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PNAC/Rebuilding America's Defenses and 9/11

nevermind_me said:
False flag operations are deceptive and done for personal or political gains. Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Germans used what was known as the Reichstag fire for political gains. Hitler even went on to say that, “Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death.”
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I know. Truthers are keen on reminding us every time. Northwoods, Reichstag, yep yep. It somehow adds context to the otherwise wildly exaggerated claims.
 
Fiddytree said:
Yes, don't read the rest of the document to get the actual context for the writing, just read the quote after being barraged with an unaccepted theory. That will surely send the reader into believing something mischievous rather than anything else, however mundane.
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As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. With the pictures that have been available for many years regarding the entire WTC complex, especially buildings 3, 4, 5 & 6, not many words are needed.

Those buildings were destroyed by special weapons, or so it appears. Magnificent fire damage from gravity and jetfuel?

No way.
 
I list northwoods simply to prove a very important point; that the united states government is, and has been willing, to sacrifice American citizens for the benefit of the united states government. I could list a host of other incedents, but I doubt you'll approve of them. By and by, since you seem familiar with the plan...who all was involved in operation Northwoods? Anyone relevant?
 
Henry David said:
As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. With the pictures that have been available for many years regarding the entire WTC complex, especially buildings 3, 4, 5 & 6, not many words are needed.

Those buildings were destroyed by special weapons, or so it appears. Magnificent fire damage from gravity and jetfuel?

No way.
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I don't focus on the science. Science was never my thing, I won't even bother pretending to know science (as most Truthers are attempting to do). I study American political intellectual history. Your conspiracy hinges upon certain people committing the act. After a small amount of time, it just doesn't make much sense, just as other conspiracies related to those individuals. I admit, it was initially what I found sexy about researching it. It sounded spooky, but the further along I read, the more it became mundane. I'm not saying that in its mundane reality I didn't find it interesting. On the contrary, it was far more interesting than what Truthers wanted to believe. It just didn't fit into their incredibly simplistic interpretation at all. By trying to explain away everything, you guys have gutted the essence of it all, which is rather ironic considering you want to "blow the lid" on it all.

I started researching neoconservatives within a couple of years of 9/11 and had read most of the significant literature from its inception to about now, starting from the foreign policy area, but then branching out into its intellectual roots and domestic policy. It became one of the central focuses of my historical background, though I have now moved onto other subjects of study for graduate work.
 
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KevinKohler said:
I list northwoods simply to prove a very important point; that the united states government is, and has been willing, to sacrifice American citizens for the benefit of the united states government. I could list a host of other incedents, but I doubt you'll approve of them. By and by, since you seem familiar with the plan...who all was involved in operation Northwoods? Anyone relevant?
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But by delivering rather weak analysis of the men who supposedly perpetrated 9/11, you have to supplant it with other memos from decades in the past, which hardly relate. It's a quick rush to judgment no better than what Glenn Beck has been famous for.
 
nevermind_me said:
@I_Gaze_At_The_Blue I did not read your full post but one thing stood out to me. You said WTC7 took 18 seconds to fall? 18 SECONDS!? I recommend you see the video and count the seconds yourself. Remember, seconds go 1-Mississippi, 2-Mississippi, etc.

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And this is supposed to prove WHAT ... EXACTLY ???

What do you "think" was the time it took to fall and HOW does this prove it ... explain please ???

nevermind_me said:
Believe me, the mysterious free-fall collapse of WTC7 is what drew me into the conspiracy theories.
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WTC7 did NOT fall at freefall ... tell me WHY you think it did ... did you "time" it ???

nevermind_me said:
You mean to tell me flying debris caused a fire so intense that it melted or weakened the steel of a 47 story building?
Have you not seen the photos of WTC Buildings 3-6 and how badly damaged they were, yet, their structures were still standing?
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Yes ... wee hint, buildings are NOT all the same ... nor behave the same.

nevermind_me said:
I guess we should also ignore the fact that there was a plan for a "Pearl Harbor" like attack on ourselves laid out in a document written a full year before that attack. How do skeptics explain that?
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Yes, we should ignore it ... for it was NOT a plan ... but a blue-sky thinking document that was NEVER any sort of actual policy or proposal.

