• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is displaying the Declaration of Independence in government buildings and schools unconstitutional?

Your understanding is faulty: I don’t care one way or the other about minor religious traditions. And it doesn’t make difference if it means anything to me, it only matters to the person swearing.


Ah, that’s different. There have clearly been influences, and there have been laws based on religious motivation, but no laws should be based solely or mainly on religious principles.



I have no such wish. All religions should be equal under the law.


(1)Nope. Shouldn’t happen.<Laws based on any religion...or multiple religions.>


(2)I’m not sure what you’re referring to. Which laws aren’t enforced because if religious or political ideology? Examples, please.
(1)Then your affirm that the separation of church and state interpretation of the religion part of the first amendment means: No religion in gov't? Previously, you disagreed with that analysis.
Any and all religions are allowed. The government cannot support or promote or prefer any religion over any other. The Supreme Court building has representations of Confucius, Muhammed, and Moses. Congress begins sessions with prayer. Presidents regularly swear on the Bible and say “God bless America.”

How do you think religion is forbidden?

Mostly, though, I was responding to your claim that “declaring that all men are created equal is an implication and inference of a creating being, of religion.”. Nobody claims that.
How is religion disallowed in gov't??? By you disallowing any law based on teachings of any religion.


(2)You're not aware of the current immigration crisis where immigration law isn't being prosecuted?
 
Last edited:
(1)Then your affirm that the separation of church and state interpretation of the religion part of the first amendment means: No religion in gov't? Previously, you disagreed with that analysis.
The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.'
EVERSON v. BOARD OF EDUCATION OF EWING TP.(1947) 330 US 1

This does not forbid personal expressions of religion, or the “ceremonial deism” of congressional chaplains. Nor does it forbid acknowledgement of religion or displays or teaching in a secular context.



How is religion disallowed in gov't??? By you disallowing any law based on teachings of any religion.
Well, my state of Virginia is a big pig farming state, so Jewish or Islamic Law or any of the religions that practice vegetarianism would be detrimental to the state.

But why would you want to be required to obey the religious laws of a religion not your own?


(2)You're not aware of the current immigration crisis where immigration law isn't being prosecuted?
Illegal presence is not a crime and so cannot be prosecuted. Illegal entry is a misdemeanor offense, and most caught entering illegally are just sent back...why clog up the courts?
And it is not my understanding that illegal entry or Visa overstays are so much worse than previously so as to now constitute a crisis.

And no, I’ve never heard of any religious reasons affecting US immigration policy in any way (in recent years...religious bigotry was no doubt part of the reason for the Chinese Exclusion Acts)
 
(1)Then your affirm that the separation of church and state interpretation of the religion part of the first amendment means: No religion in gov't? Previously, you disagreed with that analysis.
The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.'
EVERSON v. BOARD OF EDUCATION OF EWING TP.(1947) 330 US 1

This does not forbid personal expressions of religion, or the “ceremonial deism” of congressional chaplains. Nor does it forbid acknowledgement of religion or displays or teaching in a secular context.




Well, my state of Virginia is a big pig farming state, so Jewish or Islamic Law or any of the religions that practice vegetarianism would be detrimental to the state.

But why would you want to be required to obey the religious laws of a religion not your own?



Illegal presence is not a crime and so cannot be prosecuted. Illegal entry is a misdemeanor offense, and most caught entering illegally are just sent back...why clog up the courts?
And it is not my understanding that illegal entry or Visa overstays are so much worse than previously so as to now constitute a crisis.

And no, I’ve never heard of any religious reasons affecting US immigration policy in any way (in recent years...religious bigotry was no doubt part of the reason for the Chinese Exclusion Acts)
Why would I want to allow religious practices in the law that I disagree with?? If that were true, why would I allow political practices in the law that I disagree with, then??? You realize that ideology and religion are directly related? Religion is a subset of ideology and the only subset of ideology that can't be in gov't is religion. What did religion do that any other subset of ideology hasn't done and, therefore, can't be in gov't?

