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Pre-civilizations spawned by time travelers?

Northern Light said:
lol well... I could accept if the Ark story was just allegorical because there is no evidence that there was a flood of those proportions. Regional floods, sure... but nothing spanning continents or the globe.
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Or that there is enough water int eh world to make such a flood.
 
Rich2018 said:
Or that there is enough water int eh world to make such a flood.
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The comet strike in 2807 B.C. put plenty of water into the atmosphere to cause torrential flooding all over the world, but no, not like Biblical proportions.
 
A documentary I recently watched indicated that man settled once he began grinding grains. Simply put, carrying all those heavy stones around was too much trouble. So, even though man was still a hunter gatherer for thousands of years after forming permanent settlements, the basics of civilization began once carrying all their stuff became too burdensome.

In history we have the following:

Africa/Middle East:
Egyptians began setting in communities as far back as 10,000 BC, originally doing so in desert oasis areas. Obviously, that makes sense. Also, inbreeding was avoided by slave trade and intermarriages with the various desert nomads. Eventually this band moved into the Nile Valley, apparently after climate change forced them out of their desert haven.

Americas:
South:Andean civilizations began along the coast of Peru roughly 3500 BC. Like the Egyptians, the Norte Chico overcame living in an arid region by settling in a river valley; earliest settlements date back to 9000 BC. Unlike Egypt, which relied on one river, the valley settled by the Chico people was one of many rivers, all of them draining the Andes.

Central: Pre-Olmec early farming cultures date back to 5000 BC. Multiple civilizations in that region followed shortly thereafter, culminating in the Aztec, which were finally destroyed by the Spanish.

North: The Folsom complex found in Wyoming seems to indicate hard, standing dwellings which date back to 9000 BC, which brings up another reason to settle: get out of the weather with permanent structures that resist wind, rain and cold.
 
calamity said:
A documentary I recently watched indicated that man settled once he began grinding grains. Simply put, carrying all those heavy stones around was too much trouble. So, even though man was still a hunter gatherer for thousands of years after forming permanent settlements, the basics of civilization began once carrying all their stuff became too burdensome.

In history we have the following:

Africa/Middle East:
Egyptians began setting in communities as far back as 10,000 BC, originally doing so in desert oasis areas. Obviously, that makes sense. Also, inbreeding was avoided by slave trade and intermarriages with the various desert nomads. Eventually this band moved into the Nile Valley, apparently after climate change forced them out of their desert haven.

Americas:
South:Andean civilizations began along the coast of Peru roughly 3500 BC. Like the Egyptians, the Norte Chico overcame living in an arid region by settling in a river valley; earliest settlements date back to 9000 BC. Unlike Egypt, which relied on one river, the valley settled by the Chico people was one of many rivers, all of them draining the Andes.

Central: Pre-Olmec early farming cultures date back to 5000 BC. Multiple civilizations in that region followed shortly thereafter, culminating in the Aztec, which were finally destroyed by the Spanish.

North: The Folsom complex found in Wyoming seems to indicate hard, standing dwellings which date back to 9000 BC, which brings up another reason to settle: get out of the weather with permanent structures that resist wind, rain and cold.
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Not only were grains the mother of Civilization, but domestication of the cow in India.
 
Rich2018 said:
Is Scientology, "I AM" and Hare Krishna wrong about what?
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I've got no problem with Ape man Father, that we evolved and that this is all there is but it strains the credibility to deny pre-civilization.

The "I AM" describes a civilization in the Sahara Desert sixty thousand years ago and says the Mahabarate which contains the Bhagavad-Gita was given to India two hundred and seventy thousand years ago (not five thousand like the Hare Krishnas believe).

They say man descended three million years ago in India and the first word they spoke was "I AM".

They say the Native Americans have been here 4.5 million years.

The Hare Krishnas write like civilization has been around millions and millions of years.

Scientology puts civilizations here hundreds of millions of years.

So what is it; space man father, Angelic Father, Father evolved earlier or again and again?

I live in a mining town and there are slag piles where there were no mine shafts.

Up in the keweenaw by copper harbor there is a ridge that was a slag pile and the lake (not Superior) was an open pit mine.

Maybe evolution occurred in its own dimension and creating a loop that all these other dimensions feed into?

Please help me figure this out.

I am not able to measure any of this with one common scale.
 
Exquisitor said:
I've got no problem with Ape man Father, that we evolved and that this is all there is but it strains the credibility to deny pre-civilization.

The "I AM" describes a civilization in the Sahara Desert sixty thousand years ago and says the Mahabarate which contains the Bhagavad-Gita was given to India two hundred and seventy thousand years ago (not five thousand like the Hare Krishnas believe).

They say man descended three million years ago in India and the first word they spoke was "I AM".

They say the Native Americans have been here 4.5 million years.

The Hare Krishnas write like civilization has been around millions and millions of years.

Scientology puts civilizations here hundreds of millions of years.

