simply because I routinely purchased it before I ran out from the last purchase. But other people, needing to routinely replenish their supply found assholes filling their buggies with six months worth. Considering that the message from the American President was to do ignore the world's health officials and the media's reporting on what is happening around the world, the idea that the American government was going to go ahead and sit this out created more panic.

One can and should blame the idiot in the White House for basing his re-election dreams on the Stock market alone. You don't find it odd that Trump's overnight flip from complacency to emergency (one extreme to the other) is somehow being argued as not having an affect? The very fact that his issued order of an emergency has calmed matters should be enough to encourage that his two-month complacency also affected plenty.
 
Why do you think Trump shouldn't be left off the hook? Will you ever leave Trump off the hook?

Thus far, Trump has earned his three years worth of criticism and Trump is too eager to excuse responsibility for himself, while blaming others (especially that tired Obama faithful for his constituents), to be allowed off of his own hook.

The closest I came to defending Trump was when he reformed the messy NAFTA situation. Already by the late 1990s, NAFTA was showing its problems to be solved. By rushing cheaper produce south of the border, American farmers put many Mexican farms out of business, thus producing increasing waves of illegal immigration. NAFTA was something that was in great need of reform and I thought Trump recognized this after Bush II and Obama ignored it, especially considering his anti-immigration exploitation for his voters. I was surprised that Trump's faithful wasn't arguing this in defense of Trump's efforts, but then again, they have also proven to have no idea how to defend the idiot and no real understanding of the world they populate.

But what did Trump wind up doing? True to form, he catered to corporation alone. He increased exportation of American-made cars to the south, which will create the same result as agriculture did. Mexican factories will fold, which will produce an increase in illegal immigration. The irony is that in the meantime he has convinced his cult that his focus on "the wall" is addressing this problem.

So, no...I'm still waiting to let Trump off the hook. He has been a disaster to our economic system, our strength in readiness by making us ever-more vulnerable to Chinese influence because of his exponential debt creation, a disaster for our political system by turning the GOP Congress into his employee, a true threat to American democracy because of his constant anti-media agenda and his attacks on the judiciary and his quest to enlist foreign governments to interfere on his personal behalf, a disaster in foreign policy (pick a region and I'll detail), and the epitome of an all around poor leader. In the end, I can educationally declare that Trump may very well be our nation's worst President. I would not have declared this two years ago. Even a year ago, I would declare him as just an even more idiot in a line of other presidential idiots. But now? Good...God. The man is actually pushing a narrative that the last two months simply don't exist unless it is seen through the fantasy that he is pushing (with right-wing media assistance), earnestly proving that he is dishonorable and is completely absent of integrity. How do you let a man like that off any hook?
 
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Not Trump's ego. Trump was trying to pacify the herd mentality. Trump lost.

When you realize that the current 1,016 deaths in Italy with a population of 60 million would be the equivalent of 5,400 deaths in the United States instead of the 41 deaths we have had so far, you can see what milder, slower and less aggressive responses might have cost in lives. Then we would have needed to move to truly draconian measures of isolation and shutdowns.

Newt Gingrich: I Am in Italy Amid the Coronavirus Crisis. America Must Act Now—And Act Big | Opinion

Trump was called a racist for halting flights from China... and the Democrats lying about Trump’s handling of Corona*** and Bernie wanted to keep the borders open.

Trump has gutted the bureaucracy regarding The Wuhan Virus... so **** could get done, but MSgt seems to be blind to the realities.

*** AP FACT CHECK: Democrats distort coronavirus readiness
 
I can't get past the idea you think healthcare is a right and you also think you're right libertarian. Help me out.

Stop cherry-picking and try reading my actual posts: Healthcare is, indeed, a right, but no one has the right to make others pay for it.

I can't tell if a person online is a real American, an intelligent American, a foreigner or just an idiot, so I treat everyone the same until given a reason not to do so.

Per our Founding Fathers, we all have every right, unalienable rights including the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. It's the authoritarian assholes who keep saying things like "You don't have that right" and "Where in the Constitution do you have that right?".

You have a right to medical care but you don't have a right to make someone give it to you.

You have a right to buy things but you don't have a right to make someone sell it to you.

You have a right to drive a car but you don't have a right to drive over people or on private property.

Is any of this making sense to you?
 
Referring to the current crisis, altruism over profit. With real national leadership we would have been much better prepared.

Well, no. There is arguably a single country that had a faster response in the fashion that you demand, and the jury is still out on whether that response will actually yield better outcomes.

It will be interesting to see how you all spin this when it fails to be the disaster you need it to be.
 
