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Was 9/11 Really A Surprise Attack?

Mr David... it appears is a means-motive-opportunity sleuth... This sort of thinking points to intel or DOD. But it also seems to suggest that intel and DOD are controllable by non state actors... the powerful elite... and THEIR agenda would be probably more money... They don't seem to be suffering from any sort inhibition on their activities. But then there is the implied perverse need to own and control the entire world as if their control at the present is insufficient.

I've previously brought up the following documentary regarding 9/11:


Near the beginning of the documentary, Project Hammer is mentioned, along with a snapshot of an article relating to it. I found the article:
BUSH

I've only finished the second part (The Return of the Vulcans), but it's quite interesting so far.
 
Mr David... it appears is a means-motive-opportunity sleuth... This sort of thinking points to intel or DOD. But it also seems to suggest that intel and DOD are controllable by non state actors... the powerful elite... and THEIR agenda would be probably more money... They don't seem to be suffering from any sort inhibition on their activities. But then there is the implied perverse need to own and control the entire world as if their control at the present is insufficient. The logical conclusion is a depopulated planet with slaves to serve the elite.

I gotta go right now, but suffice to say that if all the evidence is analyzed, the finger is pointed at Israeli Mossad operatives. Not being a member of that group I am not personally aware of their exact motives and goals, but I can speculate.

Bollyn's book exposes much of this, and I just finished it today.
 
I gotta go right now, but suffice to say that if all the evidence is analyzed, the finger is pointed at Israeli Mossad operatives. Not being a member of that group I am not personally aware of their exact motives and goals, but I can speculate.

Bollyn's book exposes much of this, and I just finished it today.

It's an over-simplification to point the finger at Israel / Mossad.

Was there involvement of these groups, there is evidence to support that case, but the story is more complex, and involves people on the American side, and potentially other governments as well, which is suggested by some of the evidence.
 
It's an over-simplification to point the finger at Israel / Mossad.

Was there involvement of these groups, there is evidence to support that case, but the story is more complex, and involves people on the American side, and potentially other governments as well, which is suggested by some of the evidence.

Absolutely agree! No doubt at all that many of the players were non-Israeli.

But if you read Bollyn's book, you will discover just how many players, major and minor, are connected to Israel's Mossad.
 
Absolutely agree! No doubt at all that many of the players were non-Israeli.

But if you read Bollyn's book, you will discover just how many players, major and minor, are connected to Israel's Mossad.

And if you read Tolkiens books you will discover just how many players, major and minor were connected to Sauron.
 
And if you read Tolkiens books you will discover just how many players, major and minor were connected to Sauron.

And if you actually read Bollyn's book, you might understand the difference between facts and fiction concerning 9/11.
 
And if you actually read Bollyn's book, you might understand the difference between facts and fiction concerning 9/11.

We disagree on what is fact and fiction my friend. I already said i no longer wished to discuss this with you as it will only lead to animosity between us.
HD however has shown that he is a manipulative liar who cannot tell the truth and I have 0 respect for his lies and misdirections and have no problem pointing out what a fraud he is or ridiculing his pointless raving.
 
We disagree on what is fact and fiction my friend. I already said i no longer wished to discuss this with you as it will only lead to animosity between us.
HD however has shown that he is a manipulative liar who cannot tell the truth and I have 0 respect for his lies and misdirections and have no problem pointing out what a fraud he is or ridiculing his pointless raving.

We disagree on Henry. I think I should point out that I was the one who told Henry about this place and he's constantly been cheering me on. I think more then half the likes I've received have come from him. If it wasn't for him, I probably would have stopped posting here long ago. Which I'm sure some people would like, but the thing is, if people here don't want to talk about conspiracies, why are they here at all? This is the only forum in this site that discusses conspiracies, you would think that people contributing here would be more interested in actually reading what conspiracy theorists have to say.
 
We disagree on Henry. I think I should point out that I was the one who told Henry about this place and he's constantly been cheering me on. I think more then half the likes I've received have come from him. If it wasn't for him, I probably would have stopped posting here long ago. Which I'm sure some people would like, but the thing is, if people here don't want to talk about conspiracies, why are they here at all? This is the only forum in this site that discusses conspiracies, you would think that people contributing here would be more interested in actually reading what conspiracy theorists have to say.

