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There's no such thing as "Separation of Church and State"

VF500

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Anyone who says there is can shut me up by simply posting where it is in the constitution.


The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the Constitution.
Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

This is what the constitution does say;
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am1.html

This provision was put into the constitution to protect people from governmental intervention in their religion or establishing a state religion. It was not meant to prevent government from having religion in it. So all you Sea Lawyers out there who keep flapping your gums about the Separation of Church and State are all full of crap.
 
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Anyone who says there is can shut me up by simply posting where it is in the constitution.


The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the Constitution.
Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

This is what the constitution does say;
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1 - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

This provision was put into the constitution to protect people from governmental intervention in their religion or establishing a state religion. It was not meant to prevent government from having religion in it. So all you Sea Lawyers out there who keep flapping your gums about the Separation of Church and State are all full of crap.

Thomas Jefferson was the first to coin the phrase "Seperation of Church and State." Let me see if I can find the full quote. I believe the full quote sheds some light on the true intention.
 
Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802

As you can see, the intent of the First Amendment (and the entire Bill of Rights) was to ensure that the right to freely practice religion would not be relinquished to government legislation. The Bill of Rights was not protection for the government from religion.
 
Thomas Jefferson was the first to coin the phrase "Seperation of Church and State." Let me see if I can find the full quote. I believe the full quote sheds some light on the true intention.

Here's the quote you're talking about,
I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law regarding an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.
and here's where it came from.
Where did the phrase "separation of church and state" originate?
As you can see, it was only something he put in a letter to calm the fears of the Danbury Conn. Baptist's Association. However, the ACLU and other communist groups have siezed on that statement and perverted its meaning to theirown extemist thinking. It has absolutely no constitutional significance as to keeping religion out of schools or politics. It protects religion from government, not the other way around.
 
As you can see, the intent of the First Amendment (and the entire Bill of Rights) was to ensure that the right to freely practice religion would not be relinquished to government legislation. The Bill of Rights was not protection for the government from religion.

+1 (thumbs up!)
 
Yet the same people are against adopting Sharia Law...

Religion controlling the country is ok, as long as it's the right religion?
 
Yet the same people are against adopting Sharia Law...

Religion controlling the country is ok, as long as it's the right religion?

I see plenty of hypocrisy all around when it comes to the way folks view Christianity and Islam. Those you referenced who don't think thriogh their positions here in regards to separation of church and state are balanced out by those on this forum who do the opposite -- acting as apologists for Islam while focusing on Christianity.
 
How do you have time to post, I thought you were busy spam mailing the ACLU your message of hate?

Religion is excluded from law, for good reason. If you have to ask....
 
Thomas Jefferson was the first to coin the phrase "Seperation of Church and State." Let me see if I can find the full quote. I believe the full quote sheds some light on the true intention.

I find it puzzling how liberals can tell us on one hand that the Declaration of Independence is not law, but on the other hand a letter to the Danbury Baptists is.
 
I find it puzzling how liberals can tell us on one hand that the Declaration of Independence is not law, but on the other hand a letter to the Danbury Baptists is.

The letter isn't law. But it does show the intent of a law that was written.
 
Anyone who says there is can shut me up by simply posting where it is in the constitution.

So you're saying that the government could declare Zoroastrianism the national religion, and it would be contitutional?
 
Let's examine the first amendment shall we?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".

Hmm...that sounds to me like what it says. No law in this country can be made in regards to religious establishments. Which includes any particular religion being set up or how that religion is set up. In otherwords the federal government cannot tell someone what they must or must not have inside of their religion.

"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Again, pretty straight forward. No one can force another, through legislation, to act contrary to how they wish to exercise thier religion. Which means that no one can promote or force upon ones religion upon another through legislation. This includes, but is not limited to, how one behaves in as dictated by religions, ones belief system.

So while the words "seperation of state and church" is not in the constitution exactly, it is most assuredly there in spirit.
 
So you're saying that the government could declare Zoroastrianism the national religion, and it would be contitutional?

Is this your idea of a post showing the constitution says religion and government must be mutally exclusive, as I stated in my initial post? :confused: Take a reading course.
 
Is this your idea of a post showing the constitution says religion and government must be mutally exclusive, as I stated in my initial post? :confused: Take a reading course.

The text say "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" thus, the government cannot create a religion, nor can it make a state religion, hence "separation of church and state".
 
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Let's examine the first amendment shall we?



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".

Hmm...that sounds to me like what it says. No law in this country can be made in regards to religious establishments. Which includes any particular religion being set up or how that religion is set up. In otherwords the federal government cannot tell someone what they must or must not have inside of their religion.

"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Again, pretty straight forward. No one can force another, through legislation, to act contrary to how they wish to exercise thier religion. Which means that no one can promote or force upon ones religion upon another through legislation. This includes, but is not limited to, how one behaves in as dictated by religions, ones belief system.

So while the words "seperation of state and church" is not in the constitution exactly, it is most assuredly there in spirit.

