• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

[W:57: 1585]Evidence that 9/11 was an inside job.

Garrycan can post all he wants about Skilling, Robertson, ARUP

Thank you - I'll keep that post to remember you by every time I do. Fair thee well Gamelon, and here's a poem for you in response to your KNIFE/MURDER analogy.

Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an' chase thee,
Wi' murd'ring pattle!
 
Thank you - I'll keep that post to remember you by every time I do. Fair thee well Gamelon, and here's a poem for you in response to your KNIFE/MURDER analogy.

Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an' chase thee,
Wi' murd'ring pattle!

You still have to present your CD theory, timorous beastie. And you couldn't even get his name right.
 
You still have to present your CD theory, timorous beastie. And you couldn't even get his name right.

Do you mean for the towers or for WTC7 ?
 
I am interested in reading Gerry's understanding of the initiation of each of the twin towers... as well as if he accepts what has been called ROOSD... and the same for 7wtc. I think understanding the structural schemes is important... as I believe they will dictate so some extent how the building collapses... Yet I am not convinced that the level of detail he pursues helps to understand the mechanisms and processes of the progressive collapse from static to collapsed.
 
I am interested in reading Gerry's understanding of the initiation of each of the twin towers... as well as if he accepts what has been called ROOSD... and the same for 7wtc. I think understanding the structural schemes is important... as I believe they will dictate so some extent how the building collapses... Yet I am not convinced that the level of detail he pursues helps to understand the mechanisms and processes of the progressive collapse from static to collapsed.

Thank you Sander.

I think you're pretty much aware of my views on WTC7 from the videos we released years ago.
Haven't looked at the South Tower so much yet. But I think the North tower initiated in the SW of the core, and the observable pull in at the perimeters is visually the initial movement that happens as a result.

On the S face, before the collapse as the bowing became noticable, it can be seen to extend right into the 2 way zone at the SW corner perimeter, to within a column or 2 of the corner. For that corner to be pulled like that requires the floor trusses to move, even if hypothetically it were by way of being forced back by the bowing columns. The point is that they DID move, although we cannot see them.

For those to be pulled in the manner observed would take not a sagging but a direct pull from at least the SW core corner dropping, or perhaps even just a failure of the slanted pipe connection at the corner of the core. And if that happened or the core column itself dropped, or even moved because of the pipe failing, the load would be handed off eventually to the hat truss, which could initiate a partial failure higher up around 107 that could potentially cause the (slight) antenna drop pre collapse.

The other point is that even if the floor trusses in the SW 2 way zone sagged, they would pull on the transfer truss and the perimeters. The perimeters would survive that battle every time without flinching. So I think AT LEAST the whole floor failed in the SW corner, initiating the collapse by way of the hat truss, failing the antenna and then overloading rapidly from there.

I am not saying that this scenario even hints at CD, or fire for that matter. But it does seem like a viable failure mode that would accomodate the observations. It does need a bit more detail to it, but IMO it fits the observations better than anything else I have heard for the initiation.

Feel free to rip it to shreds.
 
No... I am not aware of your explanation for the 7wtc collapse. Perhaps you could link to it.

I suspect the facade failure in 1 wtc was likely not caused by load redistribution as the main driver. There may have been some.

My hunch is that the floor plates pulled at the facade when their inside support at the core failed. Not sure how they failed... the pipes, the belt girder... the stub outs supporting the belt girder. I doubt it was failures (buckling) of the perimeter core columns... though this is possible if they saw too much redistributed loading.

As you may know I believe the structural integrity of the core was being "hollowed out" over time. This could lead to the dropping of the antenna... the overloading of the perimeter columns of the core. Without the bracing the core lost its stiffness and was more subject to buckling. I also believe that at some "point of no return" the failure rapidly spread and floor plates plunged pulling at the facade. But I don't understand the lateral movement of all the facades. Could the plunging core side of the OOS slabs pull such that the gross movement of the top block was in a single direction? Or did it mean loss of lateral support and then the facade buckled more than it was driven by displacement? The release moment is too complex for me to wrap my mind around at this point.
 
No... I am not aware of your explanation for the 7wtc collapse. Perhaps you could link to it.
keep in mind that these were produced 6 years ago and obviously the argument has been developed since. This is the 4th video we did and probably the best summary. The narration is a little easier on the ears than my accent also !
YouTube

I suspect the facade failure in 1 wtc was likely not caused by load redistribution as the main driver. There may have been some.
There has to have been some yes.

My hunch is that the floor plates pulled at the facade when their inside support at the core failed. Not sure how they failed... the pipes, the belt girder... the stub outs supporting the belt girder. I doubt it was failures (buckling) of the perimeter core columns... though this is possible if they saw too much redistributed loading.
That's kind of what I said above. We know the floor moved because the bowing was observed, and perhaps the belt girder around the core failed, or flexed somewhat with the distortion of the floor. The construction joints in the floor were also very susceptible to shear which may have aided progression.

As you may know I believe the structural integrity of the core was being "hollowed out" over time. This could lead to the dropping of the antenna... the overloading of the perimeter columns of the core. Without the bracing the core lost its stiffness and was more subject to buckling.
The core may have been in tension due to thermal expansion especially in the bracing, and if the belt girder failed that tension would be relieved at the corner around cores 1001-1002 just outside the footprint of the main hat truss above.