Way to go to over-state it !!!
 
I_Gaze_At_The_Blue said:
And this is supposed to prove WHAT ... EXACTLY ???

What do you "think" was the time it took to fall and HOW does this prove it ... explain please ???



WTC7 did NOT fall at freefall ... tell me WHY you think it did ... did you "time" it ???



Yes ... wee hint, buildings are NOT all the same ... nor behave the same.



Yes, we should ignore it ... for it was NOT a plan ... but a blue-sky thinking document that was NEVER any sort of actual policy or proposal.

Way to go to over-state it !!!
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Actually, I would ignore it because the line itself was rather unimportant.
 
Fiddytree said:
I don't focus on the science. Science was never my thing, I won't even bother pretending to know science (as most Truthers are attempting to do). I study American political intellectual history. Your conspiracy hinges upon certain people committing the act. After a small amount of time, it just doesn't make much sense, just as other conspiracies related to those individuals. I admit, it was initially what I found sexy about researching it. It sounded spooky, but the further along I read, the more it became mundane. I'm not saying that in its mundane reality I didn't find it interesting. On the contrary, it was far more interesting than what Truthers wanted to believe. It just didn't fit into their incredibly simplistic interpretation at all. By trying to explain away everything, you guys have gutted the essence of it all, which is rather ironic considering you want to "blow the lid" on it all.

I started researching neoconservatives within a couple of years of 9/11 and had read most of the significant literature from its inception to about now, starting from the foreign policy area, but then branching out into its intellectual roots and domestic policy. It became one of the central focuses of my historical background, though I have now moved onto other subjects of study for graduate work.
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Mine is not really a conspiracy theory.

Yes, I do have some theories, but they are pure speculation on my part, and I always present them as such.

Mine is the simple knowledge that the official narrative is a Grand Illusion--a Bright & Shining Lie, to borrow from the Pentagon Papers days... :lol:
 
Henry David said:
Mine is not really a conspiracy theory.

Yes, I do have some theories, but they are pure speculation on my part, and I always present them as such.

Mine is the simple knowledge that the official narrative is a Grand Illusion--a Bright & Shining Lie, to borrow from the Pentagon Papers days... :lol:
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and you are entitled to your speculation and opinion. I would think you would place the last statement in that catagory.:lol:
 
I_Gaze_At_The_Blue said:
Simple ineptitude and incompetence is NOT deliberate will.



Nope ... wrong ... sorry.

No such "project" took place ... there WAS a military drill called Vigilant Guardian, a regular ANNUAL one done since the Cold War which shadowed a similar Russian one, testing NUCLEAR preparadness as it simulated a Russian nuclear bomber threat out over the ARCTIC CIRCLE.

A NORAD sponsored yearly drill involving NORAD air bases ... which are ringed on the landmass perimeter, so DIDN'T "take" anything away.



Simple ... it was SEVERELY damaged by falling debris from the Towers which started MULTIPLE fires on MULTIPLE floors and which were left UNFOUGHT for near SEVEN HOURS ... a state of affairs which gradually weakened the structure until it was no longer able to withstand the stresses and so collapsed.

Truther claims seem to ignore that WTC was an IRREGULAR TRAPEZOID structure with uneven column layout built OVER an electric sub-station and which was LARGER than originally planned for ... that it fell from so much damage is NOT so hard to see, understand and accept.

Fire Fighters KNEW it was going to collapse, having monitored its slow weakening throught the day, measuring it with transits and seeing it fail slowly ... the FDNY were NOT surprised it fell and they understand how structures respond to fire.