I'm with you up to your last sentence. There was no intention of keeping government from being "religious" or having religion. In fact it would really be a good thing if our govenmental representatives had more religion. Maybe there would be a lot less lying and under handed policy making. The protection is for citizens against government, not a prohibition of religion in government. The ACLU has falsely siezed on something Jefferson wrote in a letter to a group of Baptists seeking to allay their fears of the government getting involved in their religious practices. Being word twisting barristers, (bastards?) they found Jefferson's phrase about a "wall" separating the government from people's religion and have tried to make it part of the constitution, which it of course is not. If there's any separation of church and state, it's a one-way door keeping "state" out of "Church" and not the other way around.
 
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The text say "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" thus, the government cannot create a religion, nor can it make a state religion, hence "separation of church and state".
What's it like down there in Kookaburra land? How do you make the jump from not establishing a state religion to outlawing Nativity scenes outside a public building or being able to say Merry Christmas? A Nativity scene is "the free exercise thereof" (meaning religion). Who is being forced to attend a specific church? No one. In schools it's just the opposite. There was an instance of a teacher taking her class on a field trip to a Mosque. They had to take off their shoes and paricipate in the service. Can you just imagine if a teacher took her class to a church and had them participate in the service? You'd hear the screaming from the ACLU all the way to Alice Springs.
A 6th Grade class goes on field trip to a Mosque and then pray to Allah - Patriot Action Network
 
Yet the same people are against adopting Sharia Law...

Religion controlling the country is ok, as long as it's the right religion?

Who wants Religion controlling the government?
 
What's it like down there in Kookaburra land? How do you make the jump from not establishing a state religion to outlawing Nativity scenes outside a public building or being able to say Merry Christmas? A Nativity scene is "the free exercise thereof" (meaning religion). Who is being forced to attend a specific church? No one. In schools it's just the opposite. There was an instance of a teacher taking her class on a field trip to a Mosque. They had to take off their shoes and paricipate in the service. Can you just imagine if a teacher took her class to a church and had them participate in the service? You'd hear the screaming from the ACLU all the way to Alice Springs.
A 6th Grade class goes on field trip to a Mosque and then pray to Allah - Patriot Action Network

Where did I make that jump? The fact remains that while the phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution, the wording is made to keep churches and state separate, hence use the phrase "separation of church and state" to describe the relevant part of the first amendment.

What you're complaining about in this thread are the overly PC dickheads that seem to think that separation of church and state means separation of religion and state, of which there is a subtle, but quite vast difference.
 
So you're saying that the government could declare Zoroastrianism the national religion, and it would be contitutional?

Exactly.. people think separation of church and state means different things
 
I'm with you up to your last sentence. There was no intention of keeping government from being "religious" or having religion. In fact it would really be a good thing if our govenmental representatives had more religion. Maybe there would be a lot less lying and under handed policy making. The protection is for citizens against government, not a prohibition of religion in government. The ACLU has falsely siezed on something Jefferson wrote in a letter to a group of Baptists seeking to allay their fears of the government getting involved in their religious practices. Being word twisting barristers, (bastards?) they found Jefferson's phrase about a "wall" separating the government from people's religion and have tried to make it part of the constitution, which it of course is not. If there's any separation of church and state, it's a one-way door keeping "state" out of "Church" and not the other way around.

So it's all a conspiracy and the ACLU is at the head of it? That is interesting..

What I think separation of church and state means is that the government doesn't interfere with the church. The government doesn't have control or authority over a church, but it has control and authority over the branches.. as stated in the constitution. This means that the government can decide gay marriage is legal, but because there is a separation, the government isn't going to force the church to marry gays. The government is not going to get in the middle of a civil case when a Jew is outright refused work by a catholic school for their religious affiliation, even though that is forbidden under Title 7.. The church doesn't pay taxes, people get tax deductions for money made to churches (regardless of faith), but not money donated to political campaigns.

I think separation of church and state protects churches.. and their right to practice their faith from being intruded upon by the government
 
No, the phrase "separation of church and state" is not found in the Constitution.

Does that mean that the government should be allowed to favor one religion over another? That any particular religion should have precedence? That any religion should be allowed to have undue influence in government?

No, we have a long and proud tradition of separating religion from government, hence the phrase "separation of church and state."

Now, that's settled. The government doesn't meddle in religion, and religion doesn't meddle in government (or so it is supposed to be).

Now, let's address the fact that the word "gun" or the word "firearm" does not appear in the Constitution.
 
There was no intention of keeping government from being "religious" or having religion. In fact it would really be a good thing if our govenmental representatives had more religion.

The real folly of that statement will be seen when the religion the government adopts is not Christianity.. then you'll put out the whole, we were founded on Christianity card and I will ask for proof in the Constitution.

The Constitution says the government can't establish a religion or exercise.. and if the government gets religious, as you say, then I will be concerned. What about other religious members in the government, their free speech? Can they get religious too, or should Christianity be the only religion expressed?
 
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The letter isn't law. But it does show the intent of a law that was written.

Hmm, then I guess the DoI shows the intent of a Constitution that was written.
 
Someone should introduce this guy to the wonderful world of case law.
 
Regardless if it's there explicitly or not, it's a good idea.

Take a look at modern Iran or Medieval Europe for indicators why it's BAD when religion and government get together.
 
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