Yes. According to the religion part of the first, the gov't couldn't set up, for example, the Episcopalian religion as the state religion but, until the separation of church and state interpretation by Jefferson's SCOTUS, possibly, religion was allowed in gov't. Even though Jefferson wasn't accused of being an atheist, he was not a deist, either.

Now, religion isn't represented at all in gov't. Yet, all other ideologies 'cept religion are represented by gov't.

You noted there is no religious bigotry to prevent immigration laws but I know of religious bigoty that prevents immigration laws from being implemented (there are actual cases of churches housing illegals who cherry-pick a few words and deeds of Christ for justification) and, of course, political bigotry prevents immigration laws from being implemented. Let me refresh your memory about California who won't assist ICE in detaining illegals....You don't think that's immigration law that's being disregarded?

Who gets bigoted against in both scenarios? American citizens, for example. The immigration system is bigoted against.
 
Last edited:
You want to pretend hay is a garden variety Democrat that's on you, he's a hyper partisan statist that does not care whose rights get trampled in the process of implementing his "solutions".

So, if the case named didn't matter why bring up a watershed issue like abortion? Why not Kelo, or Miranda? You made assumptions. You are already making more by demanding I denounce both sides to satisfy your viewpoint. Talk about arguing both sides of an argument never made by your opponent.

You are telling me exactly who you are and all it took was one disagreement.

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk
I demand that you act as though constitutional freedom was a big deal consistantly , rather than go on some virtue-signaling binge over the second amendment and sneer at 'statists' over Federal gun registration.


Its real hard to be a conservative with strong libertarian views, when conservatives only really care about a few liberties, but you don't even really try.
 
I demand that you act as though constitutional freedom was a big deal consistantly , rather than go on some virtue-signaling binge over the second amendment and sneer at 'statists' over Federal gun registration.


Its real hard to be a conservative with strong libertarian views, when conservatives only really care about a few liberties, but you don't even really try.

You asked for a ****ing example. I gave you one. Little late to cry about it now.

As bad as you think conservatives are about civil liberties, progressives are always worse.
 
You asked for a ****ing example. I gave you one. Little late to cry about it now.

As bad as you think conservatives are about civil liberties, progressives are always worse.
Except I have already shown you differently. Progressives are the most likely to vote against those 'law and order' bills that conservatives like so much. Remember those pesky ACLU types always quoting that fourth and first Amendment at the most inconvenient times, and suing so the KKK or Neo Nazi can march right after Mothers against Drunk Driving have finished their march ? You know the ones demanding stronger protections on Miranda, on search and seizure, and demanding a warrant before bugging the Mafia bosses phone, or putting a GPS tracker under someones car bumper. Well they often are progressives, and their allies in Congress tend to be progressives. Those guys are big on freedoms and liberty too. Libertarians like Ron Paul and Huntsman tend to do well for conservatives, as does Bernie Sanders, Booker and Warren on the left side. https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/acl18002_legislative_report_card_v2.pdf


See it all depends on which issues, which freedoms matter most. Progressives care passionately about some, libertarians and conservatives with libertarian streaks like you, care about others.
 
Last edited:
Except I have already shown you differently. Progressives are the most likely to vote against those 'law and order' bills that conservatives like so much. Remember those pesky ACLU types always quoting that fourth and first Amendment at the most inconvenient times, and suing so the KKK or Neo Nazi can march right after Mothers against Drunk Driving have finished their march ? You know the ones demanding stronger protections on Miranda, on search and seizure, and demanding a warrant before bugging the Mafia bosses phone, or putting a GPS tracker under someones car bumper. Well they often are progressives, and their allies in Congress tend to be progressives. Those guys are big on freedoms and liberty too. Libertarians like Ron Paul and Huntsman tend to do well for conservatives, as does Bernie Sanders, Booker and Warren on the left side. https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/acl18002_legislative_report_card_v2.pdf


See it all depends on which issues, which freedoms matter most. Progressives care passionately about some, libertarians and conservatives with libertarian streaks like you, care about others.