So what is it; space man father, Angelic Father, Father evolved earlier or again and again?

I live in a mining town and there are slag piles where there were no mine shafts.

Up in the keweenaw by copper harbor there is a ridge that was a slag pile and the lake (not Superior) was an open pit mine.

Maybe evolution occurred in its own dimension and creating a loop that all these other dimensions feed into?

Please help me figure this out.

I am not able to measure any of this with one common scale.
Click to expand...

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9989-timeline-human-evolution/
 
Exquisitor said:
I've got no problem with Ape man Father, that we evolved and that this is all there is but it strains the credibility to deny pre-civilization.

The "I AM" describes a civilization in the Sahara Desert sixty thousand years ago and says the Mahabarate which contains the Bhagavad-Gita was given to India two hundred and seventy thousand years ago (not five thousand like the Hare Krishnas believe).

They say man descended three million years ago in India and the first word they spoke was "I AM".

They say the Native Americans have been here 4.5 million years.

The Hare Krishnas write like civilization has been around millions and millions of years.

Scientology puts civilizations here hundreds of millions of years.

So what is it; space man father, Angelic Father, Father evolved earlier or again and again?

I live in a mining town and there are slag piles where there were no mine shafts.

Up in the keweenaw by copper harbor there is a ridge that was a slag pile and the lake (not Superior) was an open pit mine.

Maybe evolution occurred in its own dimension and creating a loop that all these other dimensions feed into?

Please help me figure this out.

I am not able to measure any of this with one common scale.
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Nobody said any of these things.
 
Exquisitor said:
Not only were grains the mother of Civilization, but domestication of the cow in India.
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That gets me thinking. Man domesticated dogs before settling into permanent residences. That's why there were dogs in the Americas--the only domestic animals on both continents. The nomads which crossed the Bering Land Bridge had dogs with them. And that is when another thought hit me.

Domesticating other animals gave Eurasians diseases. And, those diseases gave us the advantage later, when the Europeans came to America where the natives had no immunization from diseases which man surely contacted from domestic animals like pigs and chickens.

Oh...and, rats. We got a lot of diseases from rats. And, rat infestations are a unique symptom of settlements, especially wherever food is stored. Now, why pre-Colombian Native American settlements did not have a rat problem is an interesting question. Maybe they used their dogs for rodent control?
 
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calamity said:
That gets me thinking. Man domesticated dogs before settling into permanent residences. That's why there were dogs in the Americas--the only domestic animals on both continents. The nomads which crossed the Bering Land Bridge had dogs with them. And that is when another thought hit me.

Domesticating other animals gave Eurasians diseases. And, those diseases gave us the advantage later, when the Europeans came to America where the natives had no immunization from diseases which man surely contacted from domestic animals like pigs and chickens.

Oh...and, rats. We got a lot of diseases from rats. And, rat infestations are a unique symptom of settlements, especially wherever food is stored. Now, why pre-Colombian Native American settlements did not have a rat problem is an interesting question. Maybe they used their dogs for rodent control?
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The Aztecs definitely had rats- or some rodents. It’s believed that before Cortez showed up, most died from a plague like disease carried by rats and mice.

Cocoliztli epidemics - Wikipedia
 
Threegoofs said:
The Aztecs definitely had rats- or some rodents. It’s believed that before Cortez showed up, most died from a plague like disease carried by rats and mice.

Cocoliztli epidemics - Wikipedia
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It seems to be a mouse. And, the plague seems to coincide with the Spanish arrival in Meso-America.
 
calamity said:
It seems to be a mouse. And, the plague seems to coincide with the Spanish arrival in Meso-America.
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Oh, no question. The mortality rate was extremely high from disease before the Spanish even discovered any of the new world civilizations.

But the rodents weren’t vectors of disease before that, because new world civilizations just didn’t have the same types of diseases that old world civilizations did. They had very few domesticated animal species, and the ones they had don’t really have endemic diseases that transfer to humans (like dogs, guinea pigs, llamas) and those that may have done it were only a minor part of their diet (turkeys, ducks).
 
Deuce said:
Which part?
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calamity said:
That gets me thinking. Man domesticated dogs before settling into permanent residences. That's why there were dogs in the Americas--the only domestic animals on both continents. The nomads which crossed the Bering Land Bridge had dogs with them. And that is when another thought hit me.

Domesticating other animals gave Eurasians diseases. And, those diseases gave us the advantage later, when the Europeans came to America where the natives had no immunization from diseases which man surely contacted from domestic animals like pigs and chickens.

Oh...and, rats. We got a lot of diseases from rats. And, rat infestations are a unique symptom of settlements, especially wherever food is stored. Now, why pre-Colombian Native American settlements did not have a rat problem is an interesting question. Maybe they used their dogs for rodent control?
Click to expand...

Twelve thousand years ago the North Pole was over Lake Michigan and when Atlantis sank ten thousand years ago it had moved up the Saint Lawrence.

Do you think the old race died out after Atlantis sank?
 
