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Las Vegas Shooting - Evidence of shooter on the ground

Thoreau72 said:
I'm not sure at all of your personal experience with weapons Mike, in the military or civilian.

I qualified US Army style with 3 rifles and one pistol, and I've fired many other private weapons in the "assault weapon" category. From the military experience, I know it's really tough beyond 200 yards, and that was during the day. Can't imagine it at night at the maximum range of a standard weapon firing bump-stock (we're told).

The uninitiated might not fully appreciate the skills and luck required. I get the fish in a barrel analogy, but the barrel was about 400 yards away, meaning that the round is dropping pretty good depending upon the round fired which we haven't even been told yet, and it was night. And all I've seen in the room so far is about 20 rounds.

This story is falling apart about as quickly as Pulse and San Bernardino did. Will anybody be able to rescue it, or is credulousness the only thing to keep the public on it?
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I have enough experience with weapons and have friends who are avid gun people. I fully understand bullet trajectory. You must also know that there is a great deal of information on the net regarding uphill/downhill shooting from an elevated position. So I disagree with you. It would not take a great deal of skill to hit people in the crowd.

It is not surprising that you try to bring up my experience. It is not surprising you are very skeptical. When are you going to claim a "false flag"?:mrgreen:
 
Thoreau72 said:
I'm not sure at all of your personal experience with weapons Mike, in the military or civilian.

I qualified US Army style with 3 rifles and one pistol, and I've fired many other private weapons in the "assault weapon" category. From the military experience, I know it's really tough beyond 200 yards, and that was during the day. Can't imagine it at night at the maximum range of a standard weapon firing bump-stock (we're told).

The uninitiated might not fully appreciate the skills and luck required. I get the fish in a barrel analogy, but the barrel was about 400 yards away, meaning that the round is dropping pretty good depending upon the round fired which we haven't even been told yet, and it was night. And all I've seen in the room so far is about 20 rounds.

This story is falling apart about as quickly as Pulse and San Bernardino did. Will anybody be able to rescue it, or is credulousness the only thing to keep the public on it?
Click to expand...

You haven't seen both rooms, nor have you seen all that was in both rooms. You only saw a few pictures that were leaked, then you extrapolated without having all the data.
 
beefheart said:
You haven't seen both rooms, nor have you seen all that was in both rooms. You only saw a few pictures that were leaked, then you extrapolated without having all the data.
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I'm in touch enough to COMPLETELY understand that there is far more I DO NOT KNOW, than what I do know. Further, I totally understand that all I know about Vegas is what I've been told by the mainstream media.

Are you that honest with yourself?
 
Thoreau72 said:
I'm in touch enough to COMPLETELY understand that there is far more I DO NOT KNOW, than what I do know. Further, I totally understand that all I know about Vegas is what I've been told by the mainstream media.

Are you that honest with yourself?
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But....you are already of the mindset that there must be some conspiracy theory, and you are making all kinds of extrapolations and conclusions without having enough data.

That is what conspiracy theorists do, they use their preconceived bias as the starting point, then fall down the rabbit hole of all the crazy possibilities first...instead of waiting and getting actual data.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I'm in touch enough to COMPLETELY understand that there is far more I DO NOT KNOW, than what I do know. Further, I totally understand that all I know about Vegas is what I've been told by the mainstream media.

Are you that honest with yourself?
Click to expand...

Actually, you are relying on non mainstream media (conspiracy websites) to fill your head with evidence free information that fits your preconceived narrative.
 
mike2810 said:
I have enough experience with weapons and have friends who are avid gun people. I fully understand bullet trajectory. You must also know that there is a great deal of information on the net regarding uphill/downhill shooting from an elevated position. So I disagree with you. It would not take a great deal of skill to hit people in the crowd.

It is not surprising that you try to bring up my experience. It is not surprising you are very skeptical. When are you going to claim a "false flag"?:mrgreen:
Click to expand...

It was no offense Mike. I was simply curious about your firearm experience after your use of the word "shrapnel" in another post.

As to the skill required or displayed by the shooter(s), we won't be able to fully judge that until the cops give us, and hopefully show us in context, the brass from however many rounds were finally fired. That is the only way we can determine his efficiency, rounds fired compared to casualties brought from those rounds. A close examination of fatalities and wounds would also be in order. I suspect that information will not be made public, so all we have right now is 70 dead and 500 wounded. We need at least 570 empty shells, assuming he was firing at 100% efficiency.