Except you mistakenly believe where I stand on them. Keep straw manning. Its all you seem to be good at.
 
Except you mistakenly believe where I stand on them. Keep straw manning. Its all you seem to be good at.
What is the 'them' that I mistaken misconstrue t with respect to your opinion ? Is it people or is it groups or is it issues. I honestly don't know where my mistake lies.
 
What is the 'them' that I mistaken misconstrue t with respect to your opinion ? Is it people or is it groups or is it issues. I honestly don't know where my mistake lies.

Issues. You assume you know where I stand and keep being wrong. Maybe you should stop assuming.
 
Issues. You assume you know where I stand and keep being wrong. Maybe you should stop assuming.
Here's a deal. I promise ask you and to believe what you say you believe and the 'why' behind it , if you promise to ask me and to believe what I say the 'why' is. then we have to grant others the same respect. You have to stop with the 'statist' crap unless you will apply it to both conservatives and liberals and everyone in between.


I can be pretty damn honest about what I believe and why, but there is no point if you won't accept it, because I am 'liberal'.
 
Here's a deal. I promise ask you and to believe what you say you believe and the 'why' behind it , if you promise to ask me and to believe what I say the 'why' is. then we have to grant others the same respect. You have to stop with the 'statist' crap unless you will apply it to both conservatives and liberals and everyone in between.


I can be pretty damn honest about what I believe and why, but there is no point if you won't accept it, because I am 'liberal'.

I never said statist in regards to you. Generally speaking, liberals believe in government solutions to all problems, they turn to the state to solve things. Do you believe in limited government?
 
I never said statist in regards to you. Generally speaking, liberals believe in government solutions to all problems, they turn to the state to solve things. Do you believe in limited government?
Actually I have read the definition of a statist and its actually rather broad. the definition probably would include me. I definitely know what a modern American liberal (The subset you are familiar with) is, better than you do. The word 'all' is not in any definition. I believe in limiting the power of govt in areas where I see its creeping impact as most harmful immoral or dangerous, just as conservatives do, we just disagree about which areas those may be. I certainly am not a libertarian. I give libertarians grudging credit for consistency , but I think in their passion for personal liberty, they neglect other core values such as order, justice, individualism, equality, and community.
 
Actually I have read the definition of a statist and its actually rather broad. the definition probably would include me. I definitely know what a modern American liberal (The subset you are familiar with) is, better than you do. The word 'all' is not in any definition. I believe in limiting the power of govt in areas where I see its creeping impact as most harmful immoral or dangerous, just as conservatives do, we just disagree about which areas those may be. I certainly am not a libertarian. I give libertarians grudging credit for consistency , but I think in their passion for personal liberty, they neglect other core values such as order, justice, individualism, equality, and community.

The arrogance keeps tripping you up. On this site, almost everyone knows what a classic liberal is. Quit assuming you know more than others, its asinine.
 
"[FONT="]We hold [U][B]these truths[/B][/U] to be self-evident, that [B][U]all men are created[/U][/B] equal, that they are endowed [U][B]by their Creator[/B][/U] with certain unalienable Rights..."

[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#555555][FONT="] And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

The Declaration of independence declares that humans were "created" and states a reliance on "divine Providence." Isn't that a violation of the separation of church and state? [/FONT]

T Jefferson was an amazingly brilliant hypocrite, is one reading. But then, that "Declaration" was written before the French Revolutions had even begun; perhaps by not stating the things that he felt were easily inferred, he called those very social norms themselves into question... whether he meant to or not.

Personally i think of that piece as inspired. It's uplifting. It's true art, regardless of its creators intent or his acts which may seem incongruent. As a piece of art, it's not unconstitutional anywhere. It's protected speech.

I'm well aware that this is a bit simple, maybe even simplistic, but it's my opinion on the piece (not to be confused with my opinion on its creator).

____

ETA: It's clearly using poetic license. Does anyone ever actually believe that ALL men are created EQUAL? Of course not. The historical record couldn't be more clear on TJ's opinion of that.

