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Reconciliation Act H.R.4872 Brings Microchipping to America

Getting the data is easy... putting it to use in a fraudulent manner is somewhat more complicated.
So then what's the problem?

Though, just pullng someone's card number, expiry date and access code would be enough to spend it in ways...
So why isnt it a widespread problem?

Your unsourced opinion... how big do you expect the unsourced chips to be??? The injectable varieties of these chips are the size of an unsourced grain of rice... you asked where it was located... so I showed you. if you happen to buy a pack of gillette razors you'll know how to find it.
You cant even tell me if that was a chip, a piece of packaging, or put in there for the photo. I cant even see what it is. Why post a crappy picture that does nothing to address the concerns of the viewer when a simple Google search would have turned up news stories from at least half-way reputable sources that would have CONFIRMED what you claimed?

And knowing this, who cares? What does having an RFID chip in the products you buy harm you?

You'll have to explain it because you didn't think they were there... I showed you were to find it, now you're unhappy cause it's so small... the chips are small, that's where you'll find it, if you get a pack peel it out, you'll probably have a 'holy shyt' moment cause you'll realize it's not made up.... it's hard to debunk something when you can touch it in your own hands, right?
Im unhappy because you show me a crappy photo then expect me to have an OHMYGAWD moment for some reason I cant entirely discern.

Especially when a frickin' Google search turns up WHY the packages are chipped and it has nothing sinister attached to it.

Case Study: Gillette shaves costs with RFID - How-to - Techworld.com
Gillette Razors Get New Edge: RFID Tags -- Wireless -- InformationWeek

This is called technology, it advances. Why is this a problem?

It just seems to cause cancer in the animals they test it in... perfectly safe. Best thing since breakfast.
You just got done admitting there wasnt a link YET

I'm not... I'm trying to explain the realities of the situation within the confines of the MSM (because everybody knows if it's not on the evening news it doesn't exist). We're not in the 80's anymore... when you can say 'it'll never happen'... when it's already happening.
Except it's not happening quite the way you seem to want it to.

Ok... eat your words again (although you'll move the goal posts or deny it somehow, you're skills at denialism are quite strong)

BBC NEWS | Technology | Barcelona clubbers get chipped - RFID implant for VIP access
New NXP RFID Chips Bring Multiple Functions to Item-Level Tagging - RFID Journal - RFID Item level tagging
RFIDNews | Mexican firm offers RFID implants for kidnapping prevention - implanted in children for 'kidnapping prevention'
RFIDNews | RFID implants to go retail - This one seems relevant to the section of the bill in the OP (for seniors to not have to carry their information... like an injected medicalert bracelet)
I have never once decried the use of RFID tags. My point is (and has been) that there is no serious push by anybody with the pull to accomplish it to make RFID tags mandatory in the citizenry.

What you are doing is taking advancing technology and making a scare case out of it.

It's to the point where the discussion is so predictable it makes me laugh out loud... in reality, many don't want to know the truth about a subject and just ask so that they can make the next point... you'll notice that everywhere except the one area you've asked for sources, I've provided and you've come up with pretty weak excuses as to why it doesn't count.
If you dont back up what you claim with something concrete and verifiable, people wont take what you say seriously. It's NOT that difficult to do.
 
Damn, double post, and I cant clear the first one.
 
So then what's the problem?

So why isnt it a widespread problem?

Because most people aren't blatant criminals like that...

You cant even tell me if that was a chip, a piece of packaging, or put in there for the photo. I cant even see what it is. Why post a crappy picture that does nothing to address the concerns of the viewer when a simple Google search would have turned up news stories from at least half-way reputable sources that would have CONFIRMED what you claimed?

You know how you verify this... which was easy for me, I happen to use gillette razors, the nice thing about looking for these chips is that you can find them if you really look... That you still deny that this is done, is kinda laughable.

And knowing this, who cares? What does having an RFID chip in the products you buy harm you?

You're changing the subject... you denied it's existance, and now you're like 'oh, so what'.

Anyway, it's not a big issue on it's own, but if you get a system where :
Recycling Plan Scaled Back | New Haven Independent

Im unhappy because you show me a crappy photo then expect me to have an OHMYGAWD moment for some reason I cant entirely discern.

You asked where it was I showed you where to look... it's bad enough how much needs spoon feeding, I can't swallow for you too.

Especially when a frickin' Google search turns up WHY the packages are chipped and it has nothing sinister attached to it.

Case Study: Gillette shaves costs with RFID - How-to - Techworld.com
Gillette Razors Get New Edge: RFID Tags -- Wireless -- InformationWeek

Again, we were debating it's existance, which you're clearly forced to accept... now you move the goal posts 'how is that bad'...

This is called technology, it advances. Why is this a problem?

You're thinking much too small of application for this...

You just got done admitting there wasnt a link YET

You CLEARLY didn't read the links I DO provide... so why do you insist so strongly that I provide links...when so quickly you demonstrate to make points without even reading them.

The link to causing cancer in humans has not been made, but it does have a link to cancer in the animals tested... this is another example of you shifting the goal posts...

Except it's not happening quite the way you seem to want it to.

If we're in year 8 of a 50 year plan to have the world microchipped, I'd say we're coming along... that is not something that I WANT however... I mean, how dehumanizing to be tracked through an implanted chip.

I have never once decried the use of RFID tags. My point is (and has been) that there is no serious push by anybody with the pull to accomplish it to make RFID tags mandatory in the citizenry.

Oh no?? Then why is this technology propagating throughout the world in such ways???

You get people to get a chip for VIP bar access, and suddenly the chip becomes 'cool' to have... once it's cool, then it becomes an easy sell.
Then once the majority of people have implanted chips then life becomes more and more difficult for those without... untill it becomes just a way of life and everyone has one. That's how you would cook that frog.... even if it takes 20-30 years for the marketing to go through the motions.

What you are doing is taking advancing technology and making a scare case out of it.

No, technology is only a tool... looking at the dangers of different technologies is like knowing the safety switch on a gun.

If you dont back up what you claim with something concrete and verifiable, people wont take what you say seriously. It's NOT that difficult to do.

You're not getting it... People don't take the TOPIC seriously, so it doesn't matter if you even have the proof in front of your face because you don't accept the TOPIC TO START. That's why I'm holding out on the sources, I'll only source what you actually want to know... not so interested in scouring the web if you're 'just asking'.
 
Because most people aren't blatant criminals like that...
People have trampled each other to death over Christmas toys. Do you seriously believe that basically no one would do this if they could steal credit card information for $8?

You know how you verify this... which was easy for me, I happen to use gillette razors, the nice thing about looking for these chips is that you can find them if you really look... That you still deny that this is done, is kinda laughable.
I dont plan to go out and spend money on something I dont buy (especially because I'm already broke) just to prove something that can be verified via Google search.

You're changing the subject... you denied it's existance, and now you're like 'oh, so what'.
No, I changed my mind. I didnt believe it, I searched it, found verification, and I accept that Gillete DID chip some of it's product packaging.

However all information on it I've found thus far was from 2003~ and there's nothing to indicate that this process is ongoing. Especially considering the systems the chips were designed to work with are not in place (to my knowledge). Also, what you may be looking at is an anti-theft RFID tag
rfid.jpg

How RFID tags work - What is RFID and what are its benefits? Explain that Stuff!

Anti-theft RFID tags have been in use for many years.

Anyway, it's not a big issue on it's own, but if you get a system where :
Recycling Plan Scaled Back | New Haven Independent
Yes, rewarding people for recycling, such a terrifying future we face.

You're thinking much too small of application for this...
Oh do tell.

You CLEARLY didn't read the links I DO provide... so why do you insist so strongly that I provide links...when so quickly you demonstrate to make points without even reading them.

The link to causing cancer in humans has not been made, but it does have a link to cancer in the animals tested...
I did read the links, and I read your admission that there is no established link to cancer in humans and I agree that further testing needs to be done. However I think getting one's undies in a knot about something that has yet to be established is not productive.

