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Are Cuba and Venezuela fomenting leftist violence in Latin America?

Ahlevah

Ahlevah

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Sounds reasonable, certainly a possibility:

Maduro has a long history of overstating his influence in the region, hoping to appear all-powerful in the eyes of his countrymen and the world. He has extra incentive to do so now, given Venezuela’s severe economic and humanitarian crisis and the ongoing threat to his rule from Juan Guaidó, who is recognized as the country’s legitimate president by dozens of governments, including the United States. Cuba is also facing hard economic times, owing in part to sanctions from the Trump administration. That said, numerous credible voices, including Argentine Foreign Minister Jorge Faurie and Luis Almagro, the secretary-general of the Organization of American States, have denounced what they see as clear Venezuelan and Cuban interference in the region’s recent unrest. And at the peak of the rioting in Ecuador in early October, that country’s interior minister said that 17 people had been arrested at the airport, “most of them Venezuelans . . . carrying information about the protests.”

Why Latin America Was Primed to Explode
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Ahlevah said:
Sounds reasonable, certainly a possibility:
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Venezuela can’t “formulate” two square meals a day, much less a revolution, and Cuba has been very uninterested in “exporting the revolution” since their Soviet protector collapsed.

It’s nothing more than a boogeyman being used by governments which want an excuse to brutally crackdown.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Venezuela can’t “formulate” two square meals a day, much less a revolution, and Cuba has been very uninterested in “exporting the revolution” since their Soviet protector collapsed.

It’s nothing more than a boogeyman being used by governments which want an excuse to brutally crackdown.
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Who wants to brutally crack down?

Piñera has been kind of a ***** this whole episode, the dumb mfer is actually giving concessions to the rioters without putting down the riot first which is always a bad idea.

I’d have gone full Frederick Funston before one centavo of concessions
 
Hello, Cuba has been a communist country since 1960 or so. Venezuela has been a socialist country ever since Chavez.

The US has been screwing with them ever since, by way of sanctions and more.

A few months ago the US government cut off power and water to the Venezuela Embassy in Washington DC.

Years ago we overthrew numerous governments in Argentina and Chile.

WTF are you even talking about?
 
This is a very good time for Trump Republicans to talk a lot about Venezuela and Cuba.

It keeps the rubes in line.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Who wants to brutally crack down?

Piñera has been kind of a ***** this whole episode, the dumb mfer is actually giving concessions to the rioters without putting down the riot first which is always a bad idea.

I’d have gone full Frederick Funston before one centavo of concessions
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Yes, yes, we all know you have a hard on for death squads and would happily see thousands of innocent people slaughtered.

None of which changes the fact that Venezuela is incapable and Cuba unwilling at this point of doing what they are accused of.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Venezuela can’t “formulate” two square meals a day, much less a revolution, and Cuba has been very uninterested in “exporting the revolution” since their Soviet protector collapsed.

It’s nothing more than a boogeyman being used by governments which want an excuse to brutally crackdown.
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The Cubans undermined democracy in Venezuela, didn't they? Not all of that took place before 1990. And some of Maduro's harshest critics have been other Latin American nations. So it would make sense that he would want to foment discord in those nations in order to distract them from what he's doing in his own country. I mean, when people like the Argentine foreign minister and the secretary general of the Organization of American States point their fingers at Cuba and Venezuela we should pay attention and look into it.

Military pacts with Cuba help Venezuela's president suppress dissent.

Venezuelan Democracy Was Strangled by Cuba – Foreign Policy
 
Ahlevah said:
The Cubans undermined democracy in Venezuela, didn't they? Not all of that took place before 1990. And some of Maduro's harshest critics have been other Latin American nations. So it would make sense that he would want to foment discord in those nations in order to distract them from what he's doing in his own country. I mean, when people like the Argentine foreign minister and the secretary general of the Organization of American States point their fingers at Cuba and Venezuela we should pay attention and look into it.

Military pacts with Cuba help Venezuela's president suppress dissent.