THEY have no problem with it ... funny how truthers whom were NOT there and have ZERO expertise in fire or structures are the only one that do !!!

Here ... ASK them ...

FDNY Companies with Websites

For surely IF you are genuine and an honest person you understand that speaking directly to the people MOST intimately involved is the best way possible to find answers ... will you be as spineless as every truther before you and not do any such honest or direct thing ...

Course you will !!!



Why ... do you just not get kinetics and gravity then ???



Most of which were beyond repair and demolished ... that is STILL a building failure.



Is this old lie still doing the rounds ???

Free-fall is 32 feet per second squared ... which would have worked out at about 9.2 seconds for the much higherTowers !!!

Seismic evidence puts the timings at around 15 seconds for WTC2 and 22 for WTC1 ... that is therefore some 75% longer than free-fall for WTC1 ... and 200% longer than free-fall for WTC2.

WTC7 took 18 seconds which is almost 300% longer than actual free-fall for the building !!!

AND it did NOT fall into its "own footprint" either ... unless you call it falling all over Barcley Street ACROSS THE STREET "own footprint" ...

barclay.jpg


But pray do tell me WHY truthers are so suggestible and gullible enough to fall for this whole "own footprint" mantra ... when EVEN just plain old-fashioned common sense tells you that a debris field of around 18 acres for buildings that had architectural footprint of around just THREE ACRES makes that claim a total falsehood ... please explain to me the mental gymnastics truthers need do to make that seem even rational ???

fema_debris_distribution.jpg




Nope ... again wrong.

Are you really so lacking in simple understanding that you fail to see that people tend to use HYPERBOLIC and METAPHORICAL language to describe extraordinary events ... and that LIKENING sounds of things blowing up in fires and damage is NOT the same as describing actual bombs.

Things blow up in fires ... do you really think the Towers somehow did not have stuff that can go BOOM in fires ... no electrical or pressurized equipment that is liable to cook off in fires ???

Add to that that NOBODY suffered ANY sign of blast injuries and we have proof positive there were NO actual explosives there ... blast injuries are UNIQUE ... nothing else causes them, so the absence of such injuries shows there was ZERO actual explosives there.

It IS this simple Intricate ...

NO BAROTRAUMA = NO BOMBS !!!



They aren't ... but I suppose the idea of similarity of names or identity theft didn't cross !!!



Not only was it NOT intact and perfect ... MILLIONS of other bits of paper survived too ... simple common sense tells you that paper, card and lightweight objects tend to be light enough to get BLOWN OUT OF HARMS WAY ... that a BRIGHT GREEN passport survived and was spotted alongside literally MILLIONS of other such items is no big deal.

Global Graphica » Tapestry Made of Paper Debris from the Twin Towers



Erm, because that was WHERE the turn brought him up to face ... :roll:

Flight Path



WHAT exactly is so damm "astoninshingly difficult" about a DESCENDING TURN that covers a FULL 360° ... a FULL CIRCLE covering miles ???

Seriously ...

77FlightPath.jpg




See this is the lie of truther sites ... they NEVER show you the WHOLE and FULL interviews for if they did it would show you that the instructore was REFERRING TO ONE POINT in time ... and that he IMPROVED from that point on.

And why do you fall for thinking ONE POINT in time is the whole ???

Hajour obviously IMPROVED from then to the point where he PASSED the FAA Airman tests ... therefore he was a FULLY-QUALIFIED COMMERCIAL PILOT ... taking one point at the start of his training and trying to make it the entire is both dishonest and misrepresentative.

But again truther sites NEED to lie and be so deceptive ... they can't afford to be truthful and honest !!!



Simple ... they weren't !!!



Nope ... there is just some people ignorant and gullible enough to fall for misleading and misrepresented claims and opinions by those whom were NOT there that day nor have ANY of the skills needed to understand it.

Have you been looking at those teenage boys of Loose Change or something ???



No ... again WRONG.