If we're in year 8 of a 50 year plan to have the world microchipped, I'd say we're coming along... that is not something that I WANT however... I mean, how dehumanizing to be tracked through an implanted chip.
You're already being tracked, princess. Welcome to the modern world.

You get people to get a chip for VIP bar access, and suddenly the chip becomes 'cool' to have... once it's cool, then it becomes an easy sell.
Then once the majority of people have implanted chips then life becomes more and more difficult for those without... untill it becomes just a way of life and everyone has one. That's how you would cook that frog.... even if it takes 20-30 years for the marketing to go through the motions.
Again, unless you have some proof beyond some billionaire jetting his fantasy out onto the face of the nearest journalist, all you're doing is speculating.

No, technology is only a tool... looking at the dangers of different technologies is like knowing the safety switch on a gun.
Except the only "danger" from this technology is the one you are inventing.

You're not getting it... People don't take the TOPIC seriously, so it doesn't matter if you even have the proof in front of your face because you don't accept the TOPIC TO START. That's why I'm holding out on the sources, I'll only source what you actually want to know... not so interested in scouring the web if you're 'just asking'.
No we dont take YOU seriously
 
People have trampled each other to death over Christmas toys. Do you seriously believe that basically no one would do this if they could steal credit card information for $8?

What are you going to do with the credit card info ??
-Order something on the internet with a fraudulant name delivered to your house?
- Go to the store and say : "I forgot the card but I got the information"


Stealing the card numbers is only half the battle... once you have valid numbers, you ALSO NEED another machine (that is more then 8$) to clone the credit card itself... and you'd probably need ANOTHER machine to rewrite the information on an RFID. (consider a CD-reader is cheap, a CD-writer not so much same story)

I dont plan to go out and spend money on something I dont buy (especially because I'm already broke) just to prove something that can be verified via Google search.

So you verified it on your own *applause*... doesn't it feel good to confirm information for yourself??

That's the nice thing about having a track record for accuracy... Every time someone calls me on BS I get to watch them eat their own words. (Well, 9 times out of 10, occassionally I misquote something accidentally)

No, I changed my mind. I didnt believe it, I searched it, found verification, and I accept that Gillete DID chip some of it's product packaging.

However all information on it I've found thus far was from 2003~ and there's nothing to indicate that this process is ongoing. Especially considering the systems the chips were designed to work with are not in place (to my knowledge). Also, what you may be looking at is an anti-theft RFID tag
rfid.jpg

How RFID tags work - What is RFID and what are its benefits? Explain that Stuff!

Anti-theft RFID tags have been in use for many years.

But they stopped it cause you had an opinion.

Yes, rewarding people for recycling, such a terrifying future we face.

If you're going to 'reward people' for recycling, you're also going to be PUNISHING those the fail to do so properly...You wouldn't need a situation like in that Audi superbowl commercial, of 'green police' looking through your trash, a quick scan of the bin will tell them that you threw a plastic bottle in the paper bin.

Oh do tell.

Wow... what a loaded question... If your every action is tracked, traced to identify you, and put into a database for future reference.... well, the possibilities are endless in both malevolant and benevolant uses....and it would really take a novel to get into all the intricacies of such a system.

I did read the links, and I read your admission that there is no established link to cancer in humans and I agree that further testing needs to be done. However I think getting one's undies in a knot about something that has yet to be established is not productive.

I get my panties in a knot because I'm being REAL and HONEST, and then even then people twist and turn my words untill I'm saying something that I didn't say. That bugs me... especially when the links I sent were all talking about how the animals tested with RFID's were getting cancer... though the testing hasn't been done on humans.

You're already being tracked, princess. Welcome to the modern world.

*applause* you're starting to catch on... why were you trying so hard to deny this happens??

Is it something intentional you guys do?? You go into a discussion where you KNOW you're giong to be wrong, just so at the end of it you say 'so what'?

Again, unless you have some proof beyond some billionaire jetting his fantasy out onto the face of the nearest journalist, all you're doing is speculating.

No, it's not in an MSM paper. The journalists that go to these meetings are forbidden from printing information on the topics discussed. So, from your perspective it doesn't exist... and I'm still not convinced that you actually want to know... actually I'm quite certain that you are just asking.

Except the only "danger" from this technology is the one you are inventing.

Think about this : Hitler used IBM's tracking system to organize the holocaust, that saw 60million jews slaughtered... Now, look at todays technology compared to that in the 40's, and think about what the death toll would be if we fell to another tyrant??

No we dont take YOU seriously

That's fine... it's good to see you at least started catching on to the veiled insults.

I don't really care if people take me seriously... I've got a track record for the things I say being accurate to the 80-90% range. In this one, you've demanded a variety of sources claimed I was lying etc... and you think I"m still lying because you fell into the 'oh, I was wrong... so what?'.

You must subconsciously KNOW the answer to 'so what'? Or else you wouldn't have fought so hard trying to prove that the concept is false... YOU KNOW in your heart of hearts what is wrong with this scenario growng. You can deny it, twist words, shift goalposts, and whatever other form of delusion let's you carry on thinking that 'everything is ok'. On some level I know you grasp the dangers on some level, even if you won't concsiously admit to it.
 
What are you going to do with the credit card info ??
-Order something on the internet with a fraudulant name delivered to your house?
- Go to the store and say : "I forgot the card but I got the information"
Again, if it's so easy and so profitable, then why the **** arent thousands of people doing it?

Stealing the card numbers is only half the battle... once you have valid numbers, you ALSO NEED another machine (that is more then 8$) to clone the credit card itself... and you'd probably need ANOTHER machine to rewrite the information on an RFID. (consider a CD-reader is cheap, a CD-writer not so much same story)
So it's prohibitively expensive?

So you verified it on your own *applause*... doesn't it feel good to confirm information for yourself??
Im curious why I had to do your homework for you instead of you just putting the stuff up there in the first place.

That's the nice thing about having a track record for accuracy... Every time someone calls me on BS I get to watch them eat their own words. (Well, 9 times out of 10, occassionally I misquote something accidentally)
Accuracy? You posted one crappy picture with no sources as well as paranoid assessments of what the chip actually did that turned out to be wrong. You scoffed at posting sources easily searchable because they show that you didnt understand why the packaging was chipped.

But they stopped it cause you had an opinion.
???

If you're going to 'reward people' for recycling, you're also going to be PUNISHING those the fail to do so properly
I see nothing in the plan for anything of the sort. Yet again, making stuff up and getting outraged about what you make up.

Wow... what a loaded question... If your every action is tracked, traced to identify you, and put into a database for future reference.... well, the possibilities are endless in both malevolant and benevolant uses....and it would really take a novel to get into all the intricacies of such a system.
That is the case already, I dont see any black helicopters zipping around my house and considering half the material I write, they probably should be.

I get my panties in a knot because I'm being REAL
Real, yo? Word.

and HONEST
No, no you really arent.

and then even then people twist and turn my words untill I'm saying something that I didn't say. That bugs me... especially when the links I sent were all talking about how the animals tested with RFID's were getting cancer... though the testing hasn't been done on humans.
And I said before, when you can come up with a causal link in humans, talk to me. Until then, I do support further research.

*applause* you're starting to catch on... why were you trying so hard to deny this happens??
Where exactly was I doing this?

No, it's not in an MSM paper. The journalists that go to these meetings are forbidden from printing information on the topics discussed. So, from your perspective it doesn't exist... and I'm still not convinced that you actually want to know... actually I'm quite certain that you are just asking.
If they're forbidden from printing information on the topics discussed, then why do we have it at all?

Think about this : Hitler used IBM's tracking system to organize the holocaust, that saw 60million jews slaughtered... Now, look at todays technology compared to that in the 40's, and think about what the death toll would be if we fell to another tyrant??
ZOMG HITLER!!!! I'd argue that Nazi GUNS killed more people than IBM's punch cards, why are you not advocating for a ban on guns?

I don't really care if people take me seriously
Obviously ya do otherwise you wouldnt keep coming back.