I also believe that at some "point of no return" the failure rapidly spread and floor plates plunged pulling at the facade. But I don't understand the lateral movement of all the facades.
With the North face, it would be natural for any core failure to spread initially to the one way zone, which the footprint of the hat truss more or less aligns with on the long span faces. This would push toward the corners from the centre, where the antenna load is concentrated as we saw in the D/C ratio for the upper perimeters at the centre of the long span face.

Could the plunging core side of the OOS slabs pull such that the gross movement of the top block was in a single direction?
Not initially no, but once a failure had begun to progress, by whatever means, the failure would redistribute in the same way as any other tolerable overstress would have been balanced in the structural system.

Or did it mean loss of lateral support and then the facade buckled more than it was driven by displacement?
I believe there still has to be a misalignment in the core (as I think you've mentioned yourself in the past) It may be that the core corners were vulnerable to damage from a floor failure that extended to the belt truss
.
The release moment is too complex for me to wrap my mind around at this point.
It's certainly difficult to imagine how fire can do it, even with the damage accounted for. But I think the way to analyse it is not to start with a preconception of the cause being fire/damage or CD, but to look at the failure and try to better understand it by attributing whatever individual areas of failure become apparent to just failure, rather than a cause at this stage.

Certainly the NIST hypothesis can, at this point be disregarded.

ADD The videos were actually produced about 7-8 years ago. These were reuploads. Time flies when you're having fun eh!
 
...
.

It's certainly difficult to imagine how fire can do it, even with the damage accounted for. But I think the way to analyse it is not to start with a preconception of the cause being fire/damage or CD, but to look at the failure and try to better understand it by attributing whatever individual areas of failure become apparent to just failure, rather than a cause at this stage.

Certainly the NIST hypothesis can, at this point be disregarded.

Dismissing fire out of hand as you do is showing a failure to understand what fire DOES to steel frames. Heated steel has different properties and performance characteristics than room temp steel. Same applies for connections. If members of the frame are "moving" from expansion, shrinking, twisting, bending, sagging... the frame is not performing as a composite structure is designed to.

Just the fact that structural steel used in buildings is required to have 1, 3 or 3 hrs of fire proofing, and many have sprinklers for cooling and fire suppression MEANS that it is a given FACT that heated structural steel is dangerous.

I believe the towers were began built without fire proofing and it was added later in construction because of REAL concerns. We know that the sprinkler system failed almost immediately after the plane hit... severing the riser rendering the system ineffective. There may or may not have been fireproofing scraped off of steel from the plane damage. And it's entirely possible that the fire protection was no match for the fires.

In any case the fires CHANGED the steel and the failures were MECHANICAL... CAUSED by fire.
 
Dismissing fire out of hand as you do is showing a failure to understand what fire DOES to steel frames. Heated steel has different properties and performance characteristics than room temp steel. Same applies for connections. If members of the frame are "moving" from expansion, shrinking, twisting, bending, sagging... the frame is not performing as a composite structure is designed to.

Just the fact that structural steel used in buildings is required to have 1, 3 or 3 hrs of fire proofing, and many have sprinklers for cooling and fire suppression MEANS that it is a given FACT that heated structural steel is dangerous.

I believe the towers were began built without fire proofing and it was added later in construction because of REAL concerns. We know that the sprinkler system failed almost immediately after the plane hit... severing the riser rendering the system ineffective. There may or may not have been fireproofing scraped off of steel from the plane damage. And it's entirely possible that the fire protection was no match for the fires.

In any case the fires CHANGED the steel and the failures were MECHANICAL... CAUSED by fire.

Why is it that steel has such poor thermal conductivity? Is that relevant to what you've just claimed?

Which Metals Conduct Heat Best? | Metal Supermarkets - Steel, Aluminum, Stainless, Hot-Rolled, Cold-Rolled, Alloy, Carbon, Galvanized, Brass, Bronze, Copper
 
Dismissing fire out of hand as you do is showing a failure to understand what fire DOES to steel frames.

It's difficult to imagine fire doing what I am suggesting. And what I am saying doesn't point more to fire or CD.

If it wasn't difficult to imagine how fire could do this then I am sure you would have told me how it had done it by now.
 
Sander. You didn't read what I typed.

The core may have been in tension due to thermal expansion especially in the bracing, and if the belt girder failed that tension would be relieved at the corner around cores 1001-1002 just outside the footprint of the main hat truss above.

Dismissing fire out of hand as you do is showing a failure to understand what fire DOES to steel frames. Heated steel has different properties and performance characteristics than room temp steel. Same applies for connections. If members of the frame are "moving" from expansion, shrinking, twisting, bending, sagging... the frame is not performing as a composite structure is designed to................................In any case the fires CHANGED the steel and the failures were MECHANICAL... CAUSED by fire.
 
It's difficult to imagine fire doing what I am suggesting. And what I am saying doesn't point more to fire or CD.

If it wasn't difficult to imagine how fire could do this then I am sure you would have told me how it had done it by now.

Why do you never mention the two huge planes full of aviation fuel?
 
DIn any case the fires CHANGED the steel and the failures were MECHANICAL... CAUSED by fire.

Okay. If the long span beams shown in black were to sag, they would exert a pull on the yellow transfer truss as well as the much stiffer perimeters, and in turn stress the connection at the green circle.

NEB.jpg

Isn't that what would happen if the floor trusses sagged ?
 
Okay. If the long span beams shown in black were to sag, they would exert a pull on the yellow transfer truss as well as the much stiffer perimeters, and in turn stress the connection at the green circle.

View attachment 67258445

Isn't that what would happen if the floor trusses sagged ?

Are you a no-planer?
 
Back
Top Bottom