My gun dealer friend says that the bump stocks are cool, but really degrade accuracy. Weapons on full-auto are not particularly accurate anyway.
 
Thoreau72 said:
It was no offense Mike. I was simply curious about your firearm experience after your use of the word "shrapnel" in another post.

As to the skill required or displayed by the shooter(s), we won't be able to fully judge that until the cops give us, and hopefully show us in context, the brass from however many rounds were finally fired. That is the only way we can determine his efficiency, rounds fired compared to casualties brought from those rounds. A close examination of fatalities and wounds would also be in order. I suspect that information will not be made public, so all we have right now is 70 dead and 500 wounded. We need at least 570 empty shells, assuming he was firing at 100% efficiency.

My gun dealer friend says that the bump stocks are cool, but really degrade accuracy. Weapons on full-auto are not particularly accurate anyway.
Click to expand...

58 dead, not 70. And not all of the injured were necessarily shot. Some of them got trampled. There's also the possibility that 1 bullet could injure multiple people. Or in other words, Henry doesn't know what he's talking about again.
 
Thoreau72 said:
It was no offense Mike. I was simply curious about your firearm experience after your use of the word "shrapnel" in another post.

As to the skill required or displayed by the shooter(s), we won't be able to fully judge that until the cops give us, and hopefully show us in context, the brass from however many rounds were finally fired. That is the only way we can determine his efficiency, rounds fired compared to casualties brought from those rounds. A close examination of fatalities and wounds would also be in order. I suspect that information will not be made public, so all we have right now is 70 dead and 500 wounded. We need at least 570 empty shells, assuming he was firing at 100% efficiency.

My gun dealer friend says that the bump stocks are cool, but really degrade accuracy. Weapons on full-auto are not particularly accurate anyway.
Click to expand...

I'm not buying any CT's on this. Yet. However, I have asked from the beginning about the number of rounds fired. He was at it for ~10 minutes. How many rounds??? How many will a bump stock allow per second?

Accuracy? You don't need it since what he was doing was shooting at 20 thousand fish in a barrel. Point at the middle, drain the mag and grab another...
 
volsrock said:
Do u know for a fact there was not a second shooter?
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All reports I have seen claim one shooter with certainty.

I think it is real important not to try to squeeze out some conspiracy at this time without the facts.

I do think those investigating this case know more than what they are willing to share at this time.

I know patience isn't a virtue that many possess, but damn it, today marks just one week since the tragedy unfolded. Find some patience please.
 
505 said:
58 dead, not 70. And not all of the injured were necessarily shot. Some of them got trampled. There's also the possibility that 1 bullet could injure multiple people. Or in other words, Henry doesn't know what he's talking about again.
Click to expand...

Possibility? Yessir, there are many possibilities, including the chance that some of those responding to the ad for Crowds On Demand were also involved in Pulse or other such events catered by COD

What we would like is certainty, not possibility. The way the story is unwinding, certainty does not seem to exist.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
I'm not buying any CT's on this. Yet. However, I have asked from the beginning about the number of rounds fired. He was at it for ~10 minutes. How many rounds??? How many will a bump stock allow per second?

Accuracy? You don't need it since what he was doing was shooting at 20 thousand fish in a barrel. Point at the middle, drain the mag and grab another...
Click to expand...

Well actually you do need some measure of accuracy. Ultimately it depends upon how many rounds he fired, and that could be corroborated with pictures of those spent casings. So far, and my knowledge is incomplete, we have 20 rounds only, and cops with sealed lips.

So I'm still waiting. 100% efficiency for the shooter would mean 550 rounds. So far we have 20 or so, and cops with sealed lips, apparently. Half that efficiency, firing at night at maximum range for the probable but unnamed weapon, would yield 1100 empty casings, and half that would give 2000 or so.

Another thing missing so far is any pictures/videos of those rounds that missed a target but hit the ground, like I see when I fire a round into the ground at that angle, and which they even show in movies.

All that shooting, and not a single picture of an errant round or ricochet. I'm sure in another few months the authorities will have all that for us.
 
It is interesting how some want all the information now from an investigation. When the investigation does not meet the demand for information they speculate that the authorities must be hiding something or the fix is in.

That won't stop posters or sources they use to speculate. Theme is clear. The "authorities" are up to something and it is not good.

Other than some fuzzy vid, no other evidence presented for a on the ground shooter. If there was one, why no one has come forward and made the claim they saw a shooter in the crowd?
 
mike2810 said:
It is interesting how some want all the information now from an investigation. When the investigation does not meet the demand for information they speculate that the authorities must be hiding something or the fix is in.