I've got a track record for the things I say being accurate to the 80-90% range. In this one, you've demanded a variety of sources claimed I was lying etc... and you think I"m still lying because you fell into the 'oh, I was wrong... so what?'.
I admitted I was mistaken about something, it's the new thing.

You must subconsciously KNOW the answer to 'so what'? Or else you wouldn't have fought so hard trying to prove that the concept is false... YOU KNOW in your heart of hearts what is wrong with this scenario growng. You can deny it, twist words, shift goalposts, and whatever other form of delusion let's you carry on thinking that 'everything is ok'. On some level I know you grasp the dangers on some level, even if you won't concsiously admit to it.
"So what" means exactly what it says, it means you said something that had no real point behind it. It's like walking into a room and saying "I am human"....ok, so what? Your statement didnt make a point, didnt raise a topic, didnt ask a question, so I ask "so what?"
 
Microchipping should start with the terminally paranoid.
 
Again, if it's so easy and so profitable, then why the **** arent thousands of people doing it?

So it's prohibitively expensive?

Well... it's typical of criminals to commit crimes where they are not likely to be caught. When you see credit card fraud operations, it's usually several people in on the crime... so, yes, it's not something just anyone could do.... but if one was so inclined to get the materials needed...

Im curious why I had to do your homework for you instead of you just putting the stuff up there in the first place.

Because if you do it yourself, you can't whine about the sources I use... It's not like the current innovations in RFID technology are 'top secret' or anything.

Accuracy? You posted one crappy picture with no sources as well as paranoid assessments of what the chip actually did that turned out to be wrong. You scoffed at posting sources easily searchable because they show that you didnt understand why the packaging was chipped.

Look back, and you'll see that it's your assessment that I was being paranoid. No, I know why it's chipped... the original statement was that there's even RFID's in some packaging, you said it wasn't real... I got a picture so you could find it for yourself... if you look closely at many products there's RFID information.

Even at the grocery store, your grocery stores 'club card' is linked to some pretty huge databases of information detailing all of your purchase habits... is that 'nefarious' not on it's own... but not many people are aware that this level of tracking is ALREADY in place.


In other words, it's your opinion that they've stopped diong this... if anything this technology is expanding.

I see nothing in the plan for anything of the sort. Yet again, making stuff up and getting outraged about what you make up.

That's fine... It's not made up though.

That is the case already, I dont see any black helicopters zipping around my house and considering half the material I write, they probably should be.

Probably not... that determination would be made through psychological algorithms, generated through all the various databases in which you're tracked (myself included), and all these factors would determine if you're flagged if you will be made aware of that flag or just observed more closely to determine how much of a 'threat' you might represent.

The main reason that this system isn't fully in place already is because of a lack of 'manpower' running these mechanisms...

No, no you really arent.

Holding back on sources is not dishonest... Unless you care to show a specific example of me being DISHONEST... not 'mistaken' cause I do make mistakes, dishonest.

And I said before, when you can come up with a causal link in humans, talk to me. Until then, I do support further research.

Well... if it's causing cancer in animals, there's a fair chance it's not nutritious and delicious.

Where exactly was I doing this?

Ok, I love Shadowrun as much as anyone else, but I'm gonna have to ask for proof about this, ESPECIALLY the razor packaging.

Then when I provided the picture :
That's it? Really? One tiny crappy unsourced photo of a white dot inside a piece of packaging?

Do you see anything wrong with this or do I need to explain it?

If they're forbidden from printing information on the topics discussed, then why do we have it at all?

Information DOES get leaked from these meetings, since not 100% of the individuals that attend these meetings fully ascribe to the same beliefs as the majority of that group.

ZOMG HITLER!!!! I'd argue that Nazi GUNS killed more people than IBM's punch cards, why are you not advocating for a ban on guns?

That's such a change of subject it's incredible... there was a difference between what was giong on at the front lines compared to the systemic murder of millions that was facilitated by IBM's primitive databasing system.

Obviously ya do otherwise you wouldnt keep coming back.

No, I don't really care what people think... that doesn't mean that I don't want to make my point and voice my opinions.

I admitted I was mistaken about something, it's the new thing.

Ya. but EVEN mistaken you tried to spin it that I was wrong...

"So what" means exactly what it says, it means you said something that had no real point behind it. It's like walking into a room and saying "I am human"....ok, so what? Your statement didnt make a point, didnt raise a topic, didnt ask a question, so I ask "so what?"

If you're not looking at things past the tip of your nose, then yes, the point isn't immediately self-evident.

But, I stumbled across this
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Keo2TR1Zouw&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Verichips for workers at airports[/nomedia]

Humans 'will be implanted with microchips'

http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sites/ait/IPT Info/USMC RFID Implementation Plan - 13 Feb 06.pdf
(Page 2 has the phone numbers if you'd like to verify this as accurate)

So, in all today, it already exists that :
- Some Bars use implanted chips for VIP access
- Chips used in 'alzheimers patients'
- The people that put chips in their children for 'kidnapping prevention'
- The millitary is discussing implementation of this technology
- Airport security having implantable chips being put 'on the table'
- I didn't source, but should be known Census takers are now getting GPS coordinates of your home.

So, what do you think tyrants of the past would have done if the population was chipped, and remotely tracked??

To say that the modern world is immune to tyranny is a fallcy at best... it's happened many times throughout history. Tyranical systems do eventually all collapse under their own weight, actually with how massively sedated the majority of north americans are it's probably MORE likely to happen.
 
It's difficult to buy or sell without credit cards and yet those dont seem to be mandatory.
Aren't they?

When was the last time you tried to rent a car, book a hotel, conference room, plane tickets, and such?

It's not 'mandatory' per se, but you certainly can't play the game without one.

Peace
 
Well... it's typical of criminals to commit crimes where they are not likely to be caught. When you see credit card fraud operations, it's usually several people in on the crime... so, yes, it's not something just anyone could do.... but if one was so inclined to get the materials needed...
You posted a video of some d-bag on a webcast who bought a scanner for eight bucks and ripped off the hosts' credit card info. You do not need a crew for that.

A more logical conclusion is that A. The report was 90% BS, or B. there's a critical step that they didnt show you.

Because if you do it yourself, you can't whine about the sources I use... It's not like the current innovations in RFID technology are 'top secret' or anything.
My issue is you posted a crappy picture that did nothing to prove your cause, I went and did the homework you SHOULD have done, then you put a check in the "win" column. If you want to pad some imaginary win/loss ratio, fine. Just dont clog my eyeballs bragging about it.

Even at the grocery store, your grocery stores 'club card' is linked to some pretty huge databases of information detailing all of your purchase habits... is that 'nefarious' not on it's own... but not many people are aware that this level of tracking is ALREADY in place.
Again, so what? This is common knowledge.

In other words, it's your opinion that they've stopped diong this... if anything this technology is expanding.
The reports I found said this was an experimental limited release to test the idea of "smart shelving." Now, I personally am not aware of wide-spread use of smart shelving technology and the report was from 2003 so I can only assume that it was scrapped and that the only RFID tags currently in use are for anti-theft purposes and hence worthless once they leave the store.

Probably not... that determination would be made through psychological algorithms, generated through all the various databases in which you're tracked (myself included), and all these factors would determine if you're flagged if you will be made aware of that flag or just observed more closely to determine how much of a 'threat' you might represent.
Might want to check on Agatha again, I saw Tom Cruise running down the hall.

Behavioral analysis via computer algorithm is very "CSI" and makes great TV, but in reality is pretty 'effing useless. The best computer in the world does not have the capability for random and abstract though the same way the human brain does and you cant really artificially replicate that. If this is what they're using to keep tabs on my subversive literature writing ass, it's no wonder I haven't seen any black helicopters.

The main reason that this system isn't fully in place already is because of a lack of 'manpower' running these mechanisms...
Do you have any, y'know, actual PROOF of this?

