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Is displaying the Declaration of Independence in government buildings and schools unconstitutional?

No one in this thread could make people less free than Jefferson did. Because he literally enslaved people.

Kudos to the people throughout history who worked to make his words more true. But it's certainly fair game to point out that he's not one of them.

Its not faire game to call into question everything he wrote and invalidate it because he wrote them. It spits on the graves of all those that worked to make them more true. That's why Haymarket wants---to replace anything politically convenient to him because Jefferson. Its retarded on its face.
 
Joko wants a government sponsored religion?

Better?
Eventually. I had no idea what you meant by “joko.” I didn’t the OP was joko24, who I never heard of. So your comment is kind of s non sequitur...it doesn’t add to or contradict my post at all.
 
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

The Declaration of independence declares that humans were "created" and states a reliance on "divine Providence." Isn't that a violation of the separation of church and state?

...,and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,...

Perhaps the Higgs boson is what is being referred to?

As I was taught, the equality being mentioned was the right to govern ones self, nothing more.
 
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Eventually. I hhttps://www.debatepolitics.com/forum.phpad no idea what you meant by “joko.” I didn’t the OP was joko24, who I never heard of. So your comment is kind of s non sequitur...it doesn’t add to or contradict my post at all.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

The OP is joko104... Hence the use of joko.

It wasn't a non-sequitur.

It was you not knowing who wrote the post.

Your statement "It’s a strawman constructed by those who believe in government sponsored religion " implies you know who posted what.

Since you can't show Joko104 wants government sponsored religion perhaps you can tell us who created a strawman in your eyes.
 
Imperfection doesn't invalidate the laws and ideals of the nation. You aren't being rational, you are searching for reasons to get your petty, vindictive way.

The way a man lives his adult life for every day of his life determines his personal history - not one day where he wrote something flowery and nice. And for decade upon decade upon decade Jefferson owned and kept 600 slaves contrary to the flowery words he penned on one day in 1776.
 
Yes. There is still a lot of religious language which lingers in our culture. I know atheists who exclaim “Jesus Christ!” when they stub their toe. Wouldn’t take it too seriously.

Good advice. Its hard to take Jefferson seriously when his words on one day are the noted exception to decade upon decade of being a slave owner for all his adult life.
 
Good advice. Its hard to take Jefferson seriously when his words on one day are the noted exception to decade upon decade of being a slave owner for all his adult life.

Well, can’t you take his words seriously, although he was a hypocrite?

Hypocrites can certainly make valid points, they can surely speak the the truth, although their own conduct doesn’t conform to that which they have said or written.

For instance, a smoker’s admonishment another shouldn’t smoke because it’s unhealthy, can harm one’s health, can and should be taken seriously, despite their hypocrisy.

In regards to Jefferson, we can take his remarks in the DOI seriously while also acknowledging he fantastically was a hypocrite. His hypocrisy doesn’t reflect upon the veracity of the claims made in the DOI.


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Well, can’t you take his words seriously, although he was a hypocrite?

Hypocrites can certainly make valid points, they can surely speak the the truth, although their own conduct doesn’t conform to that which they have said or written.

For instance, a smoker’s admonishment another shouldn’t smoke because it’s unhealthy, can harm one’s health, can and should be taken seriously, despite their hypocrisy.

In regards to Jefferson, can we take his remarks in the DOI seriously while also acknowledging he fantastically was a hypocrite?


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I think a man should be ultimately judged by how the has lived his life each day. For Jefferson, that means looking at his entire adult life as a slave owner which puts the lie to what he wrote over a few days in July of 1776. I imagine that all people are guilty of hypocrisy at one time or another - myself included. But for most people you do not live a long life of decade upon decade of doing one thing while a few words you once wrote define you in many peoples eyes. That is beyond mere mortal hypocrisy.
 
No. Scalia was an originalist and a textualist. He wrote a book in which he defined both textualism and originalist/originalism. Scalia did not abandon being an originalist or originalism. He was both an advocate for originalism, an originalist, AND textualist. Textualist has a meaning. Originalist/originalism has a meaning. They are not synonymous meanings.

Barnett, Solum, Bork, are originalists and textualists. They aren’t looking for intent or original intent.

And Heller, an opinion written by Scalia, is a defining example of an originalist not concerning themselves with intent. The majority opinion, as written by Scalia, is very much searching for a “reasonable, public meaning” of the 2nd Amendment at or near time of ratification and not giving two cents about intent or original intent. The evidence and methodology used by Scalia in writing the majority opinion is had nothing to do with intent or original intent and everything to do with the reasonable public meaning at or near the time of ratification.