Well, no. There is arguably a single country that had a faster response in the fashion that you demand, and the jury is still out on whether that response will actually yield better outcomes.

It will be interesting to see how you all spin this when it fails to be the disaster you need it to be.

Let's hope it fails to be a disaster (ignoring your cheap shot).

You go ahead on, bud, and do what you are going to do.
 
Let's hope it fails to be a disaster (ignoring your cheap shot).

You go ahead on, bud, and do what you are going to do.

Panic doesn't do you, or anyone else, any good. It creates runs on stores of basic supplies, impedes those supplies getting to where they are actually needed, and throws a lot of people into sunk cost fallacies where they can't accept they were fear mongering and playing politics off of that fear... or that their politics were driving their panic.
 
Stop cherry-picking and try reading my actual posts: Healthcare is, indeed, a right, but no one has the right to make others pay for it.

I can't tell if a person online is a real American, an intelligent American, a foreigner or just an idiot, so I treat everyone the same until given a reason not to do so.

Per our Founding Fathers, we all have every right, unalienable rights including the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. It's the authoritarian assholes who keep saying things like "You don't have that right" and "Where in the Constitution do you have that right?".

You have a right to medical care but you don't have a right to make someone give it to you.

You have a right to buy things but you don't have a right to make someone sell it to you.

You have a right to drive a car but you don't have a right to drive over people or on private property.

Is any of this making sense to you?

You know the difference between right and privilige?
 
You know the difference between right and privilige?

Yes. Do you know the meaning of this sentence?: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
 
Yes. Do you know the meaning of this sentence?: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Anyone has the right to fulfillment of happiness but someone doesn't have the right to make themselves happy?
 
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Anyone has the right to fulfillment of happiness but someone doesn't have the right to make themselves happy?

You're getting closer; everyone has the right to fulfillment of happiness and, yes, they have the right to make themselves happy but they don't have a right to make others pay for it or to deprive others of their rights to do it. An example would be gun bans and gun confiscations. Sure, it makes the Democrat anti-gun mob happy but it not only makes the pro-Second Amendment citizens unhappy but deprives them of an essential right.
 
Anyone has the right to fulfillment of happiness but someone doesn't have the right to make themselves happy?

As the adage goes, "your rights ends at my nose." You have the right to do whatever you please, providing it harms (physically, financially, or any other means) no one else. Consider also that every gun control measure imposed is chipping away at our unalienable right to liberty.
 
Italy has more hospital beds per capita than we do.

It isn't about the number of hospital beds. It is about the eagerness of the left to dispose of the elderly or any other non-productive member of society. Give them any excuse, and they will gladly kill off "undesirables" to use the exact word FDR used when he instituted his forcible sterilization program with his Tennessee Valley Authority project. It was going to be his model for rural electrification throughout the US. Thankfully WW II delayed the project and the fascist died before he could implement it and slaughter tens of thousands of Americans. It is a very common trait among leftists. Mussolini and Hitler both had that same characteristic.
 
It isn't about the number of hospital beds. It is about the eagerness of the left to dispose of the elderly or any other non-productive member of society. Give them any excuse, and they will gladly kill off "undesirables" to use the exact word FDR used when he instituted his forcible sterilization program with his Tennessee Valley Authority project. It was going to be his model for rural electrification throughout the US. Thankfully WW II delayed the project and the fascist died before he could implement it and slaughter tens of thousands of Americans. It is a very common trait among leftists. Mussolini and Hitler both had that same characteristic.

Wrong forum... I think you meant to post this here: https://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/
 
Wrong forum... I think you meant to post this here: https://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/

It clearly is the correct forum, as Italy demonstrates the exact same measures Mussolini took when he controlled fascist Italy. Screw the elderly and the poor, currently the Italian motto and if you had your way it would no doubt be the motto for the US as well. Leftists are all the same.
 
It clearly is the correct forum, as Italy demonstrates the exact same measures Mussolini took when he controlled fascist Italy. Screw the elderly and the poor, currently the Italian motto and if you had your way it would no doubt be the motto for the US as well. Leftists are all the same.

You don't accept responsibility for denying the seriousness of the situation and resisting the efforts necessary to reduce the spread of the virus?
 
You're getting closer; everyone has the right to fulfillment of happiness and, yes, they have the right to make themselves happy but they don't have a right to make others pay for it or to deprive others of their rights to do it. An example would be gun bans and gun confiscations. Sure, it makes the Democrat anti-gun mob happy but it not only makes the pro-Second Amendment citizens unhappy but deprives them of an essential right.

Side note, kinda: Are you against capital punishment?
 
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