Well... if it's causing cancer in animals, there's a fair chance it's not nutritious and delicious.
Chocolate kills most pets but provides a very stimulating neurochemical jolt in humans. Cancer manifesting in SOME animal trials is not reason enough to scrap the technology but it does warrant further research.

Then when I provided the picture :
I doubted the veracity of your claim regarding the packaging and based on my own research I confirmed your story, I have never once claimed we arent already heavily tracked.

Information DOES get leaked from these meetings, since not 100% of the individuals that attend these meetings fully ascribe to the same beliefs as the majority of that group.
These people wouldnt happen to be contributors to InfoWars would they?

There's a problem with someone claiming they saw something at a secret meeting; it's ****ing impossible to check. If a claim cant be verified, it's worthless. Period.

That's such a change of subject it's incredible... there was a difference between what was giong on at the front lines compared to the systemic murder of millions that was facilitated by IBM's primitive databasing system.
Is there? Guns were a tool used by the Nazis to kill Allied soldiers and Jews alike. The same way the punch cards were used as a tool to streamline the process of killing Jews. If you're hot and bothered about information tracking technology and it's usefulness to your up-and-coming mass murders, then you should be equally outraged about guns because they both accomplish the same task.

No, I don't really care what people think... that doesn't mean that I don't want to make my point and voice my opinions.
Again if that were true, you'd sound off then leave and let whatever people said just lay.

Did you actually watch the report? The chip idea has only been proposed and doesnt look too popular with employees and doesnt look like it will be adopted.

""We do not know when or if someone will develop an implantable microchip with GPS technology, but it is not an application we are pursuing.""

Again, it's an academic talking, so what?

Ok, again, so what? Various sectors of our military are looking into RFID technology as sort of new dog tags, why is this important?

So, in all today, it already exists that :
- Some Bars use implanted chips for VIP access
- Chips used in 'alzheimers patients'
- The people that put chips in their children for 'kidnapping prevention'
- The millitary is discussing implementation of this technology
- Airport security having implantable chips being put 'on the table'
- I didn't source, but should be known Census takers are now getting GPS coordinates of your home.

So, what do you think tyrants of the past would have done if the population was chipped, and remotely tracked??
I think the question is irrelevant.

Your whole shtick seems to be hinging on insinuating that chips may enable some global dictator to take power using the chips as a means of control and surveillance. Frankly, while I agree the possibility is there for that use, guns and boots work A LOT better than chips for that purpose and these chips are not linked together by any central means and there is no current plan (or even technology available) to allow them to be linked in such a way.

You are being paranoid about something that while yes it is technically possible, it's extremely unlikely to happen.

To say that the modern world is immune to tyranny is a fallcy at best... it's happened many times throughout history. Tyranical systems do eventually all collapse under their own weight, actually with how massively sedated the majority of north americans are it's probably MORE likely to happen.
So your entire argument is "well it COULD happen!" ?

Then, why the hell are you using the internet? Credit cards? A cell phone? The postal service (public or private)? A landline phone? ALL of these are methods of tracking and keeping tabs on individuals and they're already here and already basically universal. Why are you not out in the wilderness somewhere away from all these ways the MAN holds you down?


Aren't they?

When was the last time you tried to rent a car, book a hotel, conference room, plane tickets, and such?

It's not 'mandatory' per se, but you certainly can't play the game without one.

Peace
I do any face-to-face business with cash and I seem to do just fine. I dont like using credit cards because I know I'm not responsible enough to have one.
 
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You posted a video of some d-bag on a webcast who bought a scanner for eight bucks and ripped off the hosts' credit card info. You do not need a crew for that.

A more logical conclusion is that A. The report was 90% BS, or B. there's a critical step that they didnt show you.

YES!!! If you're committing credit card fraud, having John Doe's credit card information is 95% useless unless you don't mind getting inevitably arrested. We're talking about getting the data from the card, remember they are not taking the actual card out of anyone's pockets.

You have to PUT that information ONTO a seperate CLONED card. That was NOT shown in the video, because it should be self-evident that the card number is useless to a criminal.

Getting a credit card machine with 'blank' cards... that's where the problam comes in.

My issue is you posted a crappy picture that did nothing to prove your cause, I went and did the homework you SHOULD have done, then you put a check in the "win" column. If you want to pad some imaginary win/loss ratio, fine. Just dont clog my eyeballs bragging about it.

My issue is that so many people have the tendancy to just deny facts and information on an arbitrary basis... (You're original statement was about the size of the chips)

Again, so what? This is common knowledge.

So if this whole friggin topic is commong knowledge that everyone's purchases, products, phone calls, emails, tv watching, driving habits, etc are all tracked, traced to you and databased for future reference... why are you so adamant to say that a 'new area' where this will be implemented is so far out of left field as to be called 'hemorraging paranoia'???

The reports I found said this was an experimental limited release to test the idea of "smart shelving." Now, I personally am not aware of wide-spread use of smart shelving technology and the report was from 2003 so I can only assume that it was scrapped and that the only RFID tags currently in use are for anti-theft purposes and hence worthless once they leave the store.

We weren't arguing the 'value' of these chips, I was showing you that these chips are being used... the purpose, because the start of this discussion is really beyond the scope of this thread...

Might want to check on Agatha again, I saw Tom Cruise running down the hall.

Behavioral analysis via computer algorithm is very "CSI" and makes great TV, but in reality is pretty 'effing useless. The best computer in the world does not have the capability for random and abstract though the same way the human brain does and you cant really artificially replicate that. If this is what they're using to keep tabs on my subversive literature writing ass, it's no wonder I haven't seen any black helicopters.

I was giving a brief capacity of what these computer databasing systems have the CAPACITY to track... there are NOT enough PEOPLE working with these systems to have anything of what you're suggesting... Echelon and other telecommunication data mining machines DO EXIST and for all intents and purposes is already in use... however, you're going to blow the extent to which these programs are in use as though it proves your point.

Do you have any, y'know, actual PROOF of this?
http://www.harttech.com/images/stories/downloads/hart_carnivore_3.pdf
Apparently the name of the program has changed from 'echelon' to 'carnivore'... maybe they are both in use...

Big Brother Spying on Americans' Internet Data? - ABC News

Chocolate kills most pets but provides a very stimulating neurochemical jolt in humans. Cancer manifesting in SOME animal trials is not reason enough to scrap the technology but it does warrant further research.

True... but it's not a good start either.

These people wouldnt happen to be contributors to InfoWars would they?

There's a problem with someone claiming they saw something at a secret meeting; it's ****ing impossible to check. If a claim cant be verified, it's worthless. Period.

Yes, but often it's not just statements... sometimes it's 'memos'... sometimes the people coming out with this information have a pretty incredible track record of predicting future events BASED ON these conversations... As for contributors to infowars, I'm sure it's been the case on occasion, but the book I'm thinking of is NOT in any way affiliated.

Is there? Guns were a tool used by the Nazis to kill Allied soldiers and Jews alike. The same way the punch cards were used as a tool to streamline the process of killing Jews. If you're hot and bothered about information tracking technology and it's usefulness to your up-and-coming mass murders, then you should be equally outraged about guns because they both accomplish the same task.

Ok... well, how many Swiss Jews were killed in the holocaust?? (answer 0 : Swiss jews were not disarmed like the German Jews)

The difference between mass killing on the battle fields is that if I also have a gun I at least have a fighting chance... if I'm 'fighting' a punch card machine that decides how much food I should eat and how long I should live... I'm trapped like a rat in a cage.

Did you actually watch the report? The chip idea has only been proposed and doesnt look too popular with employees and doesnt look like it will be adopted.

""We do not know when or if someone will develop an implantable microchip with GPS technology, but it is not an application we are pursuing.""

That's why I said it's 'on the table' of discussion... I didn't say it was on the verge of being implemented. I chose my words carefully.

Again, it's an academic talking, so what?

An Academic that is working on IT systems talking about future innovations that are in the works... He's not the policy maker, but he is, if not working personally on that technology, IS working WITH those groups... He makes the agenda quite clear : "Eventually every australian will be implanted with chips." Notice his timeline : 1-2 generations.