The originalist method in Heller of looking for the reasonable, public meaning. is the same method Scalia used elsewhere, such as his majority opinion Crawford v Washington, his dissent in Lee v Weisman, his concurrence in Citizens United v FEC, his concurrence in Pacific Mutual Life Insurance v Cleopatra Haslip, his dissent in Boumediene v Bush, his dissent in Hamdi v Rumsfeld, his majority opinions of United States v Jones and Florida v Jardines, are his use of original meaning and are not concerned with intent or original intent.

As I told you before, Scalia authored a book condemning intent and original intent.

Original intent enjoyed brief popularity in the easy to middle 80s. Scalia, Barnett, Solum, and other originalists wrote the obituary for original intent. Original intent has a small, and minority number of adherents. Originalists do not concern themselves with intent or original intent.


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Just googled Scalia and Originalism....plenty of quotes and speeches by Scalia that support my claim he was an originalist/textualist. Since I have not read his book, you are using the logical fallacy of proof by authority without proving your sources. From my reading, originalism is the basis for conservative jurists in most cases tempered by textualism when they know originalism is not useful or expedient to justify their own pre-conceived bias. I may be wrong but would ask you to prove it before accepting your personal opinion.
 
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I think a man should be ultimately judged by how the has lived his life each day. For Jefferson, that means looking at his entire adult life as a slave owner which puts the lie to what he wrote over a few days in July of 1776. I imagine that all people are guilty of hypocrisy at one time or another - myself included. But for most people you do not live a long life of decade upon decade of doing one thing while a few words you once wrote define you in many peoples eyes. That is beyond mere mortal hypocrisy.

Right. I’m not defending Jefferson’s hypocrisy.

But Jefferson’s hypocrisy doesn’t mean his claim of all men are created equally is false, anymore than a smoker’s hypocrisy of telling another not to smoke because it is unhealthy renders the claim smoking is unhealthy is false.

Hypocrisy doesn’t invalidate the potential truth of statement, assertion, or a claim.

Jefferson very well may have been a hypocrite, but that doesn’t demonstrate his remarks in the DOI are false.


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Right. I’m not defending Jefferson’s hypocrisy.

But Jefferson’s hypocrisy doesn’t mean his claim of all men are created equally is false, anymore than a smoker’s hypocrisy of telling another not to smoke because it is unhealthy renders the claim smoking is unhealthy is false.

Hypocrisy doesn’t invalidate the potential truth of statement, assertion, or a claim.

Jefferson very well may have been a hypocrite, but that doesn’t demonstrate his remarks in the DOI are false.


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But the man who wrote those words did not even believe them. That is the point.

How can anyone take Jeffersons words seriously when he wrote a series of high sounding platitudes for our nations birth announcement in 1776 but live all of his adult life in a completely different manner? The words he wrote then become just so much empty hype for the moment.They were a temporary means to an end. It was the equal of a press release which served a purpose and then was forgotten.
 
Just googled Scalia and Originalism....plenty of quotes and speeches by Scalia that support my claim he was an originalist/textualist. Since I have not read his book, you are using the logical fallacy of proof by authority without proving your sources. From my reading, originalism is the basis for conservative jurists in most cases tempered by textualism when they know originalism is not useful or expedient to justify their own pre-conceived bias. I may be wrong but would ask you to prove it before accepting your personal opinion.

What are you talking about? I’ve said all along Scalia was both a textualist and originalist.

From my reading, originalism is the basis for conservative jurists in most cases tempered by textualism when they know originalism is not useful or expedient to justify their own pre-conceived bias.

Possible. Where has this occurred?


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Disregard

OK, then we agree on Scalia. Yet you still insist an originalist is not concerned with intent? That is the very definition of the word. As for textualism, didn't Scalia create the concept after facing problems dealing with originalism earlier in his career?
 
But the man who wrote those words did not even believe them. That is the point.

How can anyone take Jeffersons words seriously when he wrote a series of high sounding platitudes for our nations birth announcement in 1776 but live all of his adult life in a completely different manner? The words he wrote then become just so much empty hype for the moment.They were a temporary means to an end. It was the equal of a press release which served a purpose and then was forgotten.

I do not know whether he believed them or not. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn’t. People can and do act contrary to what they believe. So, it would not surprise me if Jefferson acted contrary to something he believed.

But whether he believed them or not doesn’t tell me what he wrote was wrong or false, anymore than a smoker claiming smoking is unhealthy is wrong or false on the basis they do not personally believe it themselves.




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OK, then we agree on Scalia. Yet you still insist an originalist is not concerned with intent? That is the very definition of the word. As for textualism, didn't Scalia create the concept after facing problems dealing with originalism earlier in his career?