That won't stop posters or sources they use to speculate. Theme is clear. The "authorities" are up to something and it is not good.

Other than some fuzzy vid, no other evidence presented for a on the ground shooter. If there was one, why no one has come forward and made the claim they saw a shooter in the crowd?
Click to expand...

The crowd was part of the false flag operation.
 
Sheeeesh, now the cops are saying the killer shot a guard (and shot some 200 rounds into the hallway) BEFORE going on to fire a zillion rounds and kill 59 and wound over 500.

"A police spokesperson did not immediately respond to several follow-up questions from the Los Angeles Times seeking clarification on the new timeline.

Charles "Sid" Heal, a retired Los Angeles County sheriff's commander and tactical expert, said the new timeline “changes the whole perspective of the shooting."

Heal said that if police had known immediately that a guard had been shot, they would have rushed the room while the gunman was still firing.

He said it seemed to signal a breakdown in communication.

“It doesn't say much for hotel security,” Heal said.

After Campos was shot, a maintenance worker appeared on the 32nd floor and “Campos prevented him from receiving any injuries,” Lombardo said."

Las Vegas gunman shot security guard a full six minutes before opening fire on concertgoers, police reveal - LA Times
 
John Prewett said:
Sheeeesh, now the cops are saying the killer shot a guard (and shot some 200 rounds into the hallway) BEFORE going on to fire a zillion rounds and kill 59 and wound over 500.

"A police spokesperson did not immediately respond to several follow-up questions from the Los Angeles Times seeking clarification on the new timeline.

Charles "Sid" Heal, a retired Los Angeles County sheriff's commander and tactical expert, said the new timeline “changes the whole perspective of the shooting."

Heal said that if police had known immediately that a guard had been shot, they would have rushed the room while the gunman was still firing.

He said it seemed to signal a breakdown in communication.

“It doesn't say much for hotel security,” Heal said.

After Campos was shot, a maintenance worker appeared on the 32nd floor and “Campos prevented him from receiving any injuries,” Lombardo said."

Las Vegas gunman shot security guard a full six minutes before opening fire on concertgoers, police reveal - LA Times
Click to expand...

The operative word is "if". Did you watch 60 minutes with the first LEO on scene and entered the shooters room?
 
John Prewett said:
Sheeeesh, now the cops are saying the killer shot a guard (and shot some 200 rounds into the hallway) BEFORE going on to fire a zillion rounds and kill 59 and wound over 500.

"A police spokesperson did not immediately respond to several follow-up questions from the Los Angeles Times seeking clarification on the new timeline.

Charles "Sid" Heal, a retired Los Angeles County sheriff's commander and tactical expert, said the new timeline “changes the whole perspective of the shooting."

Heal said that if police had known immediately that a guard had been shot, they would have rushed the room while the gunman was still firing.

He said it seemed to signal a breakdown in communication.

“It doesn't say much for hotel security,” Heal said.

After Campos was shot, a maintenance worker appeared on the 32nd floor and “Campos prevented him from receiving any injuries,” Lombardo said."

Las Vegas gunman shot security guard a full six minutes before opening fire on concertgoers, police reveal - LA Times
Click to expand...

Yes, I heard that on the TV news last night. Terrific police work, it took them just over a week to discover 200 rounds had been fired, and a man killed, in the hotel hallway. :mrgreen:

I'm wondering if LVPD or anybody else was conducting a "training exercise" lately?
 
Thoreau72 said:
I'm not sure at all of your personal experience with weapons Mike, in the military or civilian.

I qualified US Army style with 3 rifles and one pistol, and I've fired many other private weapons in the "assault weapon" category. From the military experience, I know it's really tough beyond 200 yards, and that was during the day. Can't imagine it at night at the maximum range of a standard weapon firing bump-stock (we're told).

The uninitiated might not fully appreciate the skills and luck required. I get the fish in a barrel analogy, but the barrel was about 400 yards away, meaning that the round is dropping pretty good depending upon the round fired which we haven't even been told yet, and it was night. And all I've seen in the room so far is about 20 rounds.

This story is falling apart about as quickly as Pulse and San Bernardino did. Will anybody be able to rescue it, or is credulousness the only thing to keep the public on it?
Click to expand...

Well there is your problem. You think shooting past 200 meters is really tough it appears you shooting knowledge is about as in-depth as your flying skills. In other words nonexistent.
 
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