Ok, again, so what? Various sectors of our military are looking into RFID technology as sort of new dog tags, why is this important?

Because you're asking me to prove that this is a progressing agenda... nothing more. You're adding 'so that's not a bad thing' is irrellevant because of how you're framing the questions.

I think the question is irrelevant.

Your whole shtick seems to be hinging on insinuating that chips may enable some global dictator to take power using the chips as a means of control and surveillance. Frankly, while I agree the possibility is there for that use, guns and boots work A LOT better than chips for that purpose and these chips are not linked together by any central means and there is no current plan (or even technology available) to allow them to be linked in such a way.

I agree. It's not that this technology would 'enable' a global dictator to take power... I'm saying that SHOULD a new dictator show up on the scene with a plan of global domination like the MULTIPLE mass-killing tyrants of even the past century, having such an intricate population tracking system (that is still in development) would lead toa whole new level of the efficient eradication of his targets.

You are being paranoid about something that while yes it is technically possible, it's extremely unlikely to happen.

And what are you basing that likelihood on???

So your entire argument is "well it COULD happen!" ?

Then, why the hell are you using the internet? Credit cards? A cell phone? The postal service (public or private)? A landline phone? ALL of these are methods of tracking and keeping tabs on individuals and they're already here and already basically universal. Why are you not out in the wilderness somewhere away from all these ways the MAN holds you down?

Look, awareness of this system going up is one thing, the complete abandon of modern urban life to go live in the woods picking berries... that's not really an option.

Also, it's at a stage right now where this 'agenda' (which I've only shown in the sense of the multiple, seemingly independant proposals for implementing RFID microships)

I do any face-to-face business with cash and I seem to do just fine. I dont like using credit cards because I know I'm not responsible enough to have one.
I'm not a fan of credit cards, but for a different reason, (essentially the 1% interest on my bank account compared to the 20% interest on credit).

Cash IS gradually being phazed out of use... at least to the 95% where there might still be actual cash, but it will be dispenssed in such a way that all your purchases would be similarly tracked.
 
A scary thought, but I'll wait a while before I grab a thousand cans of beans, a bomb shelter, and a shotgun.

Don't forget the pretzels, man!!!
 
YES!!! If you're committing credit card fraud, having John Doe's credit card information is 95% useless unless you don't mind getting inevitably arrested. We're talking about getting the data from the card, remember they are not taking the actual card out of anyone's pockets.
So what? Getting caught isnt exactly a deterrent for most criminals

You have to PUT that information ONTO a seperate CLONED card. That was NOT shown in the video, because it should be self-evident that the card number is useless to a criminal.
A credit card number and info is not useless. A person can use that information several times before being burned or if they're smart, they sell the info to others out of the country.

My issue is that so many people have the tendancy to just deny facts and information on an arbitrary basis... (You're original statement was about the size of the chips)
Being unable to clearly see or tell what something in a picture is is not arbitrary

So if this whole friggin topic is commong knowledge that everyone's purchases, products, phone calls, emails, tv watching, driving habits, etc are all tracked, traced to you and databased for future reference... why are you so adamant to say that a 'new area' where this will be implemented is so far out of left field as to be called 'hemorraging paranoia'???
Because you seem to think it's all a part of some grand plot for world domination.

We weren't arguing the 'value' of these chips, I was showing you that these chips are being used... the purpose, because the start of this discussion is really beyond the scope of this thread...
Ok, and we've established they do exist, moving on.

I was giving a brief capacity of what these computer databasing systems have the CAPACITY to track... there are NOT enough PEOPLE working with these systems to have anything of what you're suggesting... Echelon and other telecommunication data mining machines DO EXIST and for all intents and purposes is already in use... however, you're going to blow the extent to which these programs are in use as though it proves your point.


http://www.harttech.com/images/stories/downloads/hart_carnivore_3.pdf
Apparently the name of the program has changed from 'echelon' to 'carnivore'... maybe they are both in use...
Maybe you could explain the relevance of the link...

Yes, but often it's not just statements... sometimes it's 'memos'... sometimes the people coming out with this information have a pretty incredible track record of predicting future events BASED ON these conversations... As for contributors to infowars, I'm sure it's been the case on occasion, but the book I'm thinking of is NOT in any way affiliated.
Again, uncheckable=worthless

Ok... well, how many Swiss Jews were killed in the holocaust?? (answer 0 : Swiss jews were not disarmed like the German Jews)
**Facepalm** Germany never invaded Sweden

The difference between mass killing on the battle fields is that if I also have a gun I at least have a fighting chance... if I'm 'fighting' a punch card machine that decides how much food I should eat and how long I should live... I'm trapped like a rat in a cage.
A gun can decide the same thing

An Academic that is working on IT systems talking about future innovations that are in the works... He's not the policy maker, but he is, if not working personally on that technology, IS working WITH those groups... He makes the agenda quite clear : "Eventually every australian will be implanted with chips." Notice his timeline : 1-2 generations.
Again, so ****ing what? He's talking, speculating.

I agree. It's not that this technology would 'enable' a global dictator to take power... I'm saying that SHOULD a new dictator show up on the scene with a plan of global domination like the MULTIPLE mass-killing tyrants of even the past century, having such an intricate population tracking system (that is still in development) would lead toa whole new level of the efficient eradication of his targets.
And I would argue guns and boots are more efficient.

And what are you basing that likelihood on???
The US is and has been one of the most politically stable countries of the modern era. It makes for good fiction but the reality is MUCH different.

Look, awareness of this system going up is one thing, the complete abandon of modern urban life to go live in the woods picking berries... that's not really an option.
No it's totally an option if you dont want to be armchair about it.

Also, it's at a stage right now where this 'agenda' (which I've only shown in the sense of the multiple, seemingly independant proposals for implementing RFID microships)
So you're misinterpreting planned advancements in technology for an "agenda"
 
Because you seem to think it's all a part of some grand plot for world domination.

Well... why does a farmer brand his cattle?

Ok, and we've established they do exist, moving on.

Yes... the technology exists, and while the bill may not be specifically referring to implantable microchip tracking, the actual text is ambiguous enough that it COULD be reffering to a chip that would be implanted (in your person, a bracelet, or card) that would link to your medical information.

Maybe you could explain the relevance of the link...
The carnivore system, like echelon before it, processes EVERY SINGLE communication (internet, e-mail, telephone, and through that process every bank transaction) and it has preset 'flags' which once raised bring the specific instance to the attention of a live person who then makes the determination on the relevance... which can all be done centrally through litterally thousands of these servers being installed in virtually every communications company at least in NOrth America.

This is the detailed information on the technical aspects involved in this data mining program.

Again, uncheckable=worthless

Unless the trustworthyness of the source itself is also proven...

The US is and has been one of the most politically stable countries of the modern era. It makes for good fiction but the reality is MUCH different.

Do you REALLY feel that the political climate is STILL all that stable?? Even as little as 2-3 years ago, I would be forced to concede that to you, but that climate is changing, and surprisingly rapidly at that.

No it's totally an option if you dont want to be armchair about it.

Ok, you're right... it's an 'option', but that's not the first option onthe list.

So you're misinterpreting planned advancements in technology for an "agenda"

The people that are pushing the advancement of technology in these areas is an agenda, even if it's a benevolant one.

You say so what, everything looks good... and I agree it is made to look good, and people always will sell a product on it's benefits, no matter WHAT the product is.

It's really similar to the concept of 'planned obsolescence' with vehicles... every year there are 'new models' out there so people are more pressured to get new cars.

If you really want it sold on the 'good things'... in an implanted cashless society, nobody would have to do taxes anymore, since all the data from every transaction the person makes over the year can simply be 'deducted' off of the persons chip... (unless your chip says that you are exempt of tax)

No children could be kidnapped in such a highly tracked society... through a simple matter of 'checkpoint readers' that scans for the chips and can locate people within 'sectors'.

There would be a drastic increase in 'efficiency', because psychological algorithms can be used based on your personal preferences that will decide what job you are best suited to doing.