Venezuelan Democracy Was Strangled by Cuba – Foreign Policy
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What Maduro wants and what Maduro is capable of actually doing are two very different things.

Your own source states that the Cubans shifted the Venezuelan intelligence forces towards being an internal “police” force rather than launching operations in neighboring countries.
 
The elite treat the poor like crap in Latin America.

That's why communism gained a foothold in Latin America after WWII. The poor wanted to kill the rich and take their stuff.

Cuba is an example of this. But it turned into "Animal Farm" where the the communists who took over became the rich.

In Venezuela, the poor took over via the ballot box. Venezuela went from a prosperous, oil rich country to an impoverished country, but if the rich would've shared a little of that wealth with the poor, Chavez would've never happened.
 
swing_voter said:
The elite treat the poor like crap in Latin America.

That's why communism gained a foothold in Latin America after WWII. The poor wanted to kill the rich and take their stuff.

Cuba is an example of this. But it turned into "Animal Farm" where the the communists who took over became the rich.

In Venezuela, the poor took over via the ballot box. Venezuela went from a prosperous, oil rich country to an impoverished country, but if the rich would've shared a little of that wealth with the poor, Chavez would've never happened.
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The elite treat the poor like crap in pretty much every country, not just SA.

For a variety of reasons, we have more homeless in this country now than ever before.
 
The better question would be are the US governemnt people fomenting right wing violence in Venezuela ?
 
oneworld2 said:
The better question would be are the US governemnt people fomenting right wing violence in Venezuela ?
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A good question. Thus far, I have seen no evidence of that beyond conspiracy theory, and most of the people of Venezuela appear perfectly discontent with their government and current state of affairs without fomenting by the United States.
 
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Felis Leo said:
A good question. Thus far, I have seen no evidence of that beyond conspiracy theory, and most of the people of Venezuela appear perfectly discontent with their government and current state of affairs without fomenting by the United States.
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At least , given the history and capabilities , it is the more likely option imo
 
oneworld2 said:
At least , given the history and capabilities , it is the more likely option imo
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But doesn't this presume that South Americans in general and Venezuelans in particular are not capable of individual agency without the go-ahead of United States backing? That, all things being equal, the vast majority of Venezuelans would just live with and learn to quietly deal with government corruption, mismanagement, and spoliation that has led to the country's present immiseration?

It was the general dissatisfaction of Venezuelans that led to the original election of Hugo Chavez. I see no reason why general dissatisfaction with the present state of affairs would lead most Venezuelans to openly turn against the current regime.
 
Felis Leo said:
True. But South Americans have been perfectly happy to commit violence upon one another without much prodding from us.
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Some is without prodding from us, some is with enormous prodding from us. Our tendency to put in place right-wing dictators who commit violence, often with our training and our support. That counts as our violence, even if it's people we helped get power doing it.
 
Felis Leo said:
But doesn't this presume that South Americans in general and Venezuelans in particular are not capable of individual agency without the go-ahead of United States backing? That, all things being equal, the vast majority of Venezuelans would just live with and learn to quietly deal with government corruption, mismanagement, and spoliation that has led to the country's present immiseration?

It was the general dissatisfaction of Venezuelans that led to the original election of Hugo Chavez. I see no reason why general dissatisfaction with the present state of affairs would lead most Venezuelans to openly turn against the current regime.
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You used the crucial phrase " all things being equal " when obviously that's definitely not the case now nor has been since the USA acquired a great degree of control over much of Latin/Central America. The history of US meddling in and outright direct actions against the wishes of the people that inhabit those regions is undisputed and well documented.

Of course the people in those regions are capable of running their own affairs if all was free and fair but it isn't as I expect you already know.

The bottom line is the US governments past and present don't mind corrupt/repressive leaderships so long as they serve the US interests

I agree that Venezuelans should be allowed to sort out their own affairs as much as is possible and see the US meddling wrt Guaido and co as counter to that. Just the same as it was when they supported the coupsters that temporarily oustered Chavez in 2002.