They did NOT "plan" to do any such thing ... it was a blue-sky thinking PROPOSAL ... that got REJECTED.



How delightfully teenage !!!
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You and yohr footprint silliness.

Take a tube of sand and pour it onto a circle the diameter of the tube.

The pile will spill over.

Jast as the debris fields did.

What skeptics are talking about is they fell straight down and not OVER.
 
What if...? said:
You and yohr footprint silliness.

Take a tube of sand and pour it onto a circle the diameter of the tube.

The pile will spill over.

Jast as the debris fields did.

What skeptics are talking about is they fell straight down and not OVER.
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And that ^^^ is what weak logic and revisionism looks like !!!

That the debris field was in order of magnitude far greater than the architectural footprints that actual demolition tries really hard to keep closely to, just shows how dumb truther claims of "own footprints" are ... this bleat is moot then.

WTC7 fell ACROSS the street ... with a definate lean to the South ... thereby wholly negating truther claims ...

 
I_Gaze_At_The_Blue said:
And that ^^^ is what weak logic and revisionism looks like !!!

That the debris field was in order of magnitude far greater than the architectural footprints that actual demolition tries really hard to keep closely to, just shows how dumb truther claims of "own footprints" are ... this bleat is moot then.

WTC7 fell ACROSS the street ... with a definate lean to the South ... thereby wholly negating truther claims ...

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I get that you're emotionally invested in this.

Simple mass af buildings of that height precludes a clean "implosion" like "true demolition" seeks.

A bigger pile than could possibly FIT in the architectural footprint.

You'd be better off sticking with other, more sensible aspects of your argument.

Rather than doubling down on your error in reading comprehension.

"Truthers" are concerned about the vertical collapses, NOT claiming the buildings fell neatly within their own footprints.

I have never seen a single claim from them that that was the issue.
 
What if...? said:
I get that you're emotionally invested in this.
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Nope ... facts and science hold no emotions.

What if...? said:
Simple mass af buildings of that height precludes a clean "implosion" like "true demolition" seeks.
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In English this time ... please ???

What if...? said:
A bigger pile than could possibly FIT in the architectural footprint.
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Yet actual demoltion companies manage it ... they do NOT spread debris all across the road !!!

What if...? said:
You'd be better off sticking with other, more sensible aspects of your argument.
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So you CAN'T show me wrong and just bleat instead ... figures.

What if...? said:
Rather than doubling down on your error in reading comprehension.
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Feel free to point out EXACTLY where any such "errors" on my part are ... be specific ???

What if...? said:
"Truthers" are concerned about the vertical collapses, NOT claiming the buildings fell neatly within their own footprints.

I have never seen a single claim from them that that was the issue.
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Don't know very much about your own side then ... it seems ...

(the rest ofthe building collapsed mostly into its footprint in about 7 seconds — near free-fall speed.)

WTC 7 - Gallery of Evidence

(The pile was almost entirely within the footprint of the former building)
WTC7.net the hidden story of Building 7: Building 7's Rubble Pile

**And I do love how they use an image from into the CLEAR-UP to "prove" it too**

(collapsed at 5:20pm into its own footprint and a small pile of rubble.)

TruthMove - Demolition & WTC 7

(The building collapsed in free fall time in its own footprint.)

guardian WTC 7 9/11 review

And they ain't talking across the street ... they CLEARLY mean its architectural footprint, the area the building stood upon.

Where have you been hiding for this is a linch-pin claim of twoofs !!!
 
Henry David said:
Since the US government was taken over by special interests Mike, that's when.

Ike even warned about it in 1961, perhaps before you were born. Powerful men behind the scenes hijack the control of government.
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My take on all this is that IKE was either fooled by the fraud that was already in place,
or he was a willing agent for the propaganda machine.

Fact is, the "Military Industrial complex" has been in business for a VERY long time
ever hear of a book called "WAR IS A RACKET" ? good stuff!
 
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