The reason there's benefits is because the chip is just a TOOL... it can be used to empower yourself or enslave yourself. The DANGER of this technology is in that we intend for there to always be benevolant leaders working on the best interests ofo the people... is that still true today?
 
Yes... the technology exists, and while the bill may not be specifically referring to implantable microchip tracking, the actual text is ambiguous enough that it COULD be reffering to a chip that would be implanted (in your person, a bracelet, or card) that would link to your medical information.
Yet there is no mention of it being mandatory.

The carnivore system, like echelon before it, processes EVERY SINGLE communication (internet, e-mail, telephone, and through that process every bank transaction) and it has preset 'flags' which once raised bring the specific instance to the attention of a live person who then makes the determination on the relevance... which can all be done centrally through litterally thousands of these servers being installed in virtually every communications company at least in NOrth America.
I dont see anything in the link that states the program is for that purpose or could be used as such.

Unless the trustworthyness of the source itself is also proven...
Example?

Do you REALLY feel that the political climate is STILL all that stable?? Even as little as 2-3 years ago, I would be forced to concede that to you, but that climate is changing, and surprisingly rapidly at that.
The political climate may seem hostile in the US but I promise you we are FAR more stable than most people want to admit. Conservatives may be pissy about losing the election and may insinuate that "there may be some consequences..." but no group of any appreciable size is going to do anything. People talk a great game but aside from a handful of idiot rednecks with nothing to lose and too much time on their hands are going to do anything.

Americans are too lazy for political instability. When we have protests where one person gets in someone else's face, we consider that stepping over the line. Have you been watching the news in Kyrgyzstan? We arent anywhere CLOSE to that.

The people that are pushing the advancement of technology in these areas is an agenda, even if it's a benevolant one.
I'm not here to quibble over qualifiers. When I say "agenda" I mean the one you seem to be paranoid about happening.

It's really similar to the concept of 'planned obsolescence' with vehicles... every year there are 'new models' out there so people are more pressured to get new cars.
Planned obsolescence is a business move but it does have some added benefits. We get older technology phased out more quickly and fewer holdouts.

If you really want it sold on the 'good things'... in an implanted cashless society, nobody would have to do taxes anymore, since all the data from every transaction the person makes over the year can simply be 'deducted' off of the persons chip... (unless your chip says that you are exempt of tax)
Ok, and why is this a problem?

No children could be kidnapped in such a highly tracked society... through a simple matter of 'checkpoint readers' that scans for the chips and can locate people within 'sectors'.

There would be a drastic increase in 'efficiency', because psychological algorithms can be used based on your personal preferences that will decide what job you are best suited to doing.

The reason there's benefits is because the chip is just a TOOL... it can be used to empower yourself or enslave yourself. The DANGER of this technology is in that we intend for there to always be benevolant leaders working on the best interests ofo the people... is that still true today?
Again, speculation and you've seen too many movies.
 
Yet there is no mention of it being mandatory.

Just forget about 'mandatory' for the moment... there's 6 billion people on the planet, MANY of whom would NOT at this point accept 'mandatory' implanted chips....

I dont see anything in the link that states the program is for that purpose or could be used as such.

I'm using the wikipedia page only because it's well sourced at the bottom :
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON]Echelon (signals intelligence) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Not sure about the trustworthiness of this one :
World-Information.Org

This being a subject that isn't exactly 'headline news worthy'... and run by one of the more secretive agencies in the US... It's decidedly difficult to find really 'good' sources.... That wiki page is dated to almost 10 years old...


Let's just say you have a 'nameless source' that tells you 'insider information'... whatever it was he tells you, no matter how incredible comes to pass everytime, verifiably and openly... he builds his own credibility. That's not exactly a simple task to do, which is why it becomes almost too tedious to bother.

The political climate may seem hostile in the US but I promise you we are FAR more stable than most people want to admit. Conservatives may be pissy about losing the election and may insinuate that "there may be some consequences..." but no group of any appreciable size is going to do anything. People talk a great game but aside from a handful of idiot rednecks with nothing to lose and too much time on their hands are going to do anything.

If you wouldn't have put that into a 'left-right' perspective... I might have been able to agree. However, this is NOT SIMPLY a matter of 'republicans mad about losing' (I really doubt the average person is really that childish), the vast majority (because there are some legitimate racists) of people that oppose Obama are NOT doing so because of the color of his skin, but because of the actions he's taking.

As for actual violence, I agree there's more people that talk big then act big, but ultimately, it depends how bad things get.

Americans are too lazy for political instability. When we have protests where one person gets in someone else's face, we consider that stepping over the line. Have you been watching the news in Kyrgyzstan? We arent anywhere CLOSE to that.

Sad but true.

I'm not here to quibble over qualifiers. When I say "agenda" I mean the one you seem to be paranoid about happening.

I'm just clearing the reality of the matter, because to you 'agenda' has a very negative connotation... it may be a good thing for humanity to be chipped, tracked, adn their every action databased... All I'm really saying is that there are agenda's going on to get this accomplished in the future... and just like a hammer is as a tool, it can either be used for good things like building houses, or negative things like cracking skulls...

But, because I'm looking at the negative potential, it makes me 'paranoid'.

Planned obsolescence is a business move but it does have some added benefits. We get older technology phased out more quickly and fewer holdouts.

But it's still an agenda, hence the point.

Ok, and why is this a problem?
What the no more paperwork for taxes?? That could arguably be a good thing...
Or did you mean the 'exemptions'?? In which case the question seems to assume that you would be 'exempt'.

Again, speculation and you've seen too many movies.

That's funny how people attack posts indiscriminately... It's almost like if I had said 'and eating babies is a bad thing' that you would attack it saying 'no, babies are shown to be nutritious and delicious.'

I'm curious though, which movie was I unintentionally referencing??

The only reference I was thinking of was expanding on 'amber alerts'
 
Just forget about 'mandatory' for the moment... there's 6 billion people on the planet, MANY of whom would NOT at this point accept 'mandatory' implanted chips....
Your whole shtick so far has been "nudge nudge wink winking" that these COULD be mandatory.

I'm using the wikipedia page only because it's well sourced at the bottom :
Echelon (signals intelligence) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A lot of it seems to be speculation, even the sources dont give out much actual definitive information.

Not sure about the trustworthiness of this one :
World-Information.Org
Again, a lot of "rumored to be" but no actual hard, verifiable information.

This being a subject that isn't exactly 'headline news worthy'... and run by one of the more secretive agencies in the US... It's decidedly difficult to find really 'good' sources.... That wiki page is dated to almost 10 years old...
Maybe that's a clue...

Let's just say you have a 'nameless source' that tells you 'insider information'... whatever it was he tells you, no matter how incredible comes to pass everytime, verifiably and openly... he builds his own credibility. That's not exactly a simple task to do, which is why it becomes almost too tedious to bother.
It is NEVER, and I ****ing repeat NEVER too tedious to fact check ANYTHING someone says regardless of who they are.

If you wouldn't have put that into a 'left-right' perspective... I might have been able to agree. However, this is NOT SIMPLY a matter of 'republicans mad about losing' (I really doubt the average person is really that childish)
Go to a teabagger rally, they really are that childish.

the vast majority (because there are some legitimate racists) of people that oppose Obama are NOT doing so because of the color of his skin, but because of the actions he's taking.
As long as he doesnt order martial law or demand a temple built in his honor, nobody is going to do ****. Bush got caught red handed lying time and time and TIME again and nobody did dick.

In France, there was a SUSPICION of "irregularities" during a presidential election and they were overturning cars and rioting in the streets. The US is politically stable.

But, because I'm looking at the negative potential, it makes me 'paranoid'.
What makes you paranoid is FIXATING on the negative.

What the no more paperwork for taxes?? That could arguably be a good thing...
Or did you mean the 'exemptions'?? In which case the question seems to assume that you would be 'exempt'.
A streamlined system of taxes could relieve the federal government of a serious burden (logistics aint cheap) of both time and money and free up spending for more useful pursuits.