I am sure you will be fully aware of the wholesale outcry from many in the US about the possibility of Russian interference in their " democracy " ( it's actually a plutocracy but nevermind ) . TBH them crying about it is like Ted Bundy complaining about a little rough treatment at the hands of a woman PC during his arrest.
 
Felis Leo said:
A good question. Thus far, I have seen no evidence of that beyond conspiracy theory, and most of the people of Venezuela appear perfectly discontent with their government and current state of affairs without fomenting by the United States.
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It's a safe bet that the US is very much fomenting dissent and overthrow. Trump just noted that our efforts in Bolivia have been successful. Evo Morales has stepped down to minimize the violence being visited on his people by likely CIA efforts.

What you see as conspiracy theory is most likely conspiracy fact. Yes Virginia, the US government has a long and well documented history of overthrowing legitimate governments who do no kiss its ass.
 
oneworld2 said:
The better question would be are the US governemnt people fomenting right wing violence in Venezuela ?
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The answer to that question is quite obvious. Marco Rubio and Guaido are best of friends. The federal government put the Venezuelan Embassy under siege some months back, and eventually prevailed in throwing out the staff in favor of their own man Guaido.

With different names, this same basic scenario has played out many times in many places around the globe for many years.

We abhor the rule of law when it works against our interests.
 
oneworld2 said:
You used the crucial phrase " all things being equal " when obviously that's definitely not the case now nor has been since the USA acquired a great degree of control over much of Latin/Central America. The history of US meddling in and outright direct actions against the wishes of the people that inhabit those regions is undisputed and well documented.

Of course the people in those regions are capable of running their own affairs if all was free and fair but it isn't as I expect you already know.

The bottom line is the US governments past and present don't mind corrupt/repressive leaderships so long as they serve the US interests

I agree that Venezuelans should be allowed to sort out their own affairs as much as is possible and see the US meddling wrt Guaido and co as counter to that. Just the same as it was when they supported the coupsters that temporarily oustered Chavez in 2002.

I am sure you will be fully aware of the wholesale outcry from many in the US about the possibility of Russian interference in their " democracy " ( it's actually a plutocracy but nevermind ) . TBH them crying about it is like Ted Bundy complaining about a little rough treatment at the hands of a woman PC during his arrest.
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Really, they have to PREFER such corrupt leaders, because for leaders to support the US over their own people, they both have to be corrupt, and to use oppression to keep power over those people who don't like that. Simple hypocrisy: we feel free to ally with countries on the border of, say, the USSR or China, while we have a 'Monroe doctrine' saying countries in North or South America cannot have loyalties to any other country but us. Power corrupts.
 
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Craig234 said:
Really, they have to PREFER such corrupt leaders, because for leaders to support the US over their own people, they both have to be corrupt, and to use oppression to keep power over those people who don't like that. Simple hypocrisy: we feel free to ally with countries on the border of, say, the USSR or China, while we have a 'Monroe doctrine' saying counties in North or South America cannot have loyalties to any other country but us. Power corrupts.
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I agree with you, the hypocrisy evident in US foreign policy, whether that be " democracy promotion " , " humanitarian interventions" or " opposition to human rights violations " is easily established once people can extricate themseves from a good Western education. Virtually all states/governments are guilty of it but we are always told here in the West that we are the good guys trying to do good in a bad world full of bad people and our people buy into that, or enough of them do.

It is a truism that the rich elites in Latin America have an affinity to the US more than they do the poor of their own countries. Their loyalty is to money / power and their determination to hang on to them. That too plays out around the world .
 
oneworld2 said:
It is a truism that the rich elites in Latin America have an affinity to the US more than they do the poor of their own countries. Their loyalty is to money / power and their determination to hang on to them. That too plays out around the world .
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It's very true. When people base their wealth on exploitation of others, they support the exploitation. If you've ever met someone from Venezuela, there's a good chance they were in the former white ruling minority class, who are violently in favor of returning to that, and loyal to the US who is on their side to do so; or similarly with the formerly wealthier Cubans who form the exile community in the US. Just this week, they overthrew Morales in Bolivia in a coup.
 
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