People like Nila who have no clue about aviation? who think pilots can disable an attacker coming from behind when they are seated? Who think a pilot would try and invert a b757 and that this would break the necks of the attackers?(it would probably cause some deaths from heart attacks among the passengers if they tried mind you so I guess it could be lethal just not ot the hijackers) Who thinks the controls are diffrerent on a b757 and a cessna? (they are pretty much the same, yoke, pedals and throtles, the rest of the stuff was not requiredto merely fly the plane, but Nila doesnt know that cause she like HD is a compelte fraud!) Who think losing altitude in a steep turn would require an expert pilot? I could go on but She is such a fraud it is unreal, only your lack of knowledge of aviation can let you lend any credence to that total fraud (HD, Nila either one)
Sorry you are getting me back into it.
As to the CT crap, I have no problem in pointing out fallacies people state as fact, such as Nila and HD rants.
As to reading some CT nutjobs book why? it is all based on complete bogus info. The 911 attacks were commited by a bunch of terrorists with box cutters, The CT stuiff is all over the place and keeps getting weirder and weirder when their errors are pointed out.
I could waste my time reaing about alien experiments or the illuminati or any other CT but I prefer to read serious historical texts/documents over fantasy versions of history pretending to be real. If I want fantasy Ill read fantasy. All this 911 stuff is fantasy just like Tolkiens work, only Tolkien is far more enjoyable than any CT stuff I have read so far, and makes no pretense about his work.
 
Quag

I read Tolkein's books back in the 70's, all of them. Great fantasy, and they did a good job with the movie. Just saw it the other night with my daughter.

But I know the difference between fact and fantasy. It appears you do not.
 
Quag

I read Tolkein's books back in the 70's, all of them. Great fantasy, and they did a good job with the movie. Just saw it the other night with my daughter.

But I know the difference between fact and fantasy. It appears you do not.

Youi think 911 was an inside job, that ground effect would stop a B757 from hitting the pentagon, that a b52 doing low level aerobatics and stalling in a steep turn was proof that no one could hit the pentagon, I am not the one with a warped perception of reality.
 
Absolutely agree! No doubt at all that many of the players were non-Israeli.

But if you read Bollyn's book, you will discover just how many players, major and minor, are connected to Israel's Mossad.

Ya, I'm aware of much of that, but from what I've seen, the evidence only really supports that Mossad provided an "intelligence" role.

The point is that the people that did 9-11, they are not "israeli" or "American", or "British", or "german", they are internationalists that seek to amalgamate all governments into the sovereignty of a single world government body. They are internationalists that have no flag, but will fly any flag that suits their purposes.

9-11 was an event that was the shock that would start the dominoes tumbling towards that objective, and look where the world is now, still riding that shockwave.

Look how far the country has gone resulting from or using 9-11, I mean the patriot act was bad enough, but now add in the NDAA, people don't realize the extent that their freedoms have been degraded, all because of the "new pearl harbor".
 
Quag, a lot of your post was focused on the Pentagon Attack. As you know, I like to keep discussions on the Pentagon Attack in the thread I created for that purpose, so I've responded to that portion here:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/139999-911-pentagon-attack-22.html#post1061323834

I've responded to the rest of your post here.

Sorry you are getting me back into it.

Don't worry, I don't mind :p.

As to the CT crap, I have no problem in pointing out fallacies people state as fact, such as Nila and HD rants.

Or atleast that's what you think of their arguments, but it doesn't make your view true. That being said, by pointing out what you think is wrong with their arguments, you contribute your part to resolving this issue. Me, HD and others on our side of the debate can look at your arguments and attempt to show you where we think you, in turn, are mistaken.

As to reading some CT nutjobs book why? it is all based on complete bogus info.

Or so you believe. But until you see the arguments, I don't think you have the information to make that call.
 
The left is faced with the grim reality that the problem is so huge that only a massive paradigm shift in the thinking and behavior of the people can change anything. They probably (the smart ones) realize that advocating a revolution (violent) is treason or will get them locked away forever. They also realize that the system is so corrupt that there are no normal channels to reverse the fascism that has taken over and has a fig leaf called democracy as cover.


There is a huge effort to hide the truth from the people... in all manner from simply PR and lies and false stories.. to classifying everything as secret and recording ALL communications of EVERYONE and using software to find any activity that can be called criminal... and using this against someone... or creating it out of whole cloth.

The left DID believe that a democracy can support the people's interests. That the many's interests would prevail over the few's interests. They learned that this simply is not the case.. the democracy has been bought and sold and the people have been left out and rendered to serfs to do the dirty work. It's an order.. a nasty order. But those who control and benefit and live large don't want it to change and they will do anything it seems to keep things the way they are.