No we do not agree. See post number 63. Scalia ascribes to originalism. I even cited to opinions where he used originalism and those opinions came AFTER his book where he explains originalism/textualism.

Below are some of Scalia’s majority opinion, concurrence, or dissent, in which he is using originalism and they came AFTER his book where he defends textualism. None of these opinions written by Scalia focuses on intent. From prior post I said: “(Heller, an opinion written by Scalia, is a defining example of an originalist not concerning themselves with intent. The majority opinion, as written by Scalia, is very much searching for a “reasonable, public meaning” of the 2nd Amendment at or near time of ratification and not giving two cents about intent or original intent. The evidence and methodology used by Scalia in writing the majority opinion is had nothing to do with intent or original intent and everything to do with the reasonable public meaning at or near the time of ratification.

The originalist method in Heller of looking for the reasonable, public meaning. is the same method Scalia used elsewhere, such as his majority opinion Crawford v Washington, his dissent in Lee v Weisman, his concurrence in Citizens United v FEC, his concurrence in Pacific Mutual Life Insurance v Cleopatra Haslip, his dissent in Boumediene v Bush, his dissent in Hamdi v Rumsfeld, his majority opinions of United States v Jones and Florida v Jardines, are his use of original meaning and are not concerned with intent or original intent.)”

And originalists are not concerned with intent. Scalia hated intent. I’m speaking about originalists, as a group, do not obsess over intent. Original intent is a minority view now. Scalia, Bork, and others wrote original intents obituary in the late 80s to early 90s.


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Bull****, a force can't bestow inalienable rights upon you. What comic book did you read that in?

Isn't that an oxymoron? If a right can be bestowed it can be removed, too, so an inalienable right can't be bestowed.
 
I do not know whether he believed them or not. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn’t. People can and do act contrary to what they believe. So, it would not surprise me if Jefferson acted contrary to something he believed.

But whether he believed them or not doesn’t tell me what he wrote was wrong or false, anymore than a smoker claiming smoking is unhealthy is wrong or false on the basis they do not personally believe it themselves.




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I guess it comes down to if you think the daily actions of a man over a long life speak louder than do a series of words he wrote at one point in his early life?

Or - how much weight do you give his daily activities for scores of years versus one thing he wrote on one day of his life?
 
The way a man lives his adult life for every day of his life determines his personal history - not one day where he wrote something flowery and nice. And for decade upon decade upon decade Jefferson owned and kept 600 slaves contrary to the flowery words he penned on one day in 1776.

The Constitution isn't negated, despite your petulant whining.
 
The Constitution isn't negated, despite your petulant whining.

uh - this is embarrassing for you... but ..... - in case you did not realize it - Jefferson never signed nor wrote the Constitution.

We are talking about his work with the Declaration of Independence - of which he is the principal author.

At this point, if you have any pride, you may want to crawl in a hole.
 
uh - this is embarrassing for you... but ..... - in case you did not realize it - Jefferson never signed nor wrote the Constitution.

We are talking about his work with the Declaration of Independence - of which he is the principal author.

At this point, if you have any pride, you may want to crawl in a hole.

Yet you talk about negating the constitution repeatedly because Jefferson. So my comment was on the mark, perhaps the raving lunacy of your posts is off base.
 
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

The OP is joko104... Hence the use of joko.

It wasn't a non-sequitur.

It was you not knowing who wrote the post.

Your statement "It’s a strawman constructed by those who believe in government sponsored religion " implies you know who posted what.

Since you can't show Joko104 wants government sponsored religion perhaps you can tell us who created a strawman in your eyes.
Through all the lawsuits and complaints on imperishable displays of religion, has anyone ever made that claim about the Declaration of Independence? No. Is that because no supporter of Church-Star separation has ever read the DoI? No. So what could be the purpose of the question? It is constructing a false argument for banning religious displays in prefer to easily refute that argument. No other explanation makes any sense.

The question itself is clearly a straw man and I did not need to know the name of the OP to recognize that.
 
Through all the lawsuits and complaints on imperishable displays of religion, has anyone ever made that claim about the Declaration of Independence? No. Is that because no supporter of Church-Star separation has ever read the DoI? No. So what could be the purpose of the question? It is constructing a false argument for banning religious displays in prefer to easily refute that argument. No other explanation makes any sense.

The question itself is clearly a straw man and I did not need to know the name of the OP to recognize that.

Ignorance of the OP noted.
 
Yet you talk about negating the constitution repeatedly because Jefferson. So my comment was on the mark, perhaps the raving lunacy of your posts is off base.

Feel free to quote me.

You made a horses ass out of yourself with your last post and you know it.

Jefferson did not write the Constitution. Maybe you are going to tell us his first name was George? :roll::mrgreen:

Its funny.
 
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