Also, shoutout to Thomas Jefferson Slave Apartments, an average punk band with a better-than-average name. Not all punk band names are created.
 
Last edited:
Displaying our countries birth announcement is not unconstitutional. But it does contain several lies of which were quoted in the OP.

Only you can find a way to declare principles as lies.
 
Only you can find a way to declare principles as lies.

Which was the lie? That Thomas Jefferson claimed all men have equal rights or Jefferson owned human beings as slaves all his adult life?
 
Which was the lie? That Thomas Jefferson claimed all men have equal rights or Jefferson owned human beings as slaves all his adult life?

He wrote that all men were created equal. He didn't say they were equal.
 
He wrote that all men were created equal. He didn't say they were equal.

What about the part where he said their equality and creation gives them all certain rights,,, rights and liberties that that he violated with impunity each and every day of his adult life of his own free will?
 
What about the part where he said their equality and creation gives them all certain rights,,, rights and liberties that that he violated with impunity each and every day of his adult life of his own free will?

Well if you want to overlook the cultural norms of the times, which you conveniently do to serve your retarded politics, then have at it. You're trying to simplify a complex issue, but that's what liberals need since their minds are limited and their understanding of early American history is so tainted. Some people did something, as your Muslim friend in Congress would say; except that time they got the ball rolling toward liberty. It was a step by step process to be sure, it didn't happen for everyone all at once; but eventually it did. But your obtuseness is obvious, since supposedly you taught this, or maybe the skewed version of history in school. The concepts were reasonably pure, in spite of the execution, but nevertheless it was start by WHITE MEN. It wasn't black men in Africa, or Muslims in Saudi Arabia or the Chinese that wrote those words on a piece of paper to declare liberty against tyranny. It was WHITE MEN with slaves, imagine that. Yet these days some people are trying to make being white an evil thing.
 
Well if you want to overlook the cultural norms of the times,

Part of the cultural norms of the times were people opposed to slavery and Jeffersons own writings that slavery was wrong - but he engaged in it anyways.

So do you judge Jefferson on some hollow words he wrote on one day of his early life or do you judge him by his daily actions that he engaged in his whole long adult life? The old adage ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS fits this to a tee.
 
"[FONT="]We hold [U][B]these truths[/B][/U] to be self-evident, that [B][U]all men are created[/U][/B] equal, that they are endowed [U][B]by their Creator[/B][/U] with certain unalienable Rights..."

[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#555555][FONT="] And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

The Declaration of independence declares that humans were "created" and states a reliance on "divine Providence." Isn't that a violation of the separation of church and state? [/FONT]

No. Thomas Jeferson wrote both the Declaration and the phrase separation of church and state and didnt see any conflict between the two.
 
"[FONT="]We hold [U][B]these truths[/B][/U] to be self-evident, that [B][U]all men are created[/U][/B] equal, that they are endowed [U][B]by their Creator[/B][/U] with certain unalienable Rights..."

[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#555555][FONT="] And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

The Declaration of independence declares that humans were "created" and states a reliance on "divine Providence." Isn't that a violation of the separation of church and state? [/FONT]

Not unconstitutional in the slightest...
 
"[FONT="]We hold [U][B]these truths[/B][/U] to be self-evident, that [B][U]all men are created[/U][/B] equal, that they are endowed [U][B]by their Creator[/B][/U] with certain unalienable Rights..."

[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#555555][FONT="] And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

The Declaration of independence declares that humans were "created" and states a reliance on "divine Providence." Isn't that a violation of the separation of church and state? [/FONT]

Though it speaks of divinity it does not delineate and is more rhetorical about western beliefs at the time. So, no it's not a "religious" statement. The Ten Commandments ARE a religious statement.
 
President Trump has declared a Declaration Of Independence of which I fully endorse.

MAGA!
 
Displaying our countries birth announcement is not unconstitutional. But it does contain several lies of which were quoted in the OP.
Bull****. You revisionist crap not withstanding, lies require conscious knowledge that what is being said is not the truth. Hindsight doesn't change that.
 
Back
Top Bottom