Whatever left there is... they haven't a clue how to get *us* out of this mess. They do understand that it has to be a mass movement... but they can't figure out how to make that happen. And they most certainly will not advocate the over throw of the US government or go even close..

There are, in fact, groups who are fighting back. They realize they have nothing left to lose and no other means than any sort of armed struggle... including terrorism. And using such approach plays right into the narrative of the state... it now has the excuse for it's own fascism and militarism. It can create false flags... or it can simply allow or even be caught off guard by terrorism.. all three fit the narrative and have the same response... more power to the state... more control and more oppression of the people.


Thanks for sharing.

I narrowed the quotes down in the interest of staying on point.

:peace:2wave:

(Preface)

The use of the term "Left" has many broad usages esp. in terms of the media. I once read an article about how many "journalists" at the BBC like to read and Guardian UK, and were "Lefties. Olberman has been called a "Lefty". But NBC and the BBC are the worst offenders when it comes to being megaphones for the National Security State. Today, I scanned the first 4 pages of Blacklisted News and read about 10 articles. My browser got stuck with 80 tracking cookies! All of the articles contained hefty amounts of speculation, while others vomited up lamestream media/ govmnt talking points. Then there is the tabloid junk, the distractions from hard news. In terms of the "Left" broadcasters, this takes up 80% of their air time. The fluff, the NGO press releases, (think ***** Riot) the talking points the government and conglomerates want you concentrating on, or on internet, the false conspiracies and limited hangouts cointelpro bloggers want you focused on.

Conclusions and Consensus, Reached Thusfar Part XXX



9/11, the War on Terror, and the Media

The first thing these "Left" or "Alternative" media morons can do to help the peace/justice movement forward is to report accurately.


__________________________________________________ ______________
Examples:

Ed Schultz - "Quaddafi was resposible for Lockerbie Bombing"...LIAR!

Alex Jones - "Andrew Breitbart was murdered"...LIAR

Pepe Escobar - "Syria /Libya are Sectarian Conflicts"...LIAR!

NPR - "Syria is a popular uprising against Assad"...LIAR!

Mike Malloy - "Obama only killed a few hundred people with drones, compared to George W. Bushs 1.5 million in Iraq"...LIAR!

Thom Hartman - "Obama does not torture" and "Sometimes those callers are Republican plants" (in response to a listener criticism of Obamas re-signed Patriot Act)...LIAR!

Webster Tarpley - "Occupy Wall Street are the useful idiots"...LIAR!
__________________________________________________ _________________


Again, these bloggers I thanked, kudos to them for the tireless efforts of updating their huge sites with articles over the years with indespensible reporting on Iraq when the pro-war, Pentagon PR machinery of the corporate press had everyone reading crap about Saddams "nuclear threat" and Judith Millers fabrications. (But why the holocaust denier stuff Michael Rivero of What Really Happened?) But the future of alternative media looks bleak, not because of the points already mentioned in previous posts, but because the good commentators are locked in Limited Hangouts, like Abby Martin at Russia Today or at PressTV (sorry folks those networks arent real) the complete lack of facts, coverage and quality content. The shows are opinion or pitting sources against one another, "us versus them" games of wac-a-mole waste time. (Fox, Rush Limbaugh, or CNN lies? Oh, no s__t, aye, what a revelation!) FAIR will waste your time with the almost dead, but still working as a shill,Tom Brokaw sucks story, arent we glad George Soros funds that Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting mess? Who gives a rip! "In Context" (CT public radio) hosted by Army guys, mentioned some things, but only what 20 months later, and obfuscated the truth with all manner of Establishment narrative horsecrud including Irans "nuclear ambitions,". Almost no one reported the fact that U.S. drones were being used over Syria, for example. Why? Because that would prove beyond a doubt that the war in Syria was planned and led by Washington the entire time. Literally one glaring omission missing from the 99% of NPR/Pacifica/Liberal Talk Radio coverage is that Syria and Libya were led and planned by the United States and would NEVER have happened had AMERICA not been the main aggressor. That other Western parties are involved in purely minimal, circumstantial, or logistical. Similarly, some people aren't real. They are just not real people, you know what I mean? They are a front, they are agents, they are deep cover, they are FBI. I mean, if you read the Bob Feldman (as well as other writers) stuff about the Ford Foundation, Chomsky it would appear that the entire Progressive Genre was created by the CIA. Or you would read these things about socialist cliques where 85% of the group were agents. Look at Pacifica Radio today. Its classic COINTELPRO like Democracy Now has become, (or was it always?) as you have what I call the Laundry List Liberalism: a half hour of new age spiritualism, a half hour of environmental, a half hour of Al Jazeera English "World News" (American "war on terror" invasion justifications), even in years past they had Taliban abuse of women segments as reasons to justify U.S. aggressions,a typical NGO tactic, the plight of native people, or in other cases, endless pseudo-intellectualizing of irrelevant historical reference points, is always the public radio, subject changing, to trick the audience away from the present issue of facts about, U.S. government corruption and illegalities, and ends up moving away from the necessary conclusion to the story, or solution to the problem. The Pacifica Radio model is indeed as resprehensible as NPR in deluding its audience about the myth that the United States as a people are democratic and having their position represented in Congress. (using the visages of MLK, Ghandi, Mother Theresa for its KPFK.org website banner, etc.)I'm sure MLK would be very approving of Preznit Obombers war in Syria and Libya when Amy Goodman has to justify them to her mass of brainwashed followers, with her guests from the NGOs, U.S. govmnt, the Ford Foundation and the CIA, whether its falsified casualty figures from the Doctors Without Borders or false embedded reporting from Reporters Without Borders. Pacifica Radio always use their perception management to give the appearance of free speech, the fight for justice, equality and human rights, but are using every resource available to stifle those exact issues.




