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Good4Nothin said:
I never said I believe the official story. I said the conspiracy theory I have heard about does not make sense.

Does the conspiracy theory make sense to you? We don't have to believe either one or the other. We just don't know. The US government didn't seem to gain anything because of the attack. And if for some reason they wanted to level the towers, they didn't need the airplane show. All that trouble for really nothing.

There probably are lots of holes in the official story. I didn't follow all the infinity of details people were speculating about. I don't have an opinion on the official story. My opinion, expressed in the OP, is that the conspiracy theories do not make sense.

If it bothers you that the official story doesn't make sense to you, it should also bother you that the conspiracy theory doesn't make sense.
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You are talking to a magic mini nuke believer.
 
Good4Nothin said:
I never said I believe the official story. I said the conspiracy theory I have heard about does not make sense.

Does the conspiracy theory make sense to you? We don't have to believe either one or the other. We just don't know. The US government didn't seem to gain anything because of the attack. And if for some reason they wanted to level the towers, they didn't need the airplane show. All that trouble for really nothing.

There probably are lots of holes in the official story. I didn't follow all the infinity of details people were speculating about. I don't have an opinion on the official story. My opinion, expressed in the OP, is that the conspiracy theories do not make sense.

If it bothers you that the official story doesn't make sense to you, it should also bother you that the conspiracy theory doesn't make sense.
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My position is simple: if we use dictionary definitions, the events of the day absolutely were a conspiracy. That is, more than one person were involved in planning and executing the events of the day. The planning was the conspiracy, and the overt acts were the events of the day. They fulfilled the conspiracy.

If you accept those definitions, we are on the same boat.

Then the question becomes "who were the conspirators"?

The official conspiracy says it was 19 arabs with box cutters being ordered and controlled by Osama. Sadly, there are no facts or evidence to support that theory. You "don't follow all the details" as you say, but I and others have very much followed all the details. And it's been 18 years worth of following and examining the details.

The official theory does not pass muster, at all. That's why there are pilots, lawyers, architects and engineers, veterans and so many other groups who do not buy into that theory. They don't necessarily propose another theory, but they have amassed and examined many facts that show the official theory to be impossible, to be bankrupt.

Now you claim that you don't believe the official story, so that puts you into the group of disbelievers of the official theory.

Please, make up your mind. As George Bush put it, you're either with him or against him. Please, make up your mind.

The official theory is bankrupt. Do you have another to advance?
 
Thoreau72 said:
My position is simple: if we use dictionary definitions, the events of the day absolutely were a conspiracy. That is, more than one person were involved in planning and executing the events of the day. The planning was the conspiracy, and the overt acts were the events of the day. They fulfilled the conspiracy.

If you accept those definitions, we are on the same boat.

Then the question becomes "who were the conspirators"?

The official conspiracy says it was 19 arabs with box cutters being ordered and controlled by Osama. Sadly, there are no facts or evidence to support that theory. You "don't follow all the details" as you say, but I and others have very much followed all the details. And it's been 18 years worth of following and examining the details.

The official theory does not pass muster, at all. That's why there are pilots, lawyers, architects and engineers, veterans and so many other groups who do not buy into that theory. They don't necessarily propose another theory, but they have amassed and examined many facts that show the official theory to be impossible, to be bankrupt.

Now you claim that you don't believe the official story, so that puts you into the group of disbelievers of the official theory.

Please, make up your mind. As George Bush put it, you're either with him or against him. Please, make up your mind.

The official theory is bankrupt. Do you have another to advance?
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I never said I don't believe the official story. I said I don't trust the government. As you said, some experts in various fields think the official story is impossible. But other experts think it is possible.

Nothing like it ever happened before. So it's very hard to say whether it's possible or not.

And, as I said, if the attack had been planned by our own government, it would make no sense to have the planes.

And we know the planes were hijacked and that there were passengers. Some of the conspiracy theorists say they could not have made those phone calls. Well that's crazy. Those people had relatives who got the phone calls.
 
Good4Nothin said:
I never said I don't believe the official story. I said I don't trust the government. As you said, some experts in various fields think the official story is impossible. But other experts think it is possible.

Nothing like it ever happened before. So it's very hard to say whether it's possible or not.

And, as I said, if the attack had been planned by our own government, it would make no sense to have the planes.

And we know the planes were hijacked and that there were passengers. Some of the conspiracy theorists say they could not have made those phone calls. Well that's crazy. Those people had relatives who got the phone calls.
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Truthers avoid discussing the passengers.
 
Good4Nothin said:
I never said I don't believe the official story. I said I don't trust the government. As you said, some experts in various fields think the official story is impossible. But other experts think it is possible.

Nothing like it ever happened before. So it's very hard to say whether it's possible or not.

And, as I said, if the attack had been planned by our own government, it would make no sense to have the planes.