That's funny how people attack posts indiscriminately... It's almost like if I had said 'and eating babies is a bad thing' that you would attack it saying 'no, babies are shown to be nutritious and delicious.'
It's 'effing speculation! I'm not gonna sugar coat it, you're making wild speculations with very little to stand on.

I'm curious though, which movie was I unintentionally referencing??
Any action flick involving "the government" made post 1970.
 
Forget the national ID card, implantable microchips are coming to a clinic near you no later than 36 months after the bill is signed into law.

What this seems to be missing is a requirement for the implantation of RFID chips.

ETA: Also, I almost didn't recognize this as coming from Alex Jones at first. I didn't see any references to the Bohemian Grove, the Council on Foreign Relations, or the JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOZ.
 
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Your whole shtick so far has been "nudge nudge wink winking" that these COULD be mandatory.

In terms of this SPECIFIC bill, it's so ambiguous, that it COULD be as that would fall under the definitions they are using, but does not say EXPLICITLY that this would be 'implanted chips' or just a new health card.

A lot of it seems to be speculation, even the sources dont give out much actual definitive information.

Again, a lot of "rumored to be" but no actual hard, verifiable information.

Well, the fact that the program exists, and has the scope of 'datamining' indiscriminately, in any country that they operate the system in... and that we are making by several magnitudes of interceptable transmissions that can be tied to the individual.

Maybe that's a clue...

DO YOU EVEN GRASP how much technology has advanced in the past 10 years even?!?! And to think that these types of systems had certain capacities 10 years ago, and with billions of dollars in budgeting that there might have been a few 'enhancements' over those years?

It is NEVER, and I ****ing repeat NEVER too tedious to fact check ANYTHING someone says regardless of who they are.

Now, there's checking it for myself and there's convincing a 'hostile witness' of this are two DRASTICALLY different standards in proof.

Go to a teabagger rally, they really are that childish.

If you went to one of those meeting before it was called 'teabagger' there would also be a different story... now there's the 'democrat' tea party and the republican 'coffee party'... the entire sitation has been infiltrated and co-opted and now reflect the interests those same parties claimed to be opposed to only a few months ago.

As long as he doesnt order martial law or demand a temple built in his honor, nobody is going to do ****. Bush got caught red handed lying time and time and TIME again and nobody did dick.

In France, there was a SUSPICION of "irregularities" during a presidential election and they were overturning cars and rioting in the streets. The US is politically stable.

Or maybe the people really are that fat, dumb, happy, and docile... Bush should have been impeached on SO MANY occasions it's rediculous.

What makes you paranoid is FIXATING on the negative.

I'm not 'fixated' on the negative as much as you would think... when the sequence of making the case goes :
-'not real doesn't exist' -> that source doesn't prove X -> that source doesn't prove Y -> Ok, it exists what's so bad about it?

That last section : 'What's so bad about it?" Because it's taken SO MUCH ENERGY in denying the existance of the topic when it finally gets shown to your satisfaction, you're concinved that it's a negative...

No, I'm saying it's important to know that this technology exists and to create systems to ensure that we don't end up living in a 1984 / Brave New world society.

Any action flick involving "the government" made post 1970.

Lol I knew hollywood was derivative... but come on. you're going to tell me I accidentally looked at a movie script and thought it was something real.

Give me a break... You know it took about 5 pages of discussion at one point to prove that spider-goats were real, I don't just talk out of my ass... I get stuff wrong, and I don't have all the various sources at my fingertips... but I'm definately not just 'making stuff up'...

I really wish I was though.
 
Go to a teabagger rally, they really are that childish..





:lamo


Irony...... Love it...


Tell me how "adult" is it to use "teabagger" to smear you opposition, huh?


If you want to talk about balls in your mouth, perhaps you should try the sex and sexuality section. :ssst:
 
In terms of this SPECIFIC bill, it's so ambiguous, that it COULD be as that would fall under the definitions they are using, but does not say EXPLICITLY that this would be 'implanted chips' or just a new health card.
But again, your entire dance has been insinuating that the chips will be mandatory.

Well, the fact that the program exists, and has the scope of 'datamining' indiscriminately, in any country that they operate the system in... and that we are making by several magnitudes of interceptable transmissions that can be tied to the individual.
Do we actually know if the program still exists?

DO YOU EVEN GRASP how much technology has advanced in the past 10 years even?!?! And to think that these types of systems had certain capacities 10 years ago, and with billions of dollars in budgeting that there might have been a few 'enhancements' over those years?
Nope, sliderules ftw!

Now, there's checking it for myself and there's convincing a 'hostile witness' of this are two DRASTICALLY different standards in proof.
You dont seem to want to check things for yourself.

If you went to one of those meeting before it was called 'teabagger' there would also be a different story... now there's the 'democrat' tea party and the republican 'coffee party'... the entire sitation has been infiltrated and co-opted and now reflect the interests those same parties claimed to be opposed to only a few months ago.
Yes, you'd see them BEFORE they adopted a stupid nickname. Just as childish though.

That last section : 'What's so bad about it?" Because it's taken SO MUCH ENERGY in denying the existance of the topic when it finally gets shown to your satisfaction, you're concinved that it's a negative...
Again maybe I'm missing the black helicopters viewpoint but I dont see the negative in RFID technology specifically. Yes it can be abused just like any other technology.

This seems to be your entire point is that RFID technology can be abused by unscrupulous individuals. Yes, we know. Any technology can and probably will at some point be abused, what's your point?

No, I'm saying it's important to know that this technology exists and to create systems to ensure that we don't end up living in a 1984 / Brave New world society.
Panicking over anti-theft tags in packages of razors is not a good way to go about that.

Lol I knew hollywood was derivative... but come on. you're going to tell me I accidentally looked at a movie script and thought it was something real.
I think people watch too many movies and start imprinting what they see onto their reality.

Give me a break... You know it took about 5 pages of discussion at one point to prove that spider-goats were real, I don't just talk out of my ass... I get stuff wrong, and I don't have all the various sources at my fingertips... but I'm definately not just 'making stuff up'...
No you are speculating in the "to take to be true on the basis of insufficient evidence" variety.

:lamo


Irony...... Love it...


Tell me how "adult" is it to use "teabagger" to smear you opposition, huh?


If you want to talk about balls in your mouth, perhaps you should try the sex and sexuality section. :ssst:
Im using the term they used for themselves before they figured out "Oops! The nobility of our cause DOESNT over-ride the quasi-sexual meaning of the nickname we picked!"

teabaggers
 
But again, your entire dance has been insinuating that the chips will be mandatory.

Eventually... 10-20 years from now it may become mandatory...
First, make chips that will go into 'cards', 'cellphones', etc...
Later, to make it 'cool' people will be chipped for some reasons
later still, the uses of these chips will expand; video games, start linking data on chips to make 'multi-purpose' chips.
Then, once that generation is so accustomed to microchipping... and a majority of the population already HAS a microship... then conditions will be made to make it ever more difficult on people that do NOT have a chip...
Finally, once there's only a small number of people that have not opted in, THEN it can be made mandatory.

So, yes... microchipping will EVENTUALLY become mandatory... but that's far into the future.

Do we actually know if the program still exists?

If the 'echelon' program has been terminated, it's ONLY because an improved version has been created and given a new name.

You dont seem to want to check things for yourself.

No, I do check things for myself... I was the one that came out and said that the OP's bill doesn't explicitly call for IMPLANTED microchips... however, it's written ambiguously enough that an implanted chip is not excluded in what the bill states. That takes a level of honesty and verification in itself.

Yes, you'd see them BEFORE they adopted a stupid nickname. Just as childish though.

'Adopted' a nickname??? 'Teabaggers' was a media term created specifically to demonize a legitimate movement... That was until Glen Beck and his cronies decided it would be beneficial to co-opt the tea party movement. Then to offset this 'co-opting', some people came out with the 'coffee party'. That one didn't last long before the democrats came in and co-opted that... now, we're back into the same 'coke vs pepsi' division between these 'grassroots' movements.