 
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Phoenyx, Passenger or Cargo there is no way a pilot would ever try and invert a heavy aircraft to disable hijackers. You making a lot of assumptions to even begin to believe anyoen would try this (well Nila is, but she is a fraud)
1. Pilots knew they only had boxcutters and not bombs as well
2. Hijackers werent holding a knife to the throat of a stewardess/passenger when they broke in to cockpit.
3. Pilots would do a crazy manoeuver that had little to no chance of stoppign hijackers.

The controls to fly the plane ARE the same Nila lies when she says different. The yoke controlls pitch/roll, pedals the rudder and the throttles the engines. That is what controlls the plane and they are pretty much identical on a cessna/B757. Now an airbus uses a joystick instead of a yoke, which could cause some confusion for the terrorists but they used Boeing aircraft. TOTAL fail by Nila. not conjecture not my opinion this is fact. The controls to fly are the same.

Once again losing altitude in a steep turn is expected and requires skill to avoid, not that they really wanted to avoid losing altitude. Nila either ignores this or has no clue. as to the quote from ATC you once again have left out the ending where the controller says "you just dont fly a passenger jet liek that" He was not saying it had to be a military jet he was saying passenger jets dont normally do things liek that. Guess what they dont normally deliberately fly into buildings either!
As to the transponder you are once again assuming there was only 1 guy at the controlls. Also it would take an extreme moron to not figure out that you should turn off the transponder if you dont want ATC to follow you. I can only assume that they were either preccupied with other stuff or it took them a little bit to find the transponder to turn it off, which is the reason for the delay. My guess is it is the first one as they arent that hard to spot if you know what you are looking for.
HD doesnt think he just spouts nonsense and I am not critical of his abilities I dont believe he is a pilot, IE I dont think he has ANY ability to fly a plane
HMM ok so you admit maybe they had stuff even more deadly than box cutters making Nila even more ridiculous.
Sorry phoenyx I have pointed out to you over and over again why Nila has no clue. Hell even as a cargo plane operator she wouldnt try and invert the plane to break the necks of the hijackers, Does she have that much trust the cargo is so well tied down it wont come loose and cause major problems (both physical and shifting the balance out) that she would try that? Got to be the only pilot in the world that woudl ever even think of that with a large plane. Again she assumes the hijackers didnt have knives/guns (you added the chance it wasnt just box cutters) holding passengers crew hostage as they entered the cockpit.
The whole scenario by Nila is beyond ridiculous and can only ever be considered plausible by someone who does not fly or is so immersed in they CT fantasy they will accept anything.
 
Quag, a lot of your post was focused on the Pentagon Attack. As you know, I like to keep discussions on the Pentagon Attack in the thread I created for that purpose, so I've responded to that portion here:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/139999-911-pentagon-attack-22.html#post1061323834

I've responded to the rest of your post here.



Don't worry, I don't mind :p.



Or atleast that's what you think of their arguments, but it doesn't make your view true. That being said, by pointing out what you think is wrong with their arguments, you contribute your part to resolving this issue. Me, HD and others on our side of the debate can look at your arguments and attempt to show you where we think you, in turn, are mistaken.