Deuce said:
Not relevant to my counter-argument. I'll spell it out for you, since my sarcasm was too much for some to pierce:

There's a massive, constant input of energy into the earth. Thermodynamics is not violated.
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And a large moon to stir it all up.
 
Exquisitor said:
Twelve thousand years ago the North Pole was over Lake Michigan and when Atlantis sank ten thousand years ago it had moved up the Saint Lawrence.

Do you think the old race died out after Atlantis sank?
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I'm sure a lot of islands "sank" when all that ice melted.
 
calamity said:
Basically speaking pre-civilization began when a small community of hunter gatherers decided to stay in one place rather than continue being nomadic. It wasn't easy, but staying put and building permanent shelter had its advantages. Eventually someone figured out how to collect seeds and grow crop. Probably the first guy who made the connection between water and plant growth. After that, the rest is, how they say, history.
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Actually, we first settled down in river deltas.

The sea provided massive amounts of easily accessed food.

Agriculture was "casually" practiced by hunter gatherers for quite a while before we settled down around 12,000 years ago. They recognized that fruit grew where the latrines were between visits to qn area. Especially near a water source. So they helped it along.

Not being contrary. This is an area of particular interest ffor me.

My current theory is that all of our civilization-level problems throughout "history" are the result of Maladaptations to the Sedentary Lifestyle.

When we started growing food and staying in one place it wasn't too long before pests, accidents and human behavior required that the food be "locked up" and doled out.

This created the concept of labor/wages AND the manager class. All enforced by armed men.

Those armed men made it possible for that management class and the leaders they served to claim more and more of what everybody else produced.

And this pattern of behavior has led to every societal collapse or revolution in history.
 
Davey said:
Why is it people are so quick to believe in outer space goblins, just because a bunch of stories are told about it? Yet there are at least 295 "Legends" written all over the world, in caves from centuries ago, independently describing a Man, and his family of eight on a giant boat with a bunch of animals aboard, while the whole earth is covered under water?
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You got a link?

Because I have heard that there are other flood myths but not with Noah's family and the animals.
 
Northern Light said:
Because the statistical probability of aliens existing and having visited Earth is still higher than the existence of the Biblical flood.
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I've heard a couple of variants of why there are flood myths outside of the " Biblical" area.

One is that an inland sea was behind a small land dam that broke and flooded the whole Mediterranean area long ago. Prior to the bible stories. (Most of which have analogues in earlier cultures.)

Another is that an asteroid crashed into an ocean so.severe and pumped millions of gallons of water into the atmosphere and it rained for a long time and caused flooding
 
Can anyone name a civilization that did not exist next to a river that floods that has a flood story?
 
What if...? said:
Actually, we first settled down in river deltas.

The sea provided massive amounts of easily accessed food.

Agriculture was "casually" practiced by hunter gatherers for quite a while before we settled down around 12,000 years ago. They recognized that fruit grew where the latrines were between visits to qn area. Especially near a water source. So they helped it along.

Not being contrary. This is an area of particular interest ffor me.

My current theory is that all of our civilization-level problems throughout "history" are the result of Maladaptations to the Sedentary Lifestyle.

When we started growing food and staying in one place it wasn't too long before pests, accidents and human behavior required that the food be "locked up" and doled out.

This created the concept of labor/wages AND the manager class. All enforced by armed men.

Those armed men made it possible for that management class and the leaders they served to claim more and more of what everybody else produced.

And this pattern of behavior has led to every societal collapse or revolution in history.
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Sure. But, the trade-off was longevity, infant survival, and overcoming the ravages of nature. Settled man had a better chance to live through a storm, for example. However, nomads could survive droughts and other long term climate change by simply moving on to another location.

Settlements do tend to over-breed, and then strip away the resources of their nearby environment. Also, the whole concept of private property or even tribal property causes strife. That is why I liked your idea on the ownership and management class versus the plebes; which has definitely a problem for thousands of years.
 
Quag said:
Can anyone name a civilization that did not exist next to a river that floods that has a flood story?
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I could not find one in Egypt, but surely they must have had one. And, it probably involved a boat.
 
What if...? said:
I've heard a couple of variants of why there are flood myths outside of the " Biblical" area.

One is that an inland sea was behind a small land dam that broke and flooded the whole Mediterranean area long ago. Prior to the bible stories. (Most of which have analogues in earlier cultures.)

Another is that an asteroid crashed into an ocean so.severe and pumped millions of gallons of water into the atmosphere and it rained for a long time and caused flooding
Click to expand...

A comet did hit the Indian Ocean about 2807 BC it was three miles wide and left an eighteen mile wide crater.

Everybody wished they had an Ark so they wrote stories about it.
 
Exquisitor said:
A comet did hit the Indian Ocean about 2807 BC it was three miles wide and left an eighteen mile wide crater.

Everybody wished they had an Ark so they wrote stories about it.
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Everybody? Even the ones who couldn't write?
 
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