Again maybe I'm missing the black helicopters viewpoint but I dont see the negative in RFID technology specifically. Yes it can be abused just like any other technology.
This seems to be your entire point is that RFID technology can be abused by unscrupulous individuals. Yes, we know. Any technology can and probably will at some point be abused, what's your point?

The point is that it CAN BE ABUSED like you've been denying for 5 friggin pages already...

Panicking over anti-theft tags in packages of razors is not a good way to go about that.

Again... I wasn't PANICKING... I was trying to prove it's existance... can't have a debate on the positives or negatives of an idea when you gotta spend the first 5 pages of a discussion proving the existance of the topic.

I think people watch too many movies and start imprinting what they see onto their reality.

While I'm sure that's a factor, at the same time truth is stranger then fiction more often then not.

'Wag the dog' is a particularly pertinent example of art imitating life.

Or, You could get into a film like 'angels and demons' that talks about the 'illuminati', while displaying only the most rediculous claims about the 'illumanity', so that if anyone DOES bring up the bavarian illuminati, freemasonry, etc... it gets debunked simply by 'oh you watch too many movies'... while there is a REAL and verifiable story behind these things, the information ends up being stifled by the debate about the existance of the topic.

You've even shown in this topic that 'microchips = black helicopters' (Which funny thing, there are black helicopters where I live, they just happen to be legitimate police usage), and in all the effort to actually show you the various elements of it's existance you've also taken on the stance that 'believing it exists = believing that it's bad'...

So, look, technology is advancing in such a way that biometrics and cashless systems are increasing in their usage, and the inevitable end is to have a society built around this type of cashless and tightly monitored society.

Religious people (more then any others) are going to equate these high tech control systems as 'signs' of the 'beast system' that will be throned by the 'anti-christ' until armageddon.

So, the process of this advancement and installation of this system will be a generational process, or else there would simply be too much resistance to such an idea to be implemented over a short time-frame...
 
Eventually... 10-20 years from now it may become mandatory...
First, make chips that will go into 'cards', 'cellphones', etc...
Later, to make it 'cool' people will be chipped for some reasons
later still, the uses of these chips will expand; video games, start linking data on chips to make 'multi-purpose' chips.
Then, once that generation is so accustomed to microchipping... and a majority of the population already HAS a microship... then conditions will be made to make it ever more difficult on people that do NOT have a chip...
Finally, once there's only a small number of people that have not opted in, THEN it can be made mandatory.

So, yes... microchipping will EVENTUALLY become mandatory... but that's far into the future.
Fallacies are a poor base for an argument
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope]Slippery slope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

If the 'echelon' program has been terminated, it's ONLY because an improved version has been created and given a new name.
Which is speculation until you can find proof of it.

No, I do check things for myself... I was the one that came out and said that the OP's bill doesn't explicitly call for IMPLANTED microchips... however, it's written ambiguously enough that an implanted chip is not excluded in what the bill states. That takes a level of honesty and verification in itself.
No it's intellectual dishonesty to say "Well, it doesnt say it WONT do it so let's assume it'll give the green light to go ahead and do it.

'Adopted' a nickname??? 'Teabaggers' was a media term created specifically to demonize a legitimate movement... That was until Glen Beck and his cronies decided it would be beneficial to co-opt the tea party movement. Then to offset this 'co-opting', some people came out with the 'coffee party'. That one didn't last long before the democrats came in and co-opted that... now, we're back into the same 'coke vs pepsi' division between these 'grassroots' movements.
I was watching these idiots in the beginning. A group of middle class, middle aged, Conservatives standing around holding asinine signs with no clear leader, no clear message, and no clear or realistic goals.

The point is that it CAN BE ABUSED like you've been denying for 5 friggin pages already...
I have never denied that technology can be abused. I did state previously that RFID technology as you've cited it so far and the proposed use of carrying medical records does not constitute abuse in my book

Again... I wasn't PANICKING... I was trying to prove it's existance... can't have a debate on the positives or negatives of an idea when you gotta spend the first 5 pages of a discussion proving the existance of the topic.
You're posting all this stuff about how SOMEDAY we'll all have to be chipped, sounds like panic to me.

While I'm sure that's a factor, at the same time truth is stranger then fiction more often then not.

'Wag the dog' is a particularly pertinent example of art imitating life.
I'm sorry Wag The Dog was about falsifying a war to the media that wasnt actually happening, how on earth is that "art imitating life"?

Or, You could get into a film like 'angels and demons' that talks about the 'illuminati', while displaying only the most rediculous claims about the 'illumanity', so that if anyone DOES bring up the bavarian illuminati, freemasonry, etc... it gets debunked simply by 'oh you watch too many movies'... while there is a REAL and verifiable story behind these things, the information ends up being stifled by the debate about the existance of the topic.
It's dismissed because it's an asinine topic. I dont want to start a whole spin on stupid conspiracy theories that involve a sooooooper secret society (so secret that every moron with a mouse seems to have the ability to find out what they do).

So, look, technology is advancing in such a way that biometrics and cashless systems are increasing in their usage, and the inevitable end is to have a society built around this type of cashless and tightly monitored society.
I dont completely agree, but ok.

Religious people (more then any others) are going to equate these high tech control systems as 'signs' of the 'beast system' that will be throned by the 'anti-christ' until armageddon.
Then they'd better come up with an alternative the rest of us can live with that doesnt involve technological stagnation.
 
Fallacies are a poor base for an argument
Slippery slope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're misapplying the 'slippery slope' fallacy... If I had said, implanting people with microchips could lead to a situation where it becomes mandatory... that would be the fallacy, I was explaining the process used in countless different matters in order for the majority of people to gradually come to accept something that they otherwise would not accept initially if offered as a whole.

Which is speculation until you can find proof of it.

Ok... fine... data mining programs have never existed and will never exist... better?

No it's intellectual dishonesty to say "Well, it doesnt say it WONT do it so let's assume it'll give the green light to go ahead and do it.

You're grasping here... I'm trying to explain the bill section the OP referred to is so ambiguous as to what the new system IS that it COULD be a system that has a special microchip implanted into a persons arm, or implanted into a card they keep in their wallet... what's clear is that a new system for medical data is called for, the implementation of this system is made quite ambiguously so it could be any number of potential systems and still fall within what is defined in the law.

You're posting all this stuff about how SOMEDAY we'll all have to be chipped, sounds like panic to me.

We must use drastically different definitions of 'panic' is all.

I'm sorry Wag The Dog was about falsifying a war to the media that wasnt actually happening, how on earth is that "art imitating life"?

Well... the first example would be the 240 marines lost in Beirut just 24 hours prior to Grenada. To name just one example.

It's dismissed because it's an asinine topic. I dont want to start a whole spin on stupid conspiracy theories that involve a sooooooper secret society (so secret that every moron with a mouse seems to have the ability to find out what they do).

Ok, anyone with a mouse can find out that the group exists, how it got started, and maybe a few notable members.... beyond that, it becomes a matter that is mostly disinformation or legitimately baseless information mixed in with what is accurate so that it is intensely difficult to know what is true... and I'll leave it at that, because ultimately all that I know with reasonable certainty about the illuminati is pretty mundane and less then secret.

Then they'd better come up with an alternative the rest of us can live with that doesnt involve technological stagnation.

Just to note, it's not the technology that is the 'beast', but that when this technology (and other conditions in essentially all religious texts (as far as I'm aware)) that are effectively signs of the 'end times'... I mean, it's only groups like the Amish that reject all technological advancement beyond 'beasts of burden'.
 
Im using the term they used for themselves before they figured out "Oops! The nobility of our cause DOESNT over-ride the quasi-sexual meaning of the nickname we picked!"

teabaggers




right, if you want to talk of having balls in your mouth, I suggest the sex and sexuality forum....


if you want to discuss the tea party like an adult drop the vulgar idiocy and using a childish excuse for incivility....
 
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