Or so you believe. But until you see the arguments, I don't think you have the information to make that call.

Yeah you sneaky bringing me back!
HD doesnt provide arguemnts he provides fallacious stetments then either backs away from them or refuses to answer any questions abou them, you at least try.
I dont have to read all of tolkiens work to know they are fantasy, neither do I have to read all CT stuff to know it is fantasy as well. Your arguement doesnt hold up.
 
As far as I know, you can write about whatever you like in whatever thread you like here. All I'm saying is that 9/11 is a subject that is big enough on its own, no need to add even more subjects to this one. But if that's what you want to do, you're welcome to it.


Conclusions and Consenus Thusfar, Part XXXI


The Limited Hangout, Part II


Again, when it comes to discussing how the media covers 9/11 and the war on terror, they aren't unrelated. If I say 99% of the media is Cointelpro look at the war at the war on terror coverage, I will use as many examples as possible. You may disagree with my interpretation of the data, however, but it is still on topic. For example, a recent Op-Ed from former LAT writer Robert Sheer stated how he and fellow Lefty Chris Hedges of the NYT lost their respective jobs due to the stance of their articles on Afghanistan and Iraq. Think what you wish. Likewise,it is no coincidence that the broadcast medium is a vertible vaccum of information, continually going to tabloid news once the news cycle rolls around to 5pm and people get off work, they are fed a steady diet of fluff, hot button, Facebook outrages, and the calculated, boxed-in rhetoric, of Elites and news managers. The reality that consensus and agreement will never be reached in demolition theory seems to be well planned, like so many wedge issues, Party positions, and political ads. They were not designed for this purpose. Just as no growing 9/11 Truth movement will ever be built on "holograms into the WTC" storyline repeated ad nauseum, but exist solely to divide, like abortion, religion in politics, or racism.

The CFR Democrats and Elites knew they would need a cover to invade Iraq, because like many Republican voters, the people would object. Hence the need to connect 9/11 and Saddam. Right - remember the "Pearl Harbor" with Ben Affleck movie released just after 9/11. Aye, shore up the troops, and the patriotic fervor for the long haul. Implant the subconscious. That was a coincidence too. :no: Of course, it isn't part of the Architechs and Engineers film so how would a beginner on the subject connect the dots, by also viewing Farhenheit 9/11, I figure. Unless of course, he preferred "Space Beams" on the WTC, and Star Wars movies, in which case, go to Jesse Venturas show. But you can't just have space beams and the Knights Templar, to worry about, you need to man up with your guns to keep your family from being captured by govmnt agents and placed in one of Alex Jones, FEMA concentration camps. And you'll probably need some grenades or a rocket launcher for when David Ickes Reptilians try to take over, like the TV movie, "V", right?:mrgreen:

You begin to understand why Art Bell had the Popular Mechanics 9/11 Truth debunkers on his show. So he could get back to the limited hangout shows about aliens and shadow people. None of that democracy, freedom stuff, and the god given right human beings have, not to get blown up by some American hellish weapon of mass destruction created by Dynacorp, aka GM ( Ed Schultz advertiser), GE, (Olbermans sponsor), and Lockheed Martin, (Anderson Cooper,Rachel Maddow CFR corporate controllers and sponsors) all part of the same insane, interwoven, war machines. This is Clear Channel, god bless it, we ain't gonna have no anti-war, truth telling around here. (We'll sponsor a pro-war demonstration, though, and call everyone who disagrees with us, a coward and a traitor)

The Limited Hangout is designed to go nowhere. No Kucinich talking about a possible peace summit. No Cindy Sheehan saying vote for me instead of Obomber. No networking or chain letters like when Perot got on the ballot, or in order for the next demonstration to occur. No on-air demands that the President, newly "re-elected", take a non-violent approach to foreign policy. No message of peace being drilled into the audience to mobilize them into action. The Limited Hangout is designed to DO NOTHING. Take a few calls, be a pretend democracy, push button derision, delusion, division, and hypocrisy, and by extension reinforce the status quo.

(and by the way, send in a donation, buy my books, coffee mugs, and t-shirts) :thumbdown





And so in the end, everyone kept dying. And Big Brother got bigger.