And we know the planes were hijacked and that there were passengers. Some of the conspiracy theorists say they could not have made those phone calls. Well that's crazy. Those people had relatives who got the phone calls.
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I do appreciate your reasonable posts.

Not just experts know the official story is impossible, but also many ordinary people know it is impossible. I have a friend who used to travel a lot on the airlines, and from his own personal experience he knew that his cell phone (1998 vintage) became inoperable on the airlines, except on the ground or at very low altitude.

If the attack was planned "by our own government" as you say, and I'm not sure it was, the more accurate description would be that it was planned by rogue agents, by traitors within our own government.

And actually, we do not know that the supposed flights were hijacked, we have been told they were hijacked, but close examination shows that there is no proof those flights were hijacked. Indeed, since day one there has been confusion as to which gates were involved in Boston.

The facts are clear--cell phones in 2001 did not work like today's cell phones. The claimed cell phone calls, upon which the entire official story is premised, were staged by rogue elements within the government. All the "relatives" were likely play actors.

Because the Bush administration refused for almost 2 years to conduct an investigation until "The Jersey Girls" forced it through political pressure, many private citizens began investigating on their own, and several started by interviewing or attempting to interview surviving relatives and family members.

One divided the surviving family members into 2 general groups: 1 was the surviving family members of those killed in the towers, also known as the Jersey Girls, widows all. 2 was the surviving family members of the passengers on the planes.

He found that Group 1 was happy to be interviewed. They returned phone calls and easily engaged in anybody trying to find out what happened that day.

Group 2 was most reluctant to be interviewed. They would not return phone calls, and otherwise would not talk.

Read between the lines.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I do appreciate your reasonable posts.

Not just experts know the official story is impossible, but also many ordinary people know it is impossible. I have a friend who used to travel a lot on the airlines, and from his own personal experience he knew that his cell phone (1998 vintage) became inoperable on the airlines, except on the ground or at very low altitude.

If the attack was planned "by our own government" as you say, and I'm not sure it was, the more accurate description would be that it was planned by rogue agents, by traitors within our own government.

And actually, we do not know that the supposed flights were hijacked, we have been told they were hijacked, but close examination shows that there is no proof those flights were hijacked. Indeed, since day one there has been confusion as to which gates were involved in Boston.

The facts are clear--cell phones in 2001 did not work like today's cell phones. The claimed cell phone calls, upon which the entire official story is premised, were staged by rogue elements within the government. All the "relatives" were likely play actors.

Because the Bush administration refused for almost 2 years to conduct an investigation until "The Jersey Girls" forced it through political pressure, many private citizens began investigating on their own, and several started by interviewing or attempting to interview surviving relatives and family members.

One divided the surviving family members into 2 general groups: 1 was the surviving family members of those killed in the towers, also known as the Jersey Girls, widows all. 2 was the surviving family members of the passengers on the planes.

He found that Group 1 was happy to be interviewed. They returned phone calls and easily engaged in anybody trying to find out what happened that day.

Group 2 was most reluctant to be interviewed. They would not return phone calls, and otherwise would not talk.

Read between the lines.
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As I said several times, there was no need for the planes if there were explosives inside the buildings.

As for cell phones, they were at very low altitude.

The relatives were not play actors. It would have been an extremely complex theatrical production, and for no reason. As I said, they could have said terrorists somehow got into the buildings and planted explosives.
 
Good4Nothin said:
As I said several times, there was no need for the planes if there were explosives inside the buildings.

As for cell phones, they were at very low altitude.

The relatives were not play actors. It would have been an extremely complex theatrical production, and for no reason. As I said, they could have said terrorists somehow got into the buildings and planted explosives.
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I noticed that he provided no links to his absurd claims.
 
It was not controlled demolition. And even if it was, so what? Terrorists could have installed the explosives. But then why the planes?

Immediately after 9/11 happened, people started blaming it on the US government, especially on G. W. Bush. They had an intense hatred for him and a need to blame someone. So they blamed the person they hated most. And of course they felt no hatred for Muslim terrorist organizations.

So I think that's how we got these convoluted conspiracy theories.
 
Good4Nothin said:
As I said several times, there was no need for the planes if there were explosives inside the buildings.

As for cell phones, they were at very low altitude.

The relatives were not play actors. It would have been an extremely complex theatrical production, and for no reason. As I said, they could have said terrorists somehow got into the buildings and planted explosives.
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You lack knowledge of facts.

If you were not involved in the planning and execution of the events of the day, how would you know what was "necessary"?

Obviously, those who planned and executed the events saw it differently that you.

One of the goals was terror. One of the goals was to frighten and terrorize the public. The idea and images of aircraft hitting the towers were very effective at achieving that goal.

Theatrical productions are not nearly as complex as you seem to think. People love to tell stories.