 
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African nations chose Libya for the human rights role

:lol:

:lol:

:lol:

:lol:
 
[Discussion transferred from another thread]



Since Nila claims to be a pilot of heavy aircraft, it would appear you're mistaken there.
claims yes, but her whole story shows she doesnt understand much about flying, either that or she is being purposely misleading.

So you claim, but haven't shown any evidence that this is true.
Can you find me 1 instance of attempted hijacking where this was tried? The answer is no. Why? Because the SOP before 911 was to comply with the hijackers and not put the plane/passengers/cargo/crew at risk. Nila either is unaware of this or is ignoring it for her fantasy scenario


I'd like to point out that the evidence that the alleged hijackers were actually on the planes is sketchy at best:
At Least 7 of the 9/11 Hijackers are Still Alive
all BS of course.

I also believe the notion that they all had box cutters comes from a single cell phone call where it was mentioned that they had them; that leaves out the other 3 planes
So you believe something congrats, But you realize you just opened up the possibility of even more dangerous weapons. That does not help your cause in the slightest.


In the case of Flight 77, there is evidence that the cockpit door was apparently never opened, so the whole idea that they broke into the cockpit at all is put into question:
9/11: Pentagon Aircraft Hijack Impossible - Pilots For 9/11 Truth Forum
Again pure BS based on someones “interpretation” of data and this is coming from a known truther site that has shown it has no problem manipulating the data to make it say what they want. Again doesn’t do anything to help Nila's pathetic storyline either.



I think it's a good idea to quote what "crazy maneuver" Nila had in mind:
"Every pilot who knows him says that rather than politely hand over the controls, Burlingame would have instantly rolled the plane on its back so that Hanjour would have broken his neck when he hit the floor. But let’s ignore this almost natural reaction expected of a fighter pilot and proceed with this charade."
NO pilot would ever try that. Find me one who did. Go ahead find one. MY god this is the most utter ridiculous thing she says. Have you ever seen the cockpit of a fighter plane? Tell me how many fighter planes have been Hijacked? NO one would ever ever ever try this NOT EVEN NILA IF SHE HAS EVEN EVER SAT IN A COCKPIT.

I admit that I'm also skeptical that Burlingame would have done this in a passenger plane. She claims that "every pilot who knows him" said that he would do this, though. I must admit I'm curious as to who she talked to precisely. I've actually contacted the editor of Veterans Today who posted her article in the hopes that he has contact information of the author so I could point out your point about endangering the passengers with such a maneuver.
So Nila who as far as I can tell didnt personally know him says he would ignore SOP and do somethign that had a greater chance of killing a passenger than doing anything at all to the hijackers? Get real NO ONE WOULD EVER TRY THIS. I keep putting thsi in caps because it is beyond ridiculous to even make the statement.

She doesn't deny that those are the same. The thing is, there's more to a 757 then those instruments. She gets very specific as to the differences:
yoke controls pitch and roll rudder pedals control yaw, throttles control engine. Exatly the same

****
Imagine that Hanjour overpowers the flight deck crew, removes them from the cockpit and takes his position in the captain’s seat. The weather reports say it was fairly clear, so let’s say Hanjour experienced a perfect CAVU day (Ceiling And Visibility Unlimited). If Hanjour looked straight ahead through the windshield, or off to his left at the ground, at best he would see, 35,000 feet — 7 miles — below him, a murky brownish-grey-green landscape, virtually devoid of any significant surface detail, while the aircraft he was now piloting was moving along, almost imperceptibly and in eerie silence, at around 500 MPH (about 750 feet every second).
In a real-world scenario, with this kind of “situational NON-awareness”, Hanjour might as well have been flying over Argentina, Russia, or Japan—he wouldn’t have had a clue as to where, precisely, he was.
After a few seconds (at 750 ft/sec), Hanjour would figure out there’s little point in looking outside—there’s nothing there to give him any real visual cues. For a man who had previously wrestled with little Cessnas, following freeways and railroad tracks (and always in the comforting presence of an instructor), this would have been a strange, eerily unsettling environment indeed.
Seeing nothing outside, Mr. Hanjour would be forced to divert his attention to his instrument panel, where he’d be faced with a bewildering array of instruments—nothing like he had seen in a Cessna 172. He would then have to very quickly interpret his heading, ground track, altitude, and airspeed information on the displays before he could even figure out where in the world he was, much less where the Pentagon was located in relation to his position.
After all, before he can crash into a target, he has to first find the target.
It is very difficult to explain this scenario, of an utter lack of ground reference, to non-pilots; but let it suffice to say that for these incompetent hijacker non-pilots to even consider grappling with such a daunting task would have been utterly overwhelming. They wouldn’t have known where to begin.