In reality, terrorists DID get into the buildings and plant explosives. Again, the important part for the thinking individual is the identity of those terrorists.
 
Thoreau72 said:
You lack knowledge of facts.

If you were not involved in the planning and execution of the events of the day, how would you know what was "necessary"?

Obviously, those who planned and executed the events saw it differently that you.

One of the goals was terror. One of the goals was to frighten and terrorize the public. The idea and images of aircraft hitting the towers were very effective at achieving that goal.

Theatrical productions are not nearly as complex as you seem to think. People love to tell stories.

In reality, terrorists DID get into the buildings and plant explosives. Again, the important part for the thinking individual is the identity of those terrorists.
Click to expand...

How would you know that the "planes" were necessary?
How do you know that "terror" was one of the goals? Were you involved in the planning?
 
Thoreau72 said:
You lack knowledge of facts.

If you were not involved in the planning and execution of the events of the day, how would you know what was "necessary"?

Obviously, those who planned and executed the events saw it differently that you.

One of the goals was terror. One of the goals was to frighten and terrorize the public. The idea and images of aircraft hitting the towers were very effective at achieving that goal.

Theatrical productions are not nearly as complex as you seem to think. People love to tell stories.

In reality, terrorists DID get into the buildings and plant explosives. Again, the important part for the thinking individual is the identity of those terrorists.
Click to expand...

If it were a conspiracy, they would not have bothered with planes. The more people involved, the more chance of the secret getting out. They would have kept it as simple as possible. The buildings being demolished would have been dramatic and frightening enough.

Lots of people had relatives who were on the planes. Do you really think the government somehow killed them all?

The conspiracy theories are unnecessarily complicated.

We might not have great explanations for what happened, but that's because it's hard to figure out. Nothing like it ever happened before.

The conspiracy theorists pick on every tiny detail that they think doesn't make sense.

And, as I said, the motivation is hatred for the Republicans, basically. That hatred is incredibly intense. Pretty scary. Not that I'm a Republican, but I still think the intensity of the hatred is crazy scary.
 
mike2810 said:
How would you know that the "planes" were necessary?
How do you know that "terror" was one of the goals? Were you involved in the planning?
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I know that planes were necessary because planes were used. Whoever planned this decided that planes were necessary. That, because planes were in fact used.

Same with terror Mike.

(Sarcasm here) You ask brilliant questions sir. :lamo
 
Good4Nothin said:
If it were a conspiracy, they would not have bothered with planes. The more people involved, the more chance of the secret getting out. They would have kept it as simple as possible. The buildings being demolished would have been dramatic and frightening enough.

Lots of people had relatives who were on the planes. Do you really think the government somehow killed them all?

The conspiracy theories are unnecessarily complicated.

We might not have great explanations for what happened, but that's because it's hard to figure out. Nothing like it ever happened before.

The conspiracy theorists pick on every tiny detail that they think doesn't make sense.

And, as I said, the motivation is hatred for the Republicans, basically. That hatred is incredibly intense. Pretty scary. Not that I'm a Republican, but I still think the intensity of the hatred is crazy scary.
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Would you be so kind as to offer your definition of "conspiracy?"

Do you accept definitions used in the legal profession?
 
Good4Nothin said:
Big Tech (Google, Youtube, Facebook, etc.) are controlling what information we have access to. Some information is "dangerous," so they have joined forces with the government to "protect" us.

For example, any skepticism about vaccine safety can parents afraid to have their children vaccinated.

Skepticism about AIDS/HIV drugs can cause HIV infected patients to not take them.

It's important for the government, Big Tech and Big Drug to protect us from our own stupidity. That's how they see it.
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They dont force you to use their product. They cant stop you from going to some other website than a top ranked one. People just dont want to do the work of informing themselves. Big Tech controls content on their own sites. Thats all. Use another site.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I know that planes were necessary because planes were used. Whoever planned this decided that planes were necessary. That, because planes were in fact used.

Same with terror Mike.

(Sarcasm here) You ask brilliant questions sir. :lamo
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Sarcasm here: Your analysis of the planning is brilliant.
 
jonny5 said:
They dont force you to use their product. They cant stop you from going to some other website than a top ranked one. People just dont want to do the work of informing themselves. Big Tech controls content on their own sites. Thats all. Use another site.
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Well that's silly. Most people are using them, and you know it. And most people don't know their information is being censored.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I know that planes were necessary because planes were used. Whoever planned this decided that planes were necessary. That, because planes were in fact used.

Same with terror Mike.

(Sarcasm here) You ask brilliant questions sir. :lamo
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HD spends a lot of time saying there were no planes, or different planes or drones etc but now he admits there were planes.
Basically he is using the shotgun CT method. Claim everything and anything else but the truth and hope something hits.
 
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