****
Again she is using your total lack of knowledge to beguile you. Hani would know how to use a VOR or NDB and could easily use one to get going in the right direction. Hell they know where they took off and where they were going so they would know what general direction to turn to begin with. As to the BS about him flying always with an instructor sorry buddy that is total BS. He had to do that on his own as well, several times to get a commercial licence. Again she is trying to use the old 1 guy said he was a bad pilot so he couldnt have ever flown anything. Guess what you already posted links where one of his flight instructors said yeah of course he could have done it. Not some guy who went up with him way before 911 but someone who flew repeatedly with him. Yes the instrument panel on a B757 is much more complicated than a C172, but they didnt need to touch 99% of it. A VOR is a VOR and NDB is an NDB. A transponder is a transponder etc. She again pretends that they were non pilots yet at least 1 held a commercial licence. Now I will say it again, go take a ground school learn about flying and discover what a fraud Nila is



Where do you get this notion that she was so concerned about them losing altitude? As mentioned in my previous post here, her concern was the preciseness of the initial turn:

***
According to FAA radar controllers, “Flight 77” then suddenly pops up over Washington DC and executes an incredibly precise diving turn at a rate of 360 degrees/minute while descending at 3,500 ft/min, at the end of which “Hanjour” allegedly levels out at ground level. Oh, I almost forgot: He also had the presence of mind to turn off the transponder in the middle of this incredibly difficult maneuver (one of his instructors later commented the hapless fellow couldn’t have spelt the word if his life depended on it).

The maneuver was in fact so precisely executed that the air traffic controllers at Dulles refused to believe the blip on their screen was a commercial airliner. Danielle O’Brian, one of the air traffic controllers at Dulles who reported seeing the aircraft at 9:25 said, “The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane.” (Distinguished University of Minnesota Philosophy Professor Joins 9/11 Fight, Saying the Truth Must Be Uncovered - Looking Glass News)

It was not precise and it was not difficult. Sorry she is just plum wrong! Again she ignores the rest of the atc quote where he says you just dont fly a passenger plane like that. Very good now we have established she is willing to cut quotes to fit her lying narrative as well as pretend that a high angle descending turn is difficult. TOTAL FRAUD!


That's not all he's saying. Hani Hanjour was a terrible pilot, as Nila makes clear:
***Hani Hanjour: “His English was horrible, and his mechanical skills were even worse. It was like he had hardly even ever driven a car. I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon. He could not fly at all.”
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hanjour.html
***
Again already dealt with 1 guy way before 911 who flew with him 1X vs his flight instructor who said of course he coudl do it. Add to that he had a commercial licence (you really should learn how much more is required for commercial over private, before you ever bring up this red herring again)

That would be Nila's assumption, but yes, I believe you're right on that one atleast.
again even 1 guy could do this, not a huge deal to turn off a transponder, but Nila acts like it is as hard as shutting down a nuclear power station. No its about as hard as turnin off you TV 1 switch.


ATC would still be able to follow them, it just wouldn't be squawking its flight number and altitude. Why would they care, though, if they were going to be committing suicide in so little time? I ask you to consider that the reason that the transponders were turned off had absolutely nothing to do with trying to avoid ATC detection (to do that, just fly the plane low, which I believe they actually did over Ohio, at which point ATC did indeed lose them to RADAR) and everything to do with swapping one plane for another (the swap being done at the point that "Flight 77" went of the radar).
Actually it does impede ATC radars. It not only changes from SSR to PSR (different symbol on the screen) but they lose flight info including altitude/speed/ident. Also the radar will make a coasting target on the screen (it extrapolates where the plane was what direction it was going and at what speed when it loses the transponder signal and makes a target to continue for a bit along that path. Also it confuses ATC, they have specific rules about identifying radar targets and a PSR (primary surveillance radar) target is pretty freaking hard to positively identify, add to that they go went outside the initial ATC radar coverage and things get very messy indeed. In fact they would have gone over several ATC radar screens and not all in the same building. Turning off the transponder was a wise move on their part as it would increase ATC confusion and make interception harder, despite any BS Nila may claim. Read the tapes again ATC quickly became unsure of where the aircraft was, Heck they were telling the military they thought it was still airbourne after it hit the pentagon. Why becuase PSR isnt nearly as neat and tidy as Nila thinks.
 
No indication that Hani Hanjour knew much about planes at all, but I won't contest this point.
Yes he merely had a commercial pilots licence obviously he didnt even know which end was the fron or the back of the plane! Give me a break


In other words, you're calling him a liar. Admittedly, he does the same to you. It would be nice, ofcourse, if we could have this discussion over at Pilots for 9/11 Truth, where there are many known and respected licensed pilots that would be able to comment, but I, atleast, would not be able to participate as they cut my posting access there a while back.
Yes I have called him that on several occasions, either he is lying about his flying credentials or he is lying about how planes fly, either way he is lying.

I did? Personally, I believe that if any of the alleged hijackers were even on any of the allegedly hijacked planes, they would have had little if anything to do with flying them. In the case of the pentaplane, I believe it was flown by remote control as part of one of the War Games that was taking place on that day.
Ok despite all evidence to the contrary you will continue to accept the more ridiculous CT bs, cant do squat about that.

If it's a matter of losing the entire plane to hijackers, I think she just might. It also bears pointing out that she said that Burlingame's friends allegedly told her that he would do this. Clearly, it would be nice to speak to Nila on this point, though, because Flight 77 was ofcourse not a cargo plane, but a passenger plane.
So Nila who after hijackers break into the cockpit and she having no clue what kind of weaponry/bombs they have with them in 1 split second would break SOP that says comply with hijackers and execute a manoeuvre that has little to no chance of incapacitating the hijackers but puts her plane/passengers at risk, if not from the manoeuvre then from a possible bomb they hijackes may have. Remember bombs were/are a favourite of hijackers. NILA is far to much of a fraud to ever try anything so gung-ho or contrary to SOP's. Liars like to pretend bravado but usually they are the most chicken when it comes to it (yes that is an assumption by me, but doesn’t change the fact NO pilot has ever tried such nonsense)
 
Ya, I'm aware of much of that, but from what I've seen, the evidence only really supports that Mossad provided an "intelligence" role.

The point is that the people that did 9-11, they are not "israeli" or "American", or "British", or "german", they are internationalists that seek to amalgamate all governments into the sovereignty of a single world government body. They are internationalists that have no flag, but will fly any flag that suits their purposes.

9-11 was an event that was the shock that would start the dominoes tumbling towards that objective, and look where the world is now, still riding that shockwave.

Look how far the country has gone resulting from or using 9-11, I mean the patriot act was bad enough, but now add in the NDAA, people don't realize the extent that their freedoms have been degraded, all because of the "new pearl harbor".

Agreed. You and I will never know just exactly what Mossad's role really was limited to "intelligence".
 
Why would nations hamper transnational corporations or even MIC which operates all over the world? You don't really think they these already powerful entities actually are steering the world toward a borderless one world government do you? Why? Having separate nations only makes it easier for them... if them exists and has any other agenda other then wealth and protecting their control of the game.
 
Rising Sun, if you find a site with 250 pilots who believe the official story and explain why, let me know. Heck, find me one with 25 and I'll be interested.

Sure thing... right after you show me more than 0.1 percent of architects and engineers that believe [insult removed]

Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth currently has over 1,700 members; perhaps that's less than 0.1 percent of architects and engineers in the U.S. or what not, fine. But if you can show me an organization of a mere 170 architects and engineers that are on record as agreeing with the official story, complete with some cogent arguments backing up their beliefs, please let me know.

Aww crap. I mentioned box boy's A/E's which is more in line with the WTC thread. I guess I'll move this whole exchange into there now.

You actually didn't mention Richard Gage's organization at all, though I certainly think you were implying it from your previous statement. Anyway, this thread is ideal for light conversations on any aspect of 9/11.
 
Pilots are just humans, and most are FAR MORE CONCERNED with keeping their job than rocking the boat.

Like politicians, once they leave their job they can speak out. 'Til then, they shut up and fly. :lol:

I happen to know one air force pilot who I verified myself, who believes the official story concerning 9/11 and argued with me and a core member of Pilots for 9/11 Truth for a while. I also believe Quag is a pilot as well. So I know that there are some who do believe the official story and defend it. However, I have heard lots of examples of people who have spoken up against the official story, only to be fired from their job (Kevin Ryan) or suspended from it (Steven Jones), so I think that Henry may well be correct here. Finally, there are those 250 pilots mentioned at Patriots Question 9/11, which shows that there is also a fair amount of pilots who have spoken up; I know that some of them are retired, though I've never tried to calculate the percentage